Powerful PSA Might Change The Way You See Domestic Violence - General

Yeah it's a double standard, but us guys are brought up that when a woman does that sort of thing the proper thing to do is just take it. Not plant her one in the side of the face. Even if he had responded in kind to her with her clearly being the aggressor, people would have jumped up to defend her

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44914098]If you want people to think that feminism cares for both genders then you should have said something to milkandcooki when he said that when people laugh at domestic abuse against men it's actually discrimination of women, because that just shows the opposite. Maybe if you people would stop trying to make it look like everything is the fault of men, you'd have a point. You can't go "we feminists fight for equality and we equally care for both men and women" and then say shit like "you can't discriminate men", "men are the fault of all gender roles", "every single gender role has misogynistic roots" if you want to be taken seriously.[/QUOTE] Which is not what he said. Sometimes I ask myself is you deliberately misread posts just to make a point... I'll quote what milkandcooki said "people on the streets perceived the that the women are too weak to significantly harm the man, while people assumed that the man was tough enough to take a beating from her. " He didn't say it was discrimination. He said it came from the fact that people automatically assume that women are weak and can't hurt people, and men are strong and are stoic toughies that can't be hurt. Feminism as a whole aims to get rid of gender roles. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44914098]Maybe if you people would stop trying to make it look like everything is the fault of men[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/d/0/cripes.001.gif[/IMG] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44914098]You can't go "we feminists fight for equality and we equally care for both men and women" and then say shit like "you can't discriminate men"[/QUOTE] No one said you can't discriminate men. Men do not however suffer from institutionalized discrimination. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44914098]"men are the fault of all gender roles[/QUOTE] No one actually said this. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44914098] "every single gender role has misogynistic roots"[/QUOTE] That's pretty much true though. Patriarchy is a system within society that views men as more powerful than women. Gender roles, pay inequality, blatant misogyny, etc., are all examples of patriarchy. if you have ever been called a wimp or a pussy for not living up to the male standard of behavior or beauty, if you have ever had to pay more for car insurance because you are a man and automatically considered more reckless or impulsive based on that, then you are a male victim of patriarchy. Have you ever noticed how the general idea is that it's negative for a man to be feminine, but it's okay for a woman to be masculine? "man up" is positive, but "you're a girl" is insulting. [QUOTE=Appellation;44914300]"Rape culture" originally a term used to justify racism because white wimmin apparently needed the klan's protection.[/QUOTE] I'll call bullshit on that unless you can provide a reputable source. [QUOTE=Appellation;44914300] By pushing the radical (marx based) feminist idea of the patriarchy (look it up) you erode the faith others have in your support of Kantian liberalism.[/QUOTE] The concept of patriarchy doesn't have anything to do with Marxism. It's pretty much Sociology 101. I invite you to read the Wikipedia article's blurb: [quote]Patriarchy is a social system in which males are the primary authority figures central to social organization, occupy roles of political leadership, moral authority and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. The female equivalent is matriarchy. Historically, patriarchy has manifested itself in the social, legal, political, and economic organization of a range of different cultures.[/quote]

Just saying this all sounds very negative towards all men, Max, which would be sexist. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

[QUOTE=Gamerman12;44914666]Just saying this all sounds very negative towards all men, Max, which would be sexist. Correct me if I'm wrong, though.[/QUOTE] That's why you educate yourself and read about issues, instead of having kneejerk reactions based on gut feelings such as "this [I]sounds [/I]sexist towards men!"

"Radical feminism is a perspective within feminism that focuses on the hypothesis of patriarchy as a system of power that ... ‎Liberal feminism - ‎Radical lesbi" Wikipedia works as a source? How's the corvid? [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [url]http://books.google.com/books?id=lP1yAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT637&lpg=PT637&dq=lynching+%22rape+culture%22&source=bl&ots=ot90vCtRbN&sig=eUwzdHHDTbfd0gyj1hfBkING_Ao&hl=en&sa=X&ei=um2DU_DuGYqMqgbljIDIDA&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBw[/url] [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE]The concept of patriarchy doesn't have anything to do with Marxism.[/QUOTE] Regardless of what I say you guys are going to keep with this bologna, huh? [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] Different subfields have different uses of the same terms. When we talk about a sub-field, we stick to it. Since we are discussing feminism, then liberal versus radical needs to be established first.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44914693]That's why you educate yourself and read about issues, instead of having kneejerk reactions based on gut feelings such as "this [I]sounds [/I]sexist towards men!"[/QUOTE] So how is it not? I think you should clarify when you say Men or Male Population, etc. you mean some or most rather then ALL men, because all I've really read from you is the word Men. You yourself are a man, and I assume you aren't apart of this Rape Culture or what have you, so I assume that's what's happening. Unless you really do mean all men, which then we'd be in the realm of sexism. I'm really just asking for clarity with these semantics, not so much to antagonize.

Ah, that's the term I was looking for "Consistency of terms". It's necessary to stick with a sub-field or explain which other one you're pulling from. It's important to meet expectations. Now that's sociology 101....Although maybe not in France.....judging from the rigorous explanation of a paradigm that would make a chimp worry about its own mental soundness: There's more lobbing of waste involved.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44914641]I'll quote what milkandcooki said "people on the streets perceived the that the women are too weak to significantly harm the man, while people assumed that the man was tough enough to take a beating from her. " [I]He didn't say it was discrimination.[/I] [B]He said it came from the fact that people automatically assume that women are weak[/B] and can't hurt people, and men are strong and are stoic toughies that can't be hurt.[/QUOTE] So people assumed that he won't be hurt because they think women are weaklings that can't physically hurt anybody but that's not discrimination of women. [IMG]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/d/0/cripes.001.gif[/IMG] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44914641]No one said you can't discriminate men. Men do not however suffer from institutionalized discrimination.[/QUOTE] Then why spin every instance of discrimination of men as actually misogynistic? [IMG]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/d/0/cripes.001.gif[/IMG] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44914641]No one actually said this.[/QUOTE] Every time I post shit like this it's something I've seen on this forum and every time you people go "nobody has ever said this" I can quote the post that said it. I don't feel like reading thought mountains of crap for the 50th time to get you that post. [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44914641]That's pretty much true though.[/QUOTE] And the next thing you're going to say is that it's men who made the gender roles and who mainly uphold them as they control the media and you'll completely forget that you said that "nobody ever said that it's men's fault lol".[IMG]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/d/0/cripes.001.gif[/IMG] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44914641]Patriarchy is a system within society that views men as more powerful than women. Gender roles, pay inequality, blatant misogyny, etc., are all examples of patriarchy. if you have ever been called a wimp or a pussy for not living up to the male standard of behavior or beauty, if you have ever had to pay more for car insurance because you are a man and automatically considered more reckless or impulsive based on that, then you are a male victim of patriarchy. Have you ever noticed how the general idea is that it's negative for a man to be feminine, but it's okay for a woman to be masculine? "man up" is positive, but "you're a girl" is insulting.[/QUOTE] Thank you for explaining the same thing you explain to everyone in every thread and act like you're still the only one who understands.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44912889]Feminism is egalitarian — you should go back to the first page and read my post.[/QUOTE] Max, I would assume you know Beauvoir's work and probably Butler's interpretations, so I would imagine you know the pitfalls of both. Any gender studies professor will tell you The Second Sex is hardly egalitarian. When the two categories of people are the other and men, who have the "male monopoly on subjectivity", who alone have the right to see themselves as a subject and not an object, there's no need to include them. I still agree with you completely, since third-wave feminism [I]is[/I] egalitarian, but the antquated roots of Beauvoir's work are still considered the de-facto feminist manifesto by some people and that's a problem. Nothing makes feminism appear more anti-men to people that don't understand it than groups of protesters relying on outdated points on self and the modern world.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44915010]So people assumed that he won't be hurt because they think women are weaklings that can't physically hurt anybody but that's not discrimination of women. [IMG]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/d/0/cripes.001.gif[/IMG].[/QUOTE] Assumptions from gender roles are not discrimination. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44915010]Then why spin every instance of discrimination of men as actually misogynistic? [IMG]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/d/0/cripes.001.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE] Because the reasoning behind most of them is rooted in misogynistic beliefs? [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44915010]And the next thing you're going to say is that it's men who made the gender roles and who mainly uphold them as they control the media and you'll completely forget that you said that "nobody ever said that it's men's fault lol".[IMG]http://fi.somethingawful.com/safs/smilies/d/0/cripes.001.gif[/IMG] [/QUOTE] Gender roles aren't men's fault (they're a result of the patriarchal roots of society). But they're primarily upheld by men. [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Super Muffin;44915182]Max, I would assume you know Beauvoir's work and probably Butler's interpretations, so I would imagine you know the pitfalls of both. Any gender studies professor will tell you The Second Sex is hardly egalitarian. When the two categories of people are the other and men, who have the "male monopoly on subjectivity", who alone have the right to see themselves as a subject and not an object, there's no need to include them. I still agree with you completely, since third-wave feminism [I]is[/I] egalitarian, but the antquated roots of Beauvoir's work are still considered the de-facto feminist manifesto by some people and that's a problem. Nothing makes feminism appear more anti-men to people that don't understand it than groups of protesters relying on outdated points on self and the modern world.[/QUOTE] But I'm not talking about, or even bringing up Beauvoir, so what does this have to do with what I said?

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915192]Assumptions from gender roles are not discrimination. Because the reasoning behind most of them is rooted in misogynistic beliefs? Gender roles aren't men's fault (they're a result of the patriarchal roots of society). But they're primarily upheld by men. [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] But I'm not talking about, or even bringing up Beauvoir, so what does this have to do with what I said?[/QUOTE] When you bring up someone's work, even unknowingly, you bring them up as well.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915192] But I'm not talking about, or even bringing up Beauvoir, so what does this have to do with what I said?[/QUOTE] This line here. "Nothing makes feminism appear more anti-men to people that don't understand it than groups of protesters relying on outdated points on self and the modern world." To spell it out, we're on the same page but I'm saying I get why some people find it hard to believe feminism is egalitarian.

[QUOTE=Appellation;44915223]When you bring up someone's work, even unknowingly, you bring them up as well.[/QUOTE] Long story short: Just because you know nothing of what you're debating (IE you don't know the difference between Kantian liberal feminism and Marxist conflict theory radical feminism) doesn't mean that you can use your ignorance as an excuse. You are however, completely free to continue ignoring all posts you can't come up with a proper response for. [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] So please, continue to leave all stones unturned when It comes to the philosophical and stick to your baseless (made so by your lack of understanding) ideology. [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] In fact, I'd recommend staying away from this thread until you take the time to study the philosophical underpinnings of your ideology, Max.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44912618]A philosophy concerning gender & gender relations completely neglects how the current system affects men? What an enlightening overview... I don't know anyone who calls themselves a feminist who also isn't an egalitarian. It's not like you can't be an egalitarian who happens to focus on gender equality between women and men, just as you can be an egalitarian who focuses on race relations or LGBT issues. It's like how you can be against American foreign intervention because the cost of the war in Iraq was absurd, or you can be against it because you believe in non-interventionism, or because you are a pacifist who doesn't believe in conflict whatsoever. There is overlap. Feminism is a subset of egalitarianism because it involves enforcing gender equality through focusing on issues women have in society, and remedying those issues with the end goal of achieving a general social betterment for all genders and sexes. The focus is on women's issues, but the idea is that by fixing those issues you can fix them for everyone in relation to them, e.g. feminine gender roles in relation to masculine ones that lead to men being forced to behave opposite to feminine ones whether they want to or not. "for every girl who's told she can't do math, there's a boy who feels he can't be an artist" ; "for every girl treated as delicate, there's a boy who's told he shouldn't cry". Anyone who wishes to talk about feminism should know all of this. It is pretty much as egalitarian a movement as you can get. [url]http://time.com/40110/rape-culture-is-real/[/url] At the vaguest, most basic level, feminism calls for equality between the sexes. That includes taking male victims of domestic violence and sexual assault seriously. Do you know what "patriarchy" means? Patriarchy is a series of prejudices and gender roles; most but [B]not all[/B] of which happen to benefit men over women, that have been ingrained into a culture as a result of hundreds of years of sexism. It is perpetuated by people accepting those stereotypes at face value and allowing them to influence your behavior. "The patriarchy" is the current socially accepted (and passively enforced) mentality that dictates that men can't be raped because they're men and are supposed to get all the sex they can handle all the time. "The patriarchy" is the social norms that say guys are masculine and only like race cars and grillin' burgers, girls are frilly and play with barbies and sweep floors and can't be breadwinners. Do you see why feminists fight against that idea? For the betterment of [I]everyone[/I]?[/QUOTE] Its like when your mod was taken away you really unleashed your true power level Max, holy fuck.

Just as base starting points, I'd recommend "Arguing About Political Philosophy", "The Individual and the Political Order", and "The Working Poor: Invisible in America" [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=HoodedSniper;44915386]Its like when your mod was taken away you really unleashed your true power level Max, holy fuck.[/QUOTE] Let's forget about that dark chapter in Facepunch history (There's a [B]very[/B] good reason why he wasn't allowed to keep his modship once he was no longer under Garry's protection.) And stick to the topic at hand.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44912814] Rape culture is when male victims of sexual violence aren't believed because "don't guys want to have sex all the time anyway" ?[/QUOTE] This is a pretty good point and one that MRA's could use to great effect in a world where they actually cared about men's issues. [QUOTE=Impact1986;44912805]Well if you dont want to be associated with said radical feminist which only focus on female issues, why not just call yourself egalitarian if you are caring about the issues of all genders?[/QUOTE] I love this post because it's in reply to a long series of points and examples about how feminism is itself an egalitarian movement because the core tenant of feminism in the current context is equality. You're basically acknowledging that feminism is egalitarian but still choosing to associate it with a radical feminist you found somewhere. These threads are [I]amazing[/I]. [QUOTE=Rangergxi;44913388]Whats terrible is that alot of people (even on this forum) want to prioritize women's issues at the cost of ignoring issues facing men.[/QUOTE] So are you going to quantify this post with anything or is it just yet another unsubstantiated drive-by shitpost by rangergxi in a debate thread.

[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;44915386]Its like when your mod was taken away you really unleashed your true power level Max, holy fuck.[/QUOTE] Please elaborate? [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Appellation;44915397]Let's forget about that dark chapter in Facepunch history (There's a [B]very[/B] good reason why he wasn't allowed to keep his modship once he was no longer under Garry's protection.) And stick to the topic at hand.[/QUOTE] Hahaha man, gotta love how you just make baseless claims without knowing anything about how it happened

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915192]Assumptions from gender roles are not discrimination.[/QUOTE] So stereotyping genders and acting on these stereotypes isn't discrimination now? You're getting lost in your bullshit. [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915192]Because the reasoning behind most of them is rooted in misogynistic beliefs?[/QUOTE] So no one said you can't discriminate men but you're going to remind everyone on every instance of discrimination of men that the reason they are discriminated is misogyny in the first place? But you're still fighting for equality and care equally for men's issues? You are really getting lost in your bullshit. [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915192]Gender roles aren't men's fault (they're a result of the patriarchal roots of society). But they're primarily upheld by men.[/QUOTE] So even though all gender roles have misogynistic beginnings and they are primary upheld by men to this day no one has ever actually said that gender roles are men's fault? You are completely lost in your bullshit now. Everything you've said is contradictory, you should think about this more.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915496]Please elaborate? [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] Hahaha man, gotta love how you just make baseless claims without knowing anything about how it happened[/QUOTE] Don't elaborate. He is trying to get you banned for derailing. [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915496]Please elaborate? [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] Hahaha man, gotta love how you just make baseless claims without knowing anything about how it happened[/QUOTE] Fine, please let It be noted that I was asked to go off topic. Why were you made a mod? How often were you banned before that? Do the answers to those questions provide any clues? [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] Why are you not addressing questions directed towards you that you find difficult to answer? Why do you keep refocusing the debate?

[QUOTE=Appellation;44915533]Why are you not addressing questions directed towards you that you find difficult to answer? Why do you keep refocusing the debate?[/QUOTE] Hey dude, I'm not the one derailing the thread with "wow max i'm glad you're not a mod anymore!!"

late

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915622]Hey dude, I'm not the one derailing the thread with "wow max i'm glad you're not a mod anymore!!"[/QUOTE] So, you acknowledge it as derailing yet you've consistently asked for more. Isn't derailing a bannable offence? Starting to miss those mod powers, huh? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trolling" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;44915517]So stereotyping genders and acting on these stereotypes isn't discrimination now? You're getting lost in your bullshit.[/QUOTE] Yes! There's a clear difference between active discrimination and gender roles. Acting on those gender roles to deny you something (e.g. women getting rejected from dangerous jobs while a man with the same skills doesn't) is discrimination. I'm sorry to break it to you Silly Sil but there is a distinction to be made here. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44915517]So no one said you can't discriminate men but you're going to remind everyone on every instance of discrimination of men that the reason they are discriminated is misogyny in the first place? But you're still fighting for equality and care equally for men's issues? You are really getting lost in your bullshit.[/QUOTE] I feel more like it's you who's getting lost tbh [QUOTE=Silly Sil;44915517]So even though all gender roles have misogynistic beginnings and they are primary upheld by men to this day no one has ever actually said that gender roles are men's fault? You are completely lost in your bullshit now. Everything you've said is contradictory, you should think about this more.[/QUOTE] Gender roles aren't men's fault, but they are primarily held by men because of the nature of our society (patriarchal). I can't think of a simpler way to put it so honestly if you still can't understand I'm gonna start getting worried for you Silly Sil

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915622]Hey dude, I'm not the one derailing the thread with "wow max i'm glad you're not a mod anymore!!"[/QUOTE] And besides, you're one of the very few that is not glad, so your lack of exuberance is expected. [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915683]Yes! There's a clear difference between active discrimination and gender roles. Acting on those gender roles to deny you something (e.g. women getting rejected from dangerous jobs while a man with the same skills doesn't) is discrimination. I'm sorry to break it to you Silly Sil but there is a distinction to be made here. I feel more like it's you who's getting lost tbh Gender roles aren't men's fault, but they are primarily held by men because of the nature of our society (patriarchal). I can't think of a simpler way to put it so honestly if you still can't understand I'm gonna start getting worried for you Silly Sil[/QUOTE] You're worried? You still won't acknowledge a difference between liberal feminism and radical feminism. You're simply cherry picking targets to make yourself look good, not debating. Your paternalistic (if fake) concern for silly Sil is insulting given your own situation. [editline]26th May 2014[/editline] [url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_feminism[/url] [url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_feminism[/url] It's the difference between Structuralism and conflict theory (Oh hi Marx). In other worda, Soc 101.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915683]Yes! There's a clear difference between active discrimination and gender roles. Acting on those gender roles to deny you something (e.g. women getting rejected from dangerous jobs while a man with the same skills doesn't) is discrimination.[/QUOTE] You make no sense, you answer "yes" and then try to counter what I said. I ask you again: is stereotyping people AND ACTING on these stereotypes discrimination or not? Because supposedly the people in the vid ACTED on the stereotype of women being too weak to hurt anybody. That would be discrimination. [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915683]I'm sorry to break it to you Silly Sil but there is a distinction to be made here.[/QUOTE] Distinction between acting and not acting on gender roles and/or stereotypes? What? Well yeah who would have thought. And what the fuck is even a gender role that isn't acted on? If a gender role wasn't acted on, it wouldn't exist. You make no sense again. [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915683]I feel more like it's you who's getting lost tbh[/QUOTE] Explain where because I simply rephrased what you said into one sentence. [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915683]Gender roles aren't men's fault, but they are primarily held by men because of the nature of our society (patriarchal). I can't think of a simpler way to put it so honestly if you still can't understand I'm gonna start getting worried for you Silly Sil[/QUOTE] Gender roles have misogynistic beginnings. That's what you said. And they are upheld mostly by men. That's also what you said. But they aren't men's fault. Sorry, that makes no sense. If a group of people created unjust social standards and upholds them, they are responsible for those standards. You can't make contradictory claims and when questioned repeat the same thing and say "if you don't get it you're dumb" (in a more sophisticated way).

Feminists are saying that all men are rapists. Now isn't that sexist? Hmm.. only as sexist as saying that all women are gold diggers.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;44915484] So are you going to quantify this post with anything or is it just yet another unsubstantiated drive-by shitpost by rangergxi in a debate thread.[/QUOTE] I post examples everytime we have one of these discussions. Perhaps I should archive or bookmark the crazy posts. Whats with it always coming down to throwing personal insults? [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915683] Gender roles aren't men's fault, but they are primarily held by men because of the nature of our society (patriarchal).l[/QUOTE] What do you have to prove this? Women do most of the child raising and a large chunk of the educating in our society. I wouldn't be surprised if a a fair share of them enforced or encouraged gender roles.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;44915683] Gender roles aren't men's fault, but they are primarily held by men because of the nature of our society (patriarchal). I can't think of a simpler way to put it so honestly if you still can't understand I'm gonna start getting worried for you Silly Sil[/QUOTE] You say that like gender roles are a bad thing.

Video has been taken down?

This shit actually happens, just an FYI. My experience was with a hammer :(