What do you mean when consent is required than? If a women doesn't want sex than she can say "No, gtfo". If she isn't able to do that (He has a knife, etc), than it's rape. Women are people too, they aren't completely defenceless creatures.
We also aren't talking about consent towards men.. :rolleye:
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;39947513]What do you mean when consent is required than? If a women doesn't want sex than she can say "No, gtfo". If she isn't able to do that (He has a knife, etc), than it's rape. Women are people too, they aren't completely defenceless creatures.
We also aren't talking about consent towards men.. :rolleye:[/QUOTE]
you're ignoring the fact people can be coerced or forced into sex through non-violent means. a lack of physical resistance is not, in itself, consent.
Video about video games turns into drunk rape.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39947541]Video about video games turns into drunk rape.[/QUOTE]
This is what happens in any discussion about Religion, Ponies or Feminism.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;39947513]What do you mean when consent is required than? If a women doesn't want sex than she can say "No, gtfo". If she isn't able to do that (He has a knife, etc), than it's rape. Women are people too, they aren't completely defenceless creatures.
We also aren't talking about consent towards men.. :rolleye:[/QUOTE]
A drunk person typically isn't able to resist. Some people might fight back and some people might freeze because they're afraid of getting hurt if they refuse. Like everyone's said a thousand times, this isn't a black and white issue, it depends on a lot of things.
And if you look at my posts you'll see that not even once have I made a gender specific statement unless noted. Read the thread.
[editline]come on[/editline]
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39947541]Video about video games turns into drunk rape.[/QUOTE]
Are you going to contribute or what? Posts like that serve literally no purpose.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;39947513]What do you mean when consent is required than? If a women doesn't want sex than she can say "No, gtfo". If she isn't able to do that (He has a knife, etc), than it's rape. Women are people too, they aren't completely defenceless creatures.
We also aren't talking about consent towards men.. :rolleye:[/QUOTE]
pretty sure that the feminists in the thread are posting the scenario gender neutrally, you're the sexist here for attributing and assuming it to be a woman as the rape victim
nvm yawmen failed
god damnit yawmen you man hater
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39947480]like, honestly did you even read the number 2 in that list of two things, it explains this type of scenario
2. girl must actually consent. not saying no does not always mean consent
this means the lack of a no isn't always a yes, but if can be a yes[/QUOTE]
And I asked him to specify whether it has to be vocal or not. I want to know what he means by "actually consent".
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39947506]i can't answer this because it isn't the same for everyone. that's why i said it's common sense. is the person lucid? do they have full control of their body? are they able to make decisions? [/QUOTE]
Well I more or less specified what I understand by that. Seems like we agree on the "not drunk" part you just have a problem saying what you mean for some reason.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39947506]again, it's fucking common sense. is the person reciprocating your advances? is the person stiff or reluctant?[/QUOTE]
I don't know, you tell me whether or not sucking my cock is reciprocating my advances...
The question is simple. Just pick one. Does she have to say "I want to have sex with you" or answer "yes" to a question like "do you want to have sex with me"? Or can she give consent nonverbally by being active in this, for instance taking my pants off and sucking my cock?
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;39947508]I think he means you need to stop analyzing it like that, because it [I]is[/I] pretty weird. But really you can't measure it like "you must be this drunk to be considered a rape victim" because it's really dependent on the person and context.
But if you need an example "consenting" would be actively (and willingly) participating in the sexual act (basically, reciprocating) and not being reluctant or just waiting for you to be done with it. If in doubt, ask.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's the point. We 2 think alike about this. I'm dwelling on it because I want to know what he thinks. That's the only reason I'm "analyzing" it like that.
This thread feels like it's going a mile a minute.
[editline]17th March 2013[/editline]
Except for this certain pocket of time, now, I guess.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39947541]Video about video games turns into drunk rape.[/QUOTE]
Uh, yeah, and? That's how discussions work. Despite your best efforts to make as many awful posts as possible, that is.
what i'm getting out of this is that you're not allowed to have sex while drunk/have sex with someone who is drunk or else you are a rapist
am i understanding this right?
[QUOTE=Shortyish;39947883]what i'm getting out of this is that you're not allowed to have sex while drunk/have sex with someone who is drunk or else you are a rapist
am i understanding this right?[/QUOTE]
no
[quote=Dr. Gestapo]It depends on how it happens. If you're under the influence your inhibitions are way lower so it's easy for you to say "yes" to a lot of things, so it's complicated.
For instance, if someone's drunk and wants to have sex with you, it's not rape because there's consent from both parties. If you want to have sex with someone who is drunk but still lucid enough to consent then it's not rape either. Everyone has full responsibility of their actions here.
It becomes rape when you deliberately pick the most fucked up person in the party and manipulate them into having sex with you while in full knowledge that they aren't in their right state of mind.
[/quote]
hope this helps
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39947621]
I don't know, you tell me whether or not sucking my cock is reciprocating my advances...
The question is simple. Just pick one. Does she have to say "I want to have sex with you" or answer "yes" to a question like "do you want to have sex with me"? Or can she give consent nonverbally by being active in this, for instance taking my pants off and sucking my cock?
[/QUOTE]
i said that consent must be explicit, not that consent has to always be verbally communicated.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39947920]i said that consent must be explicit, not that consent has to always be verbally communicated.[/QUOTE]
What the hell do you disagree with then? :v:
[QUOTE=Shortyish;39947883]what i'm getting out of this is that you're not allowed to have sex while drunk/have sex with someone who is drunk or else you are a rapist
am i understanding this right?[/QUOTE]
Not without a legal contract signed in ink.
i wasn't necessarily disagreeing with anything except that you seemed to make it necessary to try and bring up and analyze every hypothetical situation.
it's common sense. you should be able to tell when someone is able to consent to sex and i'm p. sure that was shadaez's point too.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39948004]
it's common sense. you should be able to tell when someone is able to consent to sex and i'm p. sure that was shadaez's point too.[/QUOTE]
It's actually incredibly complicated. There are probably thousands of people who have suffered because somebody claimed rape during consensual sex. This may be because of child support..:dance:
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;39948066]It's actually incredibly complicated. There are probably thousands of people who have suffered because somebody claimed rape during consensual sex. This may be because of child support..:dance:[/QUOTE]
You sure make it sound like false rape claims are a rampant problem when a number of actual studies prove otherwise.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;39948066]It's actually incredibly complicated. There are probably thousands of people who have suffered because somebody claimed rape during consensual sex. This may be because of child support..:dance:[/QUOTE]
how did you manage to bring up child support, what does that have to do with rape
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39948004]i wasn't necessarily disagreeing with anything except that you seemed to make it necessary to try and bring up and analyze every hypothetical situation.[/QUOTE]
I posted that [B][I][U]until the point of getting so drunk that you can't make any decisions for yourself [/U][/I][/B]you're responsible for what you're doing, meaning that if you drink a couple of drinks, get flirty, invite someone to your bed and fuck them, and then in the morning you feel regret, it's your fault. To which you went on a crusade how I'm a rapey slime ball weirdo.
I made up those hypothetical situations to understand where we disagree because apart from insults you were pretty vague.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39948004]it's common sense. you should be able to tell when someone is able to consent to sex and i'm p. sure that was shadaez's point too.[/QUOTE]
He said [QUOTE=Shadaez;39935274]seeing as you think consent can be given when drunk, I don't think you have a clear understanding of rape[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between being on influence of alcohol and being so drunk that you can't make any decisions for yourself. He wouldn't specify anything either.
[editline]17th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Winters;39948109]You sure make it sound like false rape claims are a rampant problem when a number of actual studies prove otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Is that the study that shows how many times it was proven that the accuser was lying and was charged for perverting the course of justice or for wasting police time? Because that wouldn't be the number of false rape claims. If you had consensual sex with a girl (and it can be proven that you had sex) and then she claimed rape, you're pretty much fucked (especially if she was had alcohol/drugs in her blood), unless you have footage, witnesses or a signed paper that the sex was indeed consensual. Just saying.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39948153]I posted that [B][I][U]until the point of getting so drunk that you can't make any decisions for yourself [/U][/I][/B]you're responsible for what you're doing, meaning that if you drink a couple of drinks, get flirty, invite someone to your bed and fuck them, and then in the morning you feel regret, it's your fault. To which you went on a crusade how I'm a rapey slime ball weirdo.
I made up those hypothetical situations to understand where we disagree because you apart from insults you were pretty vague.
He said
There is a difference between being on influence of alcohol and being so drunk that you can't make any decisions for yourself. He wouldn't specify anything either.
[editline]17th March 2013[/editline]
Is that the study shows how many times it was proven that the accuser was lying and was charged for perverting the course of justice or for wasting police time? Because that wouldn't be the number of false rape claims. If you had consensual sex with a girl (and it can be proven that you had sex) and then she claimed rape, you're pretty much fucked (especially if she was had alcohol/drugs in her blood), unless you have footage, witnesses or a signed paper that the sex was indeed consensual. Just saying.[/QUOTE]
Dont even try and argue them dude, its gonna go in circles and it will be a stream of endless circlejerking and terrible arguments for 10 pages.
If someone thinks your a rapey slime ball for being right on its the drunk persons fault then take a step back and realize what you are arguing with.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39948153]Is that the study that shows how many times it was proven that the accuser was lying and was charged for perverting the course of justice or for wasting police time? Because that wouldn't be the number of false rape claims. If you had consensual sex with a girl (and it can be proven that you had sex) and then she claimed rape, you're pretty much fucked (especially if she was had alcohol/drugs in her blood), unless you have footage, witnesses or a signed paper that the sex was indeed consensual. Just saying.[/QUOTE]
this isn't true at all.
[editline]17th March 2013[/editline]
it's really easy to get off a rape charge if you can show that the person was drunk or just say she consented.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39948559]this isn't true at all.
[editline]17th March 2013[/editline]
it's really easy to get off a rape charge if you can show that the person was drunk or just say she consented.[/QUOTE]
Wait what? So what you're saying is that I can keep buying a girl drinks till she's too drunk to resist my invite to spend the night at my place where I fuck her senselessly when she's lying on my bed passed out and all I need to do to get scott free is to say that she was drunk?
And if I invite a girl to my house, take a knife or something and coerce her to have sex with me without using any physical force, I can get scott free again if I just say that she wanted it?
So um... when does one do get convicted for rape? What conditions you need to meet to have someone convicted for rape? When you have witnesses or footage of it?
Wouldn't every single rapist say "he/she wanted it" if it was a get out of jail card?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39948668]Wait what? So what you're saying is that I can keep buying a girl drinks till she's too drunk to resist my invite to spend the night at my place where I fuck her senselessly when she's lying on my bed passed out and all I need to do to get scott free is to say that she was drunk?
And if I invite a girl to my house, take a knife or something and coerce her to have sex with me without using any physical force, I can get scott free again if I just say that she wanted it?
So um... when does one do get convicted for rape? What conditions you need to meet to have someone convicted for rape? When you have witnesses or footage of it?
Wouldn't every single rapist say "she wanted it" if it was a get out of jail card?[/QUOTE]
that's the problem with rape, it's incredibly hard to prove. unless a rape kit shows force was used then it's an uphill battle proving rape.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39948153]I posted that [B][I][U]until the point of getting so drunk that you can't make any decisions for yourself [/U][/I][/B]you're responsible for what you're doing, meaning that if you drink a couple of drinks, get flirty, invite someone to your bed and fuck them, and then in the morning you feel regret, it's your fault. To which you went on a crusade how I'm a rapey slime ball weirdo.
I made up those hypothetical situations to understand where we disagree because apart from insults you were pretty vague.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry no, if you're under the influence and you say yes to something you'd otherwise say no to, that's taking advantage of the drunk person. I really don't think you get this.
You can't consent while [B]under the influence[/B] do you get what that means? It means if alcohol (or any drug really) is influencing your decisions, you can not consent.
That [B]does not[/B] mean that sex while drunk = rape. And no, I'm not contradicting myself. It requires you to be willing, and have prior consent or assumed consent based on your relationship with the person. These two things don't necessarily disqualify you as a rapist, but it's enough that the rape claim would be "unfounded" - you'd be within reason to believe it was consensual in a court of law. This doesn't mean that its a false rape claim, there is a difference.
Arguments like these are the reason I dislike online social justice warriors. Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against people promoting social justice in real life, because doing that is actually productive. I'm probably gonna piss off some people here by saying this but honestly arguments like these are insane.
In real life, your efforts can actually have a good chance of convincing people and building support. People don't really make things personal when arguing about these things in real life. You're actually helping change people's views about issues.
That doesn't translate at all online for some reason. Online everyone's stubborn as fuck because they have no reason to change their views. Some random dude online isn't going to hold much sway to people. People just go online and rant at eachother nonstop for pages. Of course the arguing doesn't actually do shit, because everyone's already entrenched in their views.
It just goes on and on and on. Topics and arguments change, but nobodies viewpoint will. Everyone gets pissed at eachother but hides it in a veil of so call "debate". In the end nothing productive at all has even remotely been done. The arguement just wasted eachothers time and made people even more biased and angry.
sorry for hurting your feelings? I've clarified and made plenty of people to understand the whole drunk consent thing. This isn't radical or anything, it's the US law
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39948726]that's the problem with rape, it's incredibly hard to prove. unless a rape kit shows force was used then it's an uphill battle proving rape.[/QUOTE]
What kind of proof do you need to convict someone for rape then?
Also have in mind that we're talking about situation where you know who did it and you indeed had sex. Ignoring the victim withdrawal, not being able to identify the offender and not being able to prove intercourse, your chances of conviction in that case are pretty good from what I understand.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39948922]Sorry no, if you're under the influence and you say yes to something you'd otherwise say no to, that's taking advantage of the drunk person. I really don't think you get this.
You can't consent while [B]under the influence[/B] do you get what that means? It means if alcohol (or any drug really) is influencing your decisions, you can not consent.[/QUOTE]
First of all many things can influence your decision which you're going to regret later. Doesn't mean it's rape.
Second of all, there's a fuckload of people under influence of alcohol having sex right now all over the world. People be rapin' everywhere.
That's why you're detached from reality. You decided to drink few drinks (under influence, not blacked out), you got horny, you fucked someone because you wanted to, take responsibility. And I'm not talking about a situation where you're hammered and can barely walk. Don't even fucking go there.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39948922]That [B]does not[/B] mean that sex while drunk = rape. And no, I'm not contradicting myself. It requires you to be willing, and have prior consent or assumed consent based on your relationship with the person. These two things don't necessarily disqualify you as a rapist, but it's enough that the rape claim would be "unfounded" - you'd be within reason to believe it was consensual in a court of law. This doesn't mean that its a false rape claim, there is a difference.[/QUOTE]
That means every intercourse that strangers had when they both had a drink is rape, because they can't give consent when under influence of alcohol and didn't give it before they had the drink. Get a reality check. It doesn't work like that. Also assuming that you can fuck your wife because she's your wife and she didn't say no is a minefield. Your "implied consent" construct is bullshit.
Basically you think that people have to give their consent (or some fucking implied one) before they have a drink and have to be willing for it not to be rape. And that they can't give consent after a drink. I'm sorry. But you're still responsible for what you're doing after a beer. However if you are so far gone that you'll do whatever people tell you to and get taken advantage of, it's a different story.
literally dont understand the point of ur post, sorry you don't like the way I do things! thanks for telling me
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39949138]sorry for hurting your feelings? I've clarified and made plenty of people to understand the whole drunk consent thing. This isn't radical or anything, it's the US law[/QUOTE]
It's the US law that if you have alcohol in your blood you are not responsible for your actions? Give me a break.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39949143]
First of all many things can influence your decision which you're going to regret later. Doesn't mean it's rape.[/QUOTE]
This is wrong, I agree with most of the rest. If you drink and have sex, then wake up and don't feel raped, you weren't. Doesn't mean the opposite isn't true. This isn't about regret.
[editline]17th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39949171]It's the US law that if you have alcohol in your blood you are not responsible for your actions? Give me a break.[/QUOTE]
this is where you're wrong, responsibility for your actions is completely different to being raped
you act as if a drunk girl is putting you in danger...
[editline]17th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;39949143]Also assuming that you can fuck your wife because she's your wife and she didn't say no is a minefield. Your "implied consent" construct is bullshit.[/QUOTE]
this is also a big misunderstanding of what I mean
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