Feminism versus FACTS (RE Damsel in distress) - General

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39930737]it should be pretty damn obvious when a [b]girl[/b] is able to actually consent to sex. if it isn't then you probably have a serious problem.[/QUOTE] Oh, but men are always consenting, right? regardless of how drunk they are, so that means that their level of intoxication is irrelevant?

[QUOTE=soulharvester;39930742]Did you even read the post? They all got drunk, and she had already been having sexual contact before getting intoxicated, it was 2 girls and a guy, the one who 'felt she had been raped' of course having had a boyfriend. In what way is it rape if they all get intoxicated?[/QUOTE] she wouldn't have done if it she was sober, he would have... as is shown in him bragging about how great it was

[QUOTE=soulharvester;39930753]Oh, but men are always consenting, right? regardless of how drunk they are, so that means that their level of intoxication is irrelevant?[/QUOTE] come to me with this post when men being taken advantage of while drunk becomes a serious issue. it's happened before, yea, and it's totally not right. it's just a minority though.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930760]she wouldn't have done if it she was sober, he would have... as is shown in him bragging about how great it was[/QUOTE] She was sober while engaging in foreplay? Also why is it that her level of intoxication matters, if his does not? How do you know he would have committed sexual acts on an intoxicated girl, had he himself not been so? So, Theoretically if a man got drunk, and had sex with a sober female, this would be rape, correct?

[QUOTE=soulharvester;39930780]She was sober while engaging in foreplay? Also why is it that her level of intoxication matters, if his does not? How do you know he would have committed sexual acts on an intoxicated girl, had he himself not been so?[/QUOTE] she was drunk to begin with and got more drunk later [QUOTE=soulharvester;39930780] So, Theoretically if a man got drunk, and had sex with a sober female, this would be rape, correct?[/QUOTE] potentially, but not necessarily edit: would say the same thing if roles were reversed

Like I've said in earlier threads about this, rape is a difficult topic. Especially when mixed with alcohol. MRAs think that if somebody's drunk and has sex with other drunk people, it should not be considered rape. Even that is too lenient for me, as rape where both parties are drunk is still definitely possible. That's really the only touchy subject between MRA and feminism - as you said, most of the other top ones are legitimate issues. MRAs have a tendency to exaggerate the amount of false rape accusations, and feminists have a tendency to exaggerate the amount of misogyny in MRA groups. The only real fix for this is to get rid of the social stigma for reporting rapes as quickly as possible. That's an incredibly difficult thing to do, but it's one that's necessary. While that's happening, there needs to be a better legal system for rape cases. The difficulty now comes in providing evidence.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930791]potentially, but not necessarily edit: would say the same thing if roles were reversed[/QUOTE] But I thought that non-consenting sex was rape, Apparently you can't consent while drunk, therefore it is always necessarily rape? edit: Yeah but Isak, that's where we find the problem, is that when it's a women whose drunk, it's ALWAYS classified as rape. And if you argue that she can't have consented while drunk, and therefore it is automatically rape, then the same must be true of both genders. But as soon as you push this, oh, it's only potentially rape, as in, if they complain after the fact that they wouldn't have done so.

[QUOTE=soulharvester;39930807]But I thought that non-consenting sex was rape, Apparently you can't consent while drunk, therefore it is always necessarily rape?[/QUOTE] You can have implied consent if you know the person and have talked about the issue with them prior, or simply know they're OK with it.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39930760]she wouldn't have done if it she was sober, he would have... as is shown in him bragging about how great it was[/QUOTE] i don't know the particular case, but for the sake of argument/reasonable discourse, is it always a horrendous(by the i mean rapey) thing if one or more parties regret otherwise consensual sex while drunk? it's happened to me, and it's totally shitty to regret having sex with someone(especially when it fucks up your friendship), but a rape accusation is also totally shitty when you arguably didn't do anything morally wrong. i mean if the guy didn't have ulterior motives to get her drunk for a 3some, and wasn't doing it to be slimy, then it sucks that he has to be publicly or privately shamed for sex. i do think bragging about it shows a bit of insecurity and neediness on the guy's part though. that's of course in a hypothetical situation that may or may not correlate with the actual story in question.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39930819]i don't know the particular case, but for the sake of argument/reasonable discourse, is it always a horrendous(by the i mean rapey) thing if one or more parties regret otherwise consensual sex while drunk? it's happened to me, and it's totally shitty to regret having sex with someone(especially when it fucks up your friendship), but a rape accusation is also totally shitty when you arguably didn't do anything morally wrong. i mean if the guy didn't have ulterior motives to get her drunk for a 3some, and wasn't doing it to be slimy, then it sucks that he has to be publicly or privately shamed for sex. i do think bragging about it shows a bit of insecurity and neediness on the guy's part though. that's of course in a hypothetical situation that may or may not correlate with the actual story in question.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying the guy should go to jail for raping her, but her feeling raped is completely valid. It's may have been totally reasonable for him to assume she would have consented to the act. [editline]15th March 2013[/editline] I'm going to bed

[QUOTE=yawmwen;39930819]i do think bragging about it shows a bit of insecurity and neediness on the guy's part though.[/QUOTE] He didn't though. The other girl who was part of the threesome found out that she was planning to use rape as a cover excuse in case her boyfriend ever found out. The thought that he might be accused of rape haunted him for years and like a decade later he posted about it anonymously on reddit. rape is no light accusation to make, that shit destroys lives. The fact that there's almost no legal repercussions for falsely accusing someone of rape, that your name is protected from use, and that the accused is usually not, is terrifying. There's a reason people talk about this kind of stuff, regardless of if how often it happens is minuscule in comparison to actual rape reports, how damaging it can be to ones life, even if innocent, it's a very effective tool to destroy someone with. We talk about these things because there's no reason one shouldn't be legally protected from these accusations being made public until proven guilty.

we're discussing rape in a thread about misogyny in video games guys. and the rape isnt happening in the video games. its happening in reddit posts. we've gone too far. this is a whole new thread of discussion. just not this one. and you can possibly take it all the way back to reddit as well if you please

[QUOTE=soulharvester;39930880]He didn't though. The other girl who was part of the threesome found out that she was planning to use rape as a cover excuse in case her boyfriend ever found out. The thought that he might be accused of rape haunted him for years and like a decade later he posted about it anonymously on reddit. rape is no light accusation to make, that shit destroys lives. The fact that there's almost no legal repercussions for falsely accusing someone of rape, that your name is protected from use, and that the accused is usually not, is terrifying. There's a reason people talk about this kind of stuff, regardless of if how often it happens is minuscule in comparison to actual rape reports, how damaging it can be to ones life, even if innocent, it's a very effective tool to destroy someone with. We talk about these things because there's no reason one shouldn't be legally protected from these accusations being made public until proven guilty.[/QUOTE] The fact that you think shutting down rape victims is OK just because it might hurt the perpetrator scares me.

I think the point that is being made is that it may be preferable to keep these accusations private until he is proven guilty, because if there are rumours or stuff in the news about you being a rapist, then even if you are innocent this is going to mess up your life.

[QUOTE=harryh11;39933152]I think the point that is being made is that it may be preferable to keep these accusations private until he is proven guilty, because if there are rumours or stuff in the news about you being a rapist, then even if you are innocent this is going to mess up your life.[/QUOTE] And when you're a victim of rape people often dismiss your accusations, or think you're falsely accusing despite that only 2% of the accusations are false and only 6.5% of rape accusations are convicted. When you take into account that only 15% of accusations are being reported this means .975% of rapes end in a persecution. 99.25% of rape ends in the rapist going free. Protecting the perps identity only further perpetuates the idea that false rape accusations are a rampant problem.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39933566]And when you're a victim of rape people often dismiss your accusations, or think you're falsely accusing despite that only 2% of the accusations are false and only 6.5% of rape accusations are convicted. When you take into account that only 15% of accusations are being reported this means .975% of rapes end in a persecution. 99.25% of rape ends in the rapist going free. Protecting the perps identity only further perpetuates the idea that false rape accusations are a rampant problem.[/QUOTE] yea but generally you structure your legal system so that you [i]assume[/i] that the person is innocent unless you can prove it. idk i think it's touchy because i don't want to imply that anyone should be hesitant to report rape, but at the same time our courts or media shouldn't assume guilt because only 2% of the accusations are false.

That's a problem with the media and society, not the justice system. Hiding the perps identity assumes that he's a victim in this, not that the man is guilty.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39933723]That's a problem with the media and society, not the justice system. Hiding the perps identity assumes that he's a victim in this, not that the man is guilty.[/QUOTE] yea i agree. i shouldn't have said justice system.

Where did you get the 2% of rape accusations are false?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39934130]Where did you get the 2% of rape accusations are false?[/QUOTE] It's actually 0.6%. [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/13/false-allegations-rape-domestic-violence-rare[/url] [url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/13/rape-investigations-belief-false-accusations[/url] [url]http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/research/perverting_course_of_justice_march_2013.pdf[/url] [editline]16th March 2013[/editline] And do not try to deny the statistics. I hate it when a bunch of teenage to early 20s people try to deconstruct statistics calculated by professionals. We have to take the facts for what they are and discuss based off of them.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39933566]And when you're a victim of rape people often dismiss your accusations, or think you're falsely accusing despite that only 2% of the accusations are false and only 6.5% of rape accusations are convicted. When you take into account that only 15% of accusations are being reported this means .975% of rapes end in a persecution. 99.25% of rape ends in the rapist going free. Protecting the perps identity only further perpetuates the idea that false rape accusations are a rampant problem.[/QUOTE] Shadaez confirmed for a rapeologist.

[QUOTE=person11;39934686]It's actually 0.6%. [URL]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/13/false-allegations-rape-domestic-violence-rare[/URL] [URL]http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/13/rape-investigations-belief-false-accusations[/URL] [URL]http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/research/perverting_course_of_justice_march_2013.pdf[/URL] [editline]16th March 2013[/editline] And do not try to deny the statistics. I hate it when a bunch of teenage to early 20s people try to deconstruct statistics calculated by professionals. We have to take the facts for what they are and discuss based off of them.[/QUOTE] 0.6% has been [I]proven [/I]false and prosecuted for it. Meaning it was proven that the accuser was lying and was charged for perverting the course of justice or for wasting police time. It doesn't show you what % of rape accusations were false. You'd either have to be somewhere else and have witnesses/proof of it or have footage proving that the sex was consensual or have messages/footage of the accuser threating you with lying to the police about it or have the accuser admit to lying to show up in that statistic. You might not be convicted for rape if you don't have these (because of lack of evidence) but it wouldn't show in your charts. I hate it when a bunch of teenage to early 20s people try to make things by up using wrong statistics. And if you had consensual sex with a girl (and it can be proven that you had sex) and then she claimed rape, you're pretty much fucked (especially if she was drunk/drugged), unless you have a footage or a signed paper that the sex was indeed consensual. That's what people have issue with. And it won't show on any statistics because those cases will end in conviction, which btw you're going to use to further your point that there are barely any false claims.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39933723]That's a problem with the media and society, not the justice system. Hiding the perps identity assumes that he's a victim in this, not that the man is guilty.[/QUOTE] Of course I agree that no one should be hesitant to report rape, but hiding the accused's identity is not assuming he is a victim in this, just assumes that he is innocent. And I think the justice system should probably work around the media and society. Having the accused's identity pop up in the newspapers etc. is not going to end well, even if innocent, so if the justice system steps in and says "Wait until we get the verdict guys" that's fine.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39935181]And if you had consensual sex with a girl (and it can be proven that you had sex) and then she claimed rape, you're pretty much fucked (especially if she was drunk/drugged), unless you have a footage or a signed paper that the sex was indeed consensual. That's what people have issue with. And it won't show on any statistics because those cases will end in conviction, which btw you're going to use to further your point that there are barely any false claims.[/QUOTE] seeing as you think consent can be given when drunk, I don't think you have a clear understanding of rape

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39935274]seeing as you think consent can be given when drunk, I don't think you have a clear understanding of rape[/QUOTE] What if both parties are drunk? They raped each other? Or is only the guy guilty of rape? How much alcohol can you have in your blood before you can't give consent? What if a woman is drunk and initiates the intercourse? Is she raped too? Can you give consent without using words? Or is it always rape unless you ask "Hey, wanna have sex?" and the other person says "yes" and then asks back and the answer is "yes" too? What if people do it without any words? Have you ever had sex?

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39935274]seeing as you think consent can be given when drunk, I don't think you have a clear understanding of rape[/QUOTE] Make it illegal to have sex while drunk for gods sake. End of story.

[QUOTE=entertainer89;39935558]Make it illegal to have sex while drunk for gods sake. End of story.[/QUOTE] suddenly divorce rates spike :v:

[QUOTE=entertainer89;39935558]Make it illegal to have sex while drunk for gods sake. End of story.[/QUOTE] While at it make it necessary for everyone involved to sign a paper that they give consent to intercourse and are not under extortion.

[QUOTE=Shadaez;39935274]seeing as you think consent can be given when drunk, I don't think you have a clear understanding of rape[/QUOTE] I dont think you have a clear understanding of life dude. Its like im talking to the most sheltered person in the entire world, you seriously think someone cant give consent if they are drunk? Why the fuck do you even think this? Have you ever drank before or been drunk? Have you ever given fucking consent for sex for starters? You spew the dumbest shit I have ever heard. Its like you read some feminist blog, took that side because its the unpopular opinion on fp(because you gotta be that special snowflake) and then just say the dumbest shit in the world. Real feminists probably think you are absolutely retarded with the shit you say.

lol the most simple minded person on fp trying to call someone out for "saying the dumbest shit in the world" if you want to see the dumbest shit in the world seriously just check your post history.