[QUOTE=Shadaez;39929856]Would you please stop taking things out of context, it's clear what I meant. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by saying I don't play games and attacking me personally, but it's not making you look any better.[/QUOTE]
You are right it was clear what you meant.
"pick a female character in a game at random and it'll be a poor female character"-Shadaez
Clear as fucking day, stop trying to backtrack, you straight up implied that all female characters are poorly portrayed or bad in video games.
No other way to interrupt what you said.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39929877]You are right it was clear what you meant.
"pick a female character in a game at random and it'll be a poor female character"-Shadaez
Clear as fucking day, stop trying to backtrack, you straight up implied that all female characters are poorly portrayed or bad in video games.
No other way to interrupt what you said.[/QUOTE]
He probably intended to word it more like
"pick a female character in a game at random and it'll [i]most likely[/i] be a poor female character"
Which I would disagree with though.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;39929852]You sure because it says...
[b]Table 3: Values for a More Feminist Television Landscape[/b][/QUOTE]
[img]http://puu.sh/2itv9[/img]
I was referring to the other one, my bad. Still it doesn't say it's reserved for men, just that for men it's a positive thing, and for women it's irrelevant to whether or not they should be thought of as a positive character. I disagree that strength should always be considered good, but she never said it was reserved in any way to men.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;39929857]What are some negative female characters?
[editline]16th March 2013[/editline]
Yes, but this video explains why it isn't degrading, and isn't a problem.[/QUOTE]
I don't get why he or you get to decide what a woman things is degrading.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39929642] pick a female character in a game at random and it'll be a poor female character[/QUOTE]
alyx vance is not a poor female character.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39929918][img]http://puu.sh/2itv9[/img]
I was referring to the other one, my bad. Still it doesn't say it's reserved for men, just that for men it's a positive thing, and for women it's irrelevant to whether or not they should be thought of as a positive character. I disagree that strength should always be considered good, but she never said it was reserved in any way to men.
I don't get why he or you get to decide what a woman things is degrading.[/QUOTE]
Then who fucking decides whats degrading? The characters?
[editline]16th March 2013[/editline]
Why is being strong even relevant for if a male character should be thought of as a positive character? That doesn't seem sexist?
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39929877]You are right it was clear what you meant.
"pick a female character in a game at random and it'll be a poor female character"-Shadaez
Clear as fucking day, stop trying to backtrack, you straight up implied that all female characters are poorly portrayed or bad in video games.
No other way to interrupt what you said.[/QUOTE]
Do you do this to everyone you talk to? MadPro knows what I was trying to say, everyone knows what I'm trying to say, and I feel like you know what I'm trying to say you're just picking at details rather than actually attack the substance of what I'm really saying. Leaving out the words "and it will most likely be" to exaggerate a point doesn't detract from what I'm saying. If I say you'll never win the lotto it doesn't mean I'm saying it's literally impossible to win it, just really unlikely. Cut it out, I'm actually being civil now so I'd appreciate if you actually tried a little.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheJoey;39929922]alyx vance is not a poor female character.[/QUOTE]
ok really do you know what random means
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39929918][img]http://puu.sh/2itv9[/img]
I was referring to the other one, my bad. Still it doesn't say it's reserved for men, just that for men it's a positive thing, and for women it's irrelevant to whether or not they should be thought of as a positive character. I disagree that strength should always be considered good, but she never said it was reserved in any way to men.[/QUOTE]
you don't even understand it, do you? it doesn't matter whether it is a male or female expressing those traits, a man who is hysterical and weak is showing the bad sides femininity just like a woman who is strong shows the positive sides of masculinity. they are certain cultural traits that are associated with different gender roles.
the issue people take is putting stupid shit like lacking self-confidence or being in control of themselves in either masculine or feminine when they are just as good in either and don't need to be on there at all. it's retarded to claim that women exhibiting masculine traits aren't as valid, but putting everything ambiguous into masculine traits distorts it horribly.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39929959]ok really do you know what random means[/QUOTE]
oops guess im just a dummy
The Boss from metal gear solid 3
excuse me while i keep naming good strong female characters in video games
[QUOTE=MadPro119;39929928]Then who fucking decides whats degrading? The characters?[/quote]
Women can decide for themselves. You're kinda telling people what to feel if you say not to be offended by things.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;39929928]
Why is being strong even relevant for if a male character should be thought of as a positive character? That doesn't seem sexist?[/QUOTE]
She's saying 'to make a more feminist TV landscape' which I agree with, it's not the [i]ideal[/i] but it's definitely better. You should read her paper if you want to understand the graph, the video takes it out of context.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=TheJoey;39929988]oops guess im just a dummy
The Boss from metal gear solid 3
excuse me while i keep naming good strong female characters in video games[/QUOTE]
OK keep rambling, I've already clarified the point I was trying to make but I'll do it again.
Most female characters are bad.
There! Read that and understand that picking out all the good ones doesn't mean that there's not thousands of bad ones.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39922727]holy shit he literally used misandric im done with this lmao[/QUOTE]
What is the only big-title game in which you move on to the next stage by using problem solving and wit as opposed to brute force?
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39929994]Women can decide for themselves. You're kinda telling people what to feel if you say not to be offended by things.
She's saying 'to make a more feminist TV landscape' which I agree with, it's not the [i]ideal[/i] but it's definitely better. You should read her paper if you want to understand the graph, the video takes it out of context.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
OK keep rambling, I've already clarified the point I was trying to make but I'll do it again.
Most female characters are bad.
There! Read that and understand that picking out all the good ones doesn't mean that there's not thousands of bad ones.[/QUOTE]
Name like 6 of the thousands of bad ones? Theres plenty of bad male characters as well.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;39929987]you don't even understand it, do you? it doesn't matter whether it is a male or female expressing those traits, a man who is hysterical and weak is showing the bad sides femininity just like a woman who is strong shows the positive sides of masculinity. they are certain cultural traits that are associated with different gender roles.
the issue people take is putting stupid shit like lacking self-confidence or being in control of themselves in either masculine or feminine when they are just as good in either and don't need to be on there at all. it's retarded to claim that women exhibiting masculine traits aren't as valid, but putting everything ambiguous into masculine traits distorts it horribly.[/QUOTE]
I'm understanding the graph more, she's saying lacking traditionally feminine traits should be considered bad for men, but having them doesn't necessarily make them good, and the opposite.
Like, women [i]should be[/i] nurturing, and men [i]should not[/i] lack that quality, and in the same way men should not be thought of as bad just because they're weak and women shouldn't be thought of as good just because they're strong. A feminist character isn't as simple as flipping the gender of a male character basically, they should exhibit traditionally positive womanly traits while also not lacking in traditionally positive manly traits.
[QUOTE=ravenhurst;39930004]What is the only big-title game in which you move on to the next stage by using problem solving and wit as opposed to brute force?[/QUOTE]
Portal where you are a female character?
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39929994]Most female characters are bad.[/QUOTE]
lara croft from the newest tomb raider
a lot of female characters were bad in games made in the past. but video games are still an ongoing industry that is growing and maturing. lara croft is a pretty good example of this shown in action. writers are getting it. theyre writing more mature, strong, or otherwise well-written female characters in their story-driven games.
i dont see how you can look at a video, the first video of a series, that talks about mario and double dragon, and other games deeply rooted in older lore, and say "yeah man video games are sexist as hell she's right". she barely made a point. sorry, im still not impressed.
[editline]16th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=ravenhurst;39930004]What is the only big-title game in which you move on to the next stage by using problem solving and wit as opposed to brute force?[/QUOTE]
portal 2. tomb raider in some of the puzzle sections of the game, or even in some combat sections depending on how you play.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39929994]Women can decide for themselves. You're kinda telling people what to feel if you say not to be offended by things.
She's saying 'to make a more feminist TV landscape' which I agree with, it's not the [i]ideal[/i] but it's definitely better. You should read her paper if you want to understand the graph, the video takes it out of context.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
OK keep rambling, I've already clarified the point I was trying to make but I'll do it again.
Most female characters are bad.
There! Read that and understand that picking out all the good ones doesn't mean that there's not thousands of bad ones.[/QUOTE]
If women can decide for themselves then why are you telling us that all female characters are bad.
I know you arent a girl.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;39929987]you don't even understand it, do you? it doesn't matter whether it is a male or female expressing those traits, a man who is hysterical and weak is showing the bad sides femininity just like a woman who is strong shows the positive sides of masculinity. they are certain cultural traits that are associated with different gender roles.
the issue people take is putting stupid shit like lacking self-confidence or being in control of themselves in either masculine or feminine when they are just as good in either and don't need to be on there at all. it's retarded to claim that women exhibiting masculine traits aren't as valid, but putting everything ambiguous into masculine traits distorts it horribly.[/QUOTE]
The worst part is that some characters can start with negative traits and grow to better ones. Even most static characters have specific reasons for having certain traits.
A lot of Greek stories have their heroes always have one tragic flaw. And that flaw is always there to teach a moral or lesson, nothing else. Like the tale Narcissus and him falling in love with his own reflection. The Greeks weren't sexist and thought men should always admire themselves and be arrogant about it. It was to tell people to not be fucking stupid and think you're perfect.
There are certain traits though in various media that negatively portray women,but who decides that? If a female character is a good mom, is it sexist because they made the woman a mom? If she was a bad mom, would that still be sexist because it portrays women as bad moms? Even if it was neutral, where the female character was a good mom in some scenarios and bad in others, people would just cherry pick the traits presented to push their agenda.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;39930037] is it sexist because they made the woman a mom?[/QUOTE]
cooking mama is sexist because the woman, the mother, is slaving on the meal for her children and possibly husband.
whoa look at that spin. this shit is easy. $150k pls
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930017]I'm understanding the graph more, she's saying lacking traditionally feminine traits should be considered bad for men, but having them doesn't necessarily make them good, and the opposite. [/QUOTE]
Not to pick on you, but anyone looking at that masters paper or whatever it is should just ignore it entirely. That paper she wrote was obviously to prove/argue one thing, not argue both sides equally.
AKA it's a bad source.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;39930016]Name like 6 of the thousands of bad ones? Theres plenty of bad male characters as well.[/QUOTE]
Bad characters don't stick in our minds because they're just easily forgettable, I'm having a hard time listing a few.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;39930054]Not to pick on you, but anyone looking at that masters paper or whatever it is should just ignore it entirely. That paper she wrote was obviously to prove/argue one thing, not argue both sides equally.
AKA it's a bad source.[/QUOTE]
Argueing both sides doesn't make your argument better unless you're doing a high school research paper.
Look at how sexist Mario is, rescuing a woman who is in line to rule an entire kingdom by a man who loves her. In 13 games. Peach herself though is a strong playable character in 46 games.
[editline]16th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930061]Bad characters don't stick in our minds because they're just easily forgettable, I'm having a hard time listing a few.
[/QUOTE]
But its such a [I]huge [/I]problem plaguing today's game industry.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;39930037]There are certain traits though in various media that negatively portray women,but who decides that? If a female character is a good mom, is it sexist because they made the woman a mom? If she was a bad mom, would that still be sexist because it portrays women as bad moms? Even if it was neutral, where the female character was a good mom in some scenarios and bad in others, people would just cherry pick the traits presented to push their agenda.[/QUOTE]
A woman being a mother shouldn't decide whether or not they're a positive female character.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=MadPro119;39930069]Look at how sexist Mario is, rescuing a woman who is in line to rule an entire kingdom by a man who loves her. In 13 games. Peach herself though is a strong playable character in 46 games.
[/quote]
don't do this please
[QUOTE=MadPro119;39930069]
But its such a [I]huge [/I]problem plaguing today's game industry.[/QUOTE]
Look it's fine that you don't care about it, I just don't understand why people feel the need to attack her.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930080]A woman being a mother shouldn't decide whether or not they're a positive female character.[/QUOTE]
ok thanks for agreeing with me but no real need to regurgitate what I already said.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39930032]If women can decide for themselves then why are you telling us that all female characters are bad.
I know you arent a girl.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying they should or shouldn't find something demeaning, I'm saying that they do find it demeaning and you're saying they shouldn't feel demeaned. There's a big difference.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930080]
Look it's fine that you don't care about it, I just don't understand why people feel the need to attack her.[/QUOTE]
Uhh because the shit she said was stupid? Go to any other thread on here where people post videos of people saying stupid shit. There's always people who attack the people in the videos. If you don't see any the MLP presentation videos are always a good example.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930017]I'm understanding the graph more, she's saying lacking traditionally feminine traits should be considered bad for men, but having them doesn't necessarily make them good, and the opposite.
Like, women [i]should be[/i] nurturing, and men [i]should not[/i] lack that quality, and in the same way men should not be thought of as bad just because they're weak and women shouldn't be thought of as good just because they're strong. A feminist character isn't as simple as flipping the gender of a male character basically, they should exhibit traditionally positive womanly traits while also not lacking in traditionally positive manly traits.[/QUOTE]
why does it matter at all? male characters don't all exhibit solely male traits and you're hard pressed to find one that doesn't cooperate or is rational and objective so they already exhibit supposed feminine traits along with masculine traits. then what difference does it make to swap the gender because they already exhibit both masculine and feminine traits?
the real issue is shoehorning in feminine traits just because you think they're not feminine enough. making the boss knit in her spare time because she doesn't exhibit enough female traits isfar more damaging to the impression of women because it demands that they must always be feminine rather than having their own choice of expression. this is not how you make good female characters and it's far from making a better impression of women.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;39930092]ok thanks for agreeing with me but no real need to regurgitate what I already said.[/QUOTE]
I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to prove, though. No one said being a mother should matter. I'm not trying to start something or whatever I just don't understand.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930116]I'm honestly not sure what point you're trying to prove, though. No one said being a mother should matter. I'm not trying to start something or whatever I just don't understand.[/QUOTE]
Some people in this thread were still stuck on the idea of Anita stating that certain traits belong to certain genders. I was just clarifying that anyone will do that in an attempt to be convincing, even if it's stupid.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;39930111]the real issue is shoehorning in feminine traits just because you think they're not feminine enough. making the boss knit in her spare time because she doesn't exhibit enough female traits isfar more damaging to the impression of women because it demands that they must always be feminine rather than having their own choice of expression. this is not how you make good female characters and it's far from making a better impression of women.[/QUOTE]
... first sentence was pretty repulsive. Breaking stereotypes is a good thing, and doing things stereotypical of the other gender shouldn't be considered bad.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930080]Look it's fine that you don't care about it, I just don't understand why people feel the need to attack her.[/QUOTE]
Feminism used to be valid back when society's attitudes towards women would prevent them from carrying out their goals but it is no longer about women being able to do what men do. Now it is about women having 75% rights to their kids. Now it is about harsher penalties for assault on women than on men. This bullshit feminism isn't real feminism. Real feminism is about women learning to defend their own damn honor. Sure men hold open doors for women but these are just cultural things. Real feminism is about equality but nowadays neofeminists in America just want more, more, more.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;39930140]Some people in this thread were still stuck on the idea of Anita stating that certain traits belong to certain genders. I was just clarifying that anyone will do that in an attempt to be convincing, even if it's stupid.[/QUOTE]
OK I'd say a woman being a mother shouldn't be negative but a woman dealing with societal pressure to have children should be positive. That would be a good example of something a positive female character in a show would deal with, though I don't think it could really fit in most games. Showing and dealing with societal pressures is good.
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