[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39923023]Also why focus on just the subject of women in games? How about gender roles in games? I'd probably be willing to listen to her more if she focused on that (and also had some real eyebrows). I mean just as a for instance she picks on Mario and Peach as being the epitome of this "damsel in distress" stuff but in Luigi's Mansion you have Mario's weak and cowardly brother going to save the him, [I]ultimate misogynist[/I]![/QUOTE]
It'd sure be nice to have a documentary that focuses on every side of the issue, and that treats everyone with respect, but we can't have [b]THAT[/b] now can we.
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923012][url]http://www.vgchartz.com/game/2288/super-princess-peach/[/url]
not even 1 million sales
[url]http://www.vgchartz.com/game/1582/new-super-mario-bros/[/url]
29 million sales[/QUOTE]
wow, you mean a new release of a popular, long running series sold more a new one based on a poor female character
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923039]wow, you mean a new release of a popular, long running series sold more a new one based on a poor female character[/QUOTE]
peach is part of the mario series and isn't just some small character no one realizes exists
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923012][url]http://www.vgchartz.com/game/2288/super-princess-peach/[/url]
not even 1 million sales
[url]http://www.vgchartz.com/game/1582/new-super-mario-bros/[/url]
29 million sales[/QUOTE]
Probably has something to do with that Super Princess Peach wasn't a very good game.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39923023]Also why focus on just the subject of women in games? How about gender roles in games? I'd probably be willing to listen to her more if she focused on that (and also had some real eyebrows). I mean just as a for instance she picks on Mario and Peach as being the epitome of this "damsel in distress" stuff but in Luigi's Mansion you have Mario's weak and cowardly brother going to save the him, [I]ultimate misogynist[/I]![/QUOTE]
Why are we not talking about men? Men obviously need to be mentioned more in this discussion about women being discriminated in video games? Why is my demographic not getting proper treatment? It is not like men are always considered the default in society and in video games or anything, nosiree. Here look, a game with no women as main characters, this does not play into the trope!
[QUOTE=erfinjerfin;39922901]In the thesis, she criticizes physically powerful female characters, claiming that they are trying to take after "positive male traits" rather than "positive female traits," and therefore, removing power from women.
However, in the Tropes vs. Women video, she praises Krystal's character for the [i]exact same thing.[/i]
Seems contradictory to me.[/QUOTE]
no she criticizes "strong" female characters in certain movies and shows because they are designed to simply have masculine traits. they are just men with boobs. feminists are often into the idea of a character(both male and female) showing both traits that are culturally masculine and culturally feminine. they want complex characters.
in a way a lot of feminists are really criticizing lazy character writers. it just so happens that lazy writing tends to trope women more than men, and generally has women being more submissive and weak by comparison.
personally, i don't want a female lead who is exactly the same as any male lead. i just want leads, both men and women, who are well-written. it isn't that i want to see a woman saving her husband from the castle, i want writers to write stories that no longer require that "in distress" trope to begin with because it's lazy.
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923024]why the fuck are you arguing then?[/QUOTE]
because the intent of your actions doesn't excuse you of the consequences??? no one said they meant to do it.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923043]peach is part of the mario series and isn't just some small character no one realizes exists[/QUOTE]
not sure what that has to do with anything, it's still a new game
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_Sex[/url]
Good source for this kind of discussion
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Souls_of_Black_Folk[/url] this also works,
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39923049]no she criticizes "strong" female characters in certain movies and shows because they are designed to simply have masculine traits. they are just men with boobs. feminists are often into the idea of a character(both male and female) showing both traits that are culturally masculine and culturally feminine. they want complex characters.
in a way a lot of feminists are really criticizing lazy character writers. it just so happens that lazy writing tends to trope women more than men, and generally has women being more submissive and weak by comparison.
personally, i don't want a female lead who is exactly the same as any male lead. i just want leads, both men and women, who are well-written. it isn't that i want to see a woman saving her husband from the castle, i want writers to write stories that no longer require that "in distress" trope to begin with because it's lazy.[/QUOTE]
sorry but since when was being strong a masculine trait?
if you're men you're a woman?
[QUOTE=person11;39922997]Even if you only had 7 seconds to make a story, you could come up with thousands of non Damsel in Distress types of stories.[/QUOTE]
Even then I still fail to see how kids games having these 7 second stories is so damning to the role of women in society. Believe it or not kids are pretty fucking smart and once they realize cooties don't exist they generally tend to realize these stories for what they are.
If these little, fucking stupid stories in video games are so damning the role of women in society then violent video games probably have an even bigger impact than we thought!!!!
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923065]sorry but since when was being strong a masculine trait?[/QUOTE]
physical strength is undoubtedly a masculine trait in our culture, and to an extent i would say mental strength(fortitude, will-power, patience) are considered masculine traits as well.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39923049]no she criticizes "strong" female characters in certain movies and shows because they are designed to simply have masculine traits. they are just men with boobs. feminists are often into the idea of a character(both male and female) showing both traits that are culturally masculine and culturally feminine. they want complex characters.
in a way a lot of feminists are really criticizing lazy character writers. it just so happens that lazy writing tends to trope women more than men, and generally has women being more submissive and weak by comparison.
personally, i don't want a female lead who is exactly the same as any male lead. i just want leads, both men and women, who are well-written. it isn't that i want to see a woman saving her husband from the castle, i want writers to write stories that no longer require that "in distress" trope to begin with because it's lazy.[/QUOTE]
Alright, that's fair. Seems I misunderstood the original argument entirely.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923055]because the intent of your actions doesn't excuse you of the consequences??? no one said they meant to do it.[/QUOTE]
I think the intent of your actions completely excuses the consequences.
Imagine telling your 3 year old child: "Oh you were just playing with Billy but you accidentally hurt him? I don't care! Stand in the corner!"
It's not right.
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923065]sorry but since when was being strong a masculine trait?
[/quote]
since society deemed it one (forever)
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923065]
if you're men you're a woman?[/QUOTE]
what
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39923071]physical strength is undoubtedly a masculine trait in our culture, and to an extent i would say mental strength(fortitude, will-power, patience) are considered masculine traits as well.[/QUOTE]
why is this fine?
isn't that a bit... sexist?
Point: to make a profit. We can accept this.
How to make a profit: Cater to a market.
What market?: Young males.
How to appeal to young males in the most efficient way: Find a universal goal that young males want.
What do they want?: Sex, love, or compassionate relationship, with a woman.
Therefore: Cater to the male-dominated market by using a woman [I]as the goal[/I].
I understand that they may have 7 seconds to portray a plot, but you're making excuses for taking the easy way out. There's a reason why it's a trope- it isn't because the developers tried their damnedest to find a good plot or goal, it's because they wanted to make an easy profit and chose to use motive of sex interest. The woman is not a character, the woman is a goal. That's the point. It doesn't matter if that was their mindset or their intent, but that is what it comes down to. It doesn't matter if that's what the market demands, when the problem is that the market demands are shallow and objectifying, and therefore the developers are catering to that. The "7 seconds" excuse falls flat on its face when we step into later consoles when there actually is opportunity to develop a plot or character development but instead maintain the same standard.
The method of using women as a goal is effective because the target demographic is primarily interested in women. Not for their character, or their personality, or their person, but merely because they are a woman and an object of sexual desire. This is the main problem. This video beats around the bush in every way in order to [I]not[/I] address the [I]actual main argument[/I].
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;39923081]I think the intent of your actions completely excuses the consequences.
Imagine telling your 3 year old child: "Oh you were just playing with Billy but you accidentally hurt him? I don't care! Stand in the corner!"
It's not right.[/QUOTE]
intent matters but it's not magic ;) little Billy is still hurt from the accident, he's not magically unharmed just because you didn't mean to hurt him
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923084]since society deemed it one (forever)
what[/QUOTE]
you're saying that being strong is an undoubted trait of men, and making women strong is making them manly
that can only mean that women are not strong
this is sexist to both sides
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923088]why is this fine?
isn't that a bit... sexist?[/QUOTE]
what do you mean? that is sexist and it's part of the point anita sarkeesian was making with her thesis. men tend to have a lot more, and much better positive traits associated with them. strength, courage, self control, etc.
I still think people didn't really understand what the Damsel in Distress video was about.
It didn't display all those old games as examples to show you how evil and misogynist they were, but to show you how something that might have been used innocently enough back then was picked up by other developers and became a trend in storytelling that perpetuates sexist ideas to the point that we think of it as "normal" and "not worth discussing" today.
This video is stupid because it assumes the point of her video was to tell you "hey hey look how SEXIST and EVIL these videogames are get MAD" and then devolves into pure ad hominem instead of doing any kind of analysis on her rhetoric.
Seriously this shouldn't even be such goddamn hot topic, it really goes on to show how subtly the media affects us, making people adopt such a hostile disposition towards criticism of the status quo.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923055]
not sure what that has to do with anything, it's still a new game[/QUOTE]
It's mario with peach as the main character, that's irrelevant. Explain why paper mario sold so much if it was a new series.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923107]intent matters but it's not magic ;) little Billy is still hurt from the accident, he's not magically unharmed just because you didn't mean to hurt him[/QUOTE]
But should you punish the one who hurt him only because he's hurt? Or would you rather you have the person who did it explain themselves and make sure they understand what they did.
What if you were in a situation like that?
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923088]why is this fine?
isn't that a bit... sexist?[/QUOTE]
yes it's completely sexist, are you starting to get the point?
society says strength = masculine
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];39923093']Point: to make a profit. We can accept this.
How to make a profit: Cater to a market.
What market?: Young males.
How to appeal to young males in the most efficient way: Find a universal goal that young males want.
What do they want?: Sex, love, or compassionate relationship, with a woman.
Therefore: Cater to the male-dominated market by using a woman [I]as the goal[/I].
[/QUOTE]
Surely now the gaming market can move beyond this mindset. Computer games are no longer purely made for lonely teenage males.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;39923131]
This video is stupid because it assumes the point of her video was to tell you "hey hey look how SEXIST and EVIL these videogames are get MAD" and then devolves into pure ad hominem instead of doing any kind of analysis on her rhetoric.[/QUOTE]
The way she words her titles was done to make it look like that was the game.
It isn't "Tropes in videogames", it's "Tropes VS Women...", like women are the clear target of the tropes.
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;39923143]But should you punish the one who hurt him only because he's hurt? Or would you rather you have the person who did it explain themselves and make sure they understand what they did.
What if you were in a situation like that?[/QUOTE]
i'd say hi little bobby or whatever your name is, you should be more careful next time, you hurt little billy on accident, say you're sorry.
i dont get what you're trying to prove with this stupid analogy
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923153]The way she words her titles was done to make it look like that was the game.
It isn't "Tropes in videogames", it's "Tropes VS Women...", like women are the clear target of the tropes.[/QUOTE]
they are
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923084]since society deemed it one (forever)
what[/QUOTE]
Since evolution decided it for us. Men went out to hunt and kill predators. Women stayed indoors and were protected.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923160]i'd say hi little bobby or whatever your name is, you should be more careful next time, you hurt little billy on accident, say you're sorry.
i dont get what you're trying to prove with this stupid analogy[/QUOTE]
I'm just making polite conversation while challenging your beliefs and ethics, but I guess my points are stupid now.
I'm sorry.
I'm out.
This is hopeless.
You're doing this on purpose
You win, you tricked me.
We went from, the tropes are trying to damage women, to they aren't (which you said they didn't), then to they are again.
This is what I'm talking about with circular logic.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=entertainer89;39923173]Since evolution decided it for us. Men went out to hunt and kill predators. Women stayed indoors and were protected.[/QUOTE]
Lions aren't like that.
edit: which is irrelevant
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39923069]Even then I still fail to see how kids games having these 7 second stories is so damning to the role of women in society. Believe it or not kids are pretty fucking smart and once they realize cooties don't exist they generally tend to realize these stories for what they are.
If these little, fucking stupid stories in video games are so damning the role of women in society then violent video games probably have an even bigger impact than we thought!!!![/QUOTE]
The problem is that you are overestimating the capability for guys to grow up. When you grow up in a society that privileges your gender over the other, it is easy to get older without growing up. It is the same thing for people with privileged race/religion/culture, etc. When society reinforces you as the default and as the "right" one, maturity is harder to obtain.
I've seen people getting degrees in a variety of intense fields, and learning the art of debate, and then turning into 8 year olds when the subject of misogyny comes up.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
