[QUOTE=Shadaez;39940489]I don't think you understand that you don't have to intend for things to portray women negatively. They still do. No one has said it was intentional, just that it is. It's a fact that most women in games are not good characters. I admit it is a fact that most male characters are bad too, but men are usually portrayed, even if poorly, as a hero, and as a capable being.[/QUOTE]
there's unintentional bad portrayal through bad writing and there's your version of bad portrayal which includes anything other than being the perfect central hero with all the personality traits you define. there is middle ground between something actually bad and your ideal, this is where most things sit and forcing a dichotomy between what you define and oppression is idiocy.
and male characters being capable? the only virtue male characters have is they're more often the PC. with how many other useless male NPCs and supporting characters there are, that's the only benefit.
[QUOTE=dass;39940654]I said that in another thread.
People just assumed I was completely against fighting sexism and all that stuff.[/QUOTE]
Well you saying that does make you a sexist misogynistic rape enabler cis scum, games are not about fun, they are about pushing a political and social agenda.
[QUOTE=dass;39940654]I said that in another thread.
People just assumed I was completely against fighting sexism and all that stuff.[/QUOTE]
no people assumed you were daft because you made a daft statement
its like telling people who read books how books used to be about fun and didnt pander to anyones agenda, its nonsense and totally not something cares to hear
if it bothers you then dont go into a thread thats pretty obviously about how games arent just fun
[QUOTE=entertainer89;39940456]If you honestly believe that games are "against" women. You are more deluded that I thought. You need help.
*whispers into earpiece*
"psst he's onto us, he's found out about our secret plot to turn all men against women using video games. Quick, go get Nintendo to develop another game about peach. Make her look good though this time!! "
Honestly.[/QUOTE]
I thought that she used "patriarchy" as a metaphor to described a male dominated gaming industry. She participated in a TED talk before, so it would look unprofessional if she talked about a conspiracy.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;39940279]except no. as demonstrated from the discussions a few pages back, anything that doesn't adhere to their view of what a female character should be or isn't important enough apparently doesn't count. the assumption then is that they are designed to subjugate women and portray them badly, but that's not the case either, they simply don't give a fuck.
significant under-representation or legitimate poor representation i can understand, that's an issue across everything though and is more through poor writing. but for the most part these aren't actual bad examples, they are just examples that don't live up to her ideals of what a female character should be. the industry doesn't care about these ideals really and they're pretty shitty really, so as long as they don't fuck everything up horribly then they're perfectly fine occupying the middle-ground.[/QUOTE]
I'm less concerned about his critique of [i]her[/i] video and more so with his failure to see changes on these issues as something that's necessary, as opposed to just being a personal gain for feminists.
I can't say that all people who call themselves feminist's ideals will be correct, but if you're talking to a "real" (reasonable) feminist they'll probably tell you that the industry just needs to avoid blatant objectification and a disproportionate amount of dainty and helpless female characters.
There is a big trend of people seeing Feminism as having unreasonable goals and they write off the whole movement as being unneeded, and somehow the real issues and the right people fall through the cracks. The way the man in the OP is approaching this stuff is fundamentally wrong; it doesn't matter what he's saying about her video.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39940681]Well you saying that does make you a sexist misogynistic rape enabler cis scum, games are not about fun, they are about pushing a political and social agenda.[/QUOTE]
wow sure regretting this whole ignore list thing
[editline]16th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39940695]I thought that she used "patriarchy" as a metaphor to described a male dominated gaming industry. She participated in a TED talk before, so it would look unprofessional if she talked about a conspiracy.[/QUOTE]
patriarchy means social system dominated by males
it would really help if people actually took the time to look up what the words they were using meant
[QUOTE=thisispain;39940700]wow sure regretting this whole ignore list thing
[editline]16th March 2013[/editline]
patriarchy means social system dominated by males
it would really help if people actually took the time to look up what the words they were using meant[/QUOTE]
You said you ignored me but you didnt.
Who even does shit like that unless they want attention, guess it worked cause I just gave you some.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;39940669]there's unintentional bad portrayal through bad writing and there's your version of bad portrayal which includes anything other than being the perfect central hero with all the personality traits you define.[/QUOTE]
There's no difference between, "my version" and the unintentional bad portrayal. Don't put words in my mouth. There's a difference between a good female character, a bad female character and a 'decent' or just neutral female character. Yes, my definition of a good female character includes personality traits that I define as good, but a bad female character isn't the lack of those traits. I want less bad female characters than anything. Having some good female characters would be a bonus.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39940681]Well you saying that does make you a sexist misogynistic rape enabler cis scum, games are not about fun, they are about pushing a political and social agenda.[/QUOTE]
I'd say something someone else in these forums once told me, but then it would raise hell, and I don't want to do that :v:
Also, is it just me, or Anita looks like Anne Hathaway?
[QUOTE=thisispain;39940700]
patriarchy means social system dominated by males
it would really help if people actually took the time to look up what the words they were using meant[/QUOTE]
Oh, so there's really nothing wrong about her statement at all then.
Why were people talking about her believing in a conspiracy? Am I missing something? I'm not seeing it in her videos.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39940723]You said you ignored me but you didnt.
Who even does shit like that unless they want attention, guess it worked cause I just gave you some.[/QUOTE]
do go on
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39940681]Well you saying that does make you a sexist misogynistic rape enabler cis scum, games are not about fun, they are about pushing a political and social agenda.[/QUOTE]
No one said games weren't about fun, they do have indirect influence of people, though, as all media does. I've said this so many times, it doesn't matter if its their intent. We know they don't mean to do these things, we're just asking them to include better characters.
[editline]16th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39940760]Oh, so there's really nothing wrong about her statement at all then.
Why were people talking about her believing in a conspiracy? Am I missing something? I'm not seeing it in her videos.[/QUOTE]
what are you talking about, no one mentioned a conspiracy im very confused
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39940765]No one said games weren't about fun, they do have indirect influence of people, though, as all media does. I've said this so many times, it doesn't matter if its their intent. We know they don't mean to do these things, we're just asking them to include better characters.[/QUOTE]
You act like you want every single character in an entire game or story be a major character, that is not how it works, and you sound like you want games to pander to everyone which is not what they are about.
And I would LOVE to hear what you think is a better character, lets hear what you think makes a good character.
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39940760]
Why were people talking about her believing in a conspiracy? [/QUOTE]
its either because assuming she believes in a conspiracy means you can easily dismiss her arguments on the basis of "all conspiracy theories are stupid and not true", which is pretty fallacious
or they come into a thread about media critical theory with 0 understanding of media critical theory
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39940765]
what are you talking about, no one mentioned a conspiracy im very confused[/QUOTE]
I've seen in the thread numerous time, but I'll bring up a recent example:
[QUOTE=entertainer89;39940456]If you honestly believe that games are "against" women. You are more deluded that I thought. You need help.
*whispers into earpiece*
"psst he's onto us, he's found out about our secret plot to turn all men against women using video games. Quick, go get Nintendo to develop another game about peach. Make her look good though this time!! "
Honestly.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=skeryskeleton;39940822][B][U]prepear.... 2 get spooked[/U][/B][/QUOTE]
You bumfuck, I thought it was gonna just be skeletons.
[QUOTE=Splarg!;39940699]I'm less concerned about his critique of [i]her[/i] video and more so with his failure to see changes on these issues as something that's necessary, as opposed to just being a personal gain for feminists.
I can't say that all people who call themselves feminist's ideals will be correct, but if you're talking to a "real" (reasonable) feminist they'll probably tell you that the industry just needs to avoid blatant objectification and a disproportionate amount of dainty and helpless female characters.
There is a big trend of people seeing Feminism as having unreasonable goals and they write off the whole movement as being unneeded, and somehow the real issues and the right people fall through the cracks. The way the man in the OP is approaching this stuff is fundamentally wrong; it doesn't matter what he's saying about her video.[/QUOTE]
seeing as his video is responding to anita's and her video doesn't follow that definition, it's not really essential that he make a completely balanced argument. anita completely disregards zelda simply because she got captured once and that's not what she thinks should happen. she can't even truly link it to sexism or a bad portrayal, she just complains about it because she doesn't like it. everyone knows what the issues are with video game writing, but i think the point of his long pop-culture critic section was that bad writing hurts everyone and that's the issue to be addressed, not focussing just on portrayals of women.
but really now, someone doesn't phrase their argument in a way that you like so it's fundamentally wrong? even from an influencing people perspective he's level-headed and rational enough that he still gets his message through. there's nothing wrong with it other than he didn't agree with you enough.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39940805]You act like you want every single character in an entire game or story be a major character, that is not how it works, and you sound like you want games to pander to everyone which is not what they are about.
And I would LOVE to hear what you think is a better character, lets hear what you think makes a good character.[/QUOTE]
Guys, I think you are missing the point of the video, again. She was discussing Damsel in Distress trope, not 'All female characters should be a major character', not 'All females should be portrayed as good', not 'Male NPCs are helpless too', the list goes on.
The trope is very simple. Look it up, or actually no, watch the video again.
wow skery's post got dealt with quick lmao
[QUOTE=maqzek;39940858]Guys, I think you are missing the point of the video, again. She was discussing Damsel in Distress trope, not 'All female characters should be a major character', not 'All females should be portrayed as good', not 'Male NPCs are helpless too', the list goes on.
The trope is very simple. Look it up, or actually no, watch the video again.[/QUOTE]
I was responding to J Shadz, not the video.
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39940825]I've seen in the thread numerous time, but I'll bring up a recent example:[/QUOTE]
That's an example of someone just talking shite instead of actually making a valid point. No one is suggesting that the games industry is part of a campaign against women, and this person is just pretending that is the viewpoint of others to trivialise their argument
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39940805]You act like you want every single character in an entire game or story be a major character, that is not how it works, and you sound like you want games to pander to everyone which is not what they are about.
And I would LOVE to hear what you think is a better character, lets hear what you think makes a good character.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if a character's a major character or not, that doesn't make them good or bad. It's easier to define what's a bad character. A bad character sole reason for existence is to be a plot device for another. (this isn't my whole definition of a bad character dont even claim it is)
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39940731]There's no difference between, "my version" and the unintentional bad portrayal. Don't put words in my mouth. There's a difference between a good female character, a bad female character and a 'decent' or just neutral female character. Yes, my definition of a good female character includes personality traits that I define as good, but a bad female character isn't the lack of those traits. I want less bad female characters than anything. Having some good female characters would be a bonus.[/QUOTE]
except mediocre female characters that don't hurt the image of women but don't really influence anything often get lumped in with bad portrayals, after all they're "perpetuating sexism" or something, right?
but if you're going to complain about putting your words back in your mouth, even your definition of a good female character is pretty stupid. men don't define a good male character as james bond and demand there's more like him in everything, they go for actually well written characters and that is what should be pursued. you can't define a good character simply by them being compassionate the same as marcus fenix is still an awful character no matter how masculine he is. focus on actual good writing rather than arbitrary standards of quality.
[QUOTE=Pappi_man;39922551]I think the stupidest thing is people threating her and making flash games where you beat her up. I wish people would understand the concept of "ignore" and move on.[/QUOTE]
I wish feminists would apply that logic instead of launching crusades against "Lel, imma rape you" and any criticism of their insane movement.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39940903]It doesn't matter if a character's a major character or not, that doesn't make them good or bad. It's easier to define what's a bad character. A bad character sole reason for existence is to be a plot device for another.[/QUOTE]
Thats not just a bad character.
A bad Character could be the guy you are playing, he could be an uninteresting, nasally, and montone person talking and being boring.
And generally major characters are the much better written ones because they are more important.
Id still like to hear what you think is a good character vs a bad character, and how women are such bad characters in games compared to men, you keep acting like badly written women characters are a danger or threat, I dont fucking get it.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;39940855]seeing as his video is responding to anita's and her video doesn't follow that definition, it's not really essential that he make a completely balanced argument. anita completely disregards zelda simply because she got captured once and that's not what she thinks should happen. she can't even truly link it to sexism or a bad portrayal, she just complains about it because she doesn't like it. everyone knows what the issues are with video game writing, but i think the point of his long pop-culture critic section was that bad writing hurts everyone and that's the issue to be addressed, not focussing just on portrayals of women.
but really now, someone doesn't phrase their argument in a way that you like so it's fundamentally wrong? even from an influencing people perspective he's level-headed and rational enough that he still gets his message through. there's nothing wrong with it other than he didn't agree with you enough.[/QUOTE]
By focusing on portrayals of women and fixing those, you can always fix underlying problem as well. It's not like she's saying fix the DiD trope but don't fix the lazy writting part, keep those. Also, why instead of actually helping her and bringing more facts into this issue, but from the male perspective or maybe add something that she missed and/or correct some flaws in her argument, he completely criticizes her in unhelpful manner. Okay, she stops doing the series, accepts that she was wrong and donates all the money to the charity. What does that accomplish?
If you want to fix the issue as well, why are you attacking a potential ally, even if they have a bit different perspective on the issue?
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;39940922]I wish feminists would apply that logic instead of launching crusades against "Lel, imma rape you" and any criticism of their insane movement.[/QUOTE]
for an "insane" movement it sure did a lot of good, i mean unless you dont like lgbt rights or sexual freedoms
[QUOTE=thisispain;39940965]for an "insane" movement it sure did a lot of good, i mean unless you dont like lgbt rights or sexual freedoms[/QUOTE]
Feminism is now exclusive to lgbt?
What the fuck. Are you seriously this far gone you actually think this.
[QUOTE=maqzek;39940932]By focusing on portrayals of women and fixing those, you can always fix underlying problem as well. It's not like she's saying fix the DiD trope but don't fix the lazy writting part, keep those. Also, why instead of actually helping her and bringing more facts into this issue, but from the male perspective or maybe add something that she missed and/or correct some flaws in her argument, he completely criticizes her in unhelpful manner. Okay, she stops doing the series, accepts that she was wrong and donates all the money to the charity. What does that accomplish?
If you want to fix the issue as well, why are you attacking a potential ally, even if they have a bit different perspective on the issue?[/QUOTE]
the issue with focussing solely on the potrayal of women and various tropes is that it doesn't fix the underlying issue and even by your explanation, the real issue is given a sidenote rather than real attention. fix the writing and the portrayal will follow, the same isn't true the other way around.
why attack them if we both want to fix the issue? same reason i'd stop someone from amputating a leg if there's a simpler solution. i don't argue it so she stops completely, i argue it because she's wrong and such a portrayal of feminists only criticising rather than creating along with showing such a poor understanding of issues and complaining about things on the surface is harmful to the public image of feminism. there's good reason why people don't think much of it nowadays and if you don't call people out on their bullshit and make clear the real goals, that impression won't change.
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