[QUOTE=entertainer89;39923173]Since evolution decided it for us. Men went out to hunt and kill predators. Women stayed indoors and were protected.[/QUOTE]
And as evidence I would put it to you that men are now much weaker than our ancestors. We no longer need to work so hard and so we've become less built up. Obesity is rife in society.
[QUOTE=Untouch;39923153]The way she words her titles was done to make it look like that was the game.
It isn't "Tropes in videogames", it's "Tropes VS Women...", like women are the clear target of the tropes.[/QUOTE]
Alright, the title is misleading, I'll give you that. Still has nothing to do with what I said, the title may make it sound like it's about that, but the video itself isn't.
Then again most people who got touchy over it didn't even watch it so
Honestly, I could write a paper on this phenomenon: "Manbabies in Western Society: How being in the most privileged groups of society inhibits maturity in terms of communication and awareness of discrimination"
[QUOTE=person11;39923048]Why are we not talking about men? Men obviously need to be mentioned more in this discussion about women being discriminated in video games? Why is my demographic not getting proper treatment? It is not like men are always considered the default in society and in video games or anything, nosiree. Here look, a game with no women as main characters, this does not play into the trope![/QUOTE]
Well why not? Why focus on just one side of this? The broader topic is gender as a whole, not just [I]one view[/I] on [I]one half[/I] of the gender subject. Plus when analyzing gender roles as a whole you get shit like Luigi's Mansion which is an interesting flip on her argument.
Plus in a game where there is a "strong female lead" that is still redefining the[I] stereotypical role for her gender[/I]! Subsequently you may not have the macho macho male lead in the same game, once again [I]redefining [/I]the male role.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role[/URL]
Works both ways. If you want to empower women in their roles then subsequently, from a different point of view, the male's role is altered as well (and, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a bad thing).
[QUOTE=harryh11;39923148]Surely now the gaming market can move beyond this mindset. Computer games are no longer purely made for lonely teenage males.[/QUOTE]
Yet they don't, a la the point of the TvW.
And while the market isn't only for lonely teenage male, the market is still dominated by teenage males. While it is getting more diverse, the focus is still on them. Which is why half of RPG games still feature ridiculously sexualized female characters in skimpy clothing and buff males in reasonable armor, and women are notably scarce in FPS games- mostly only male fantasy roles of the strong soldier defending freedom or whatever. And even in casual games, like the TvW video was keen to point out, women are still used as the slap-on plot, or at the very least receive no positive feminine traits or strong female qualities.
The market is moving away from this, but it's doing so slowly.
[QUOTE=Untouch;39922839]here
women this time, that means you're allowed watching it
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj29-hepBiA[/media][/QUOTE]
This is a good video imho.
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;39923174]I'm just making polite conversation while challenging your beliefs and ethics, but I guess my points are stupid now.
I'm sorry.[/QUOTE]
well you're proving me right if anything, I would do the same thing to the gaming industry
hi little game industry, you should include more strong female characters next time, you're portraying women negatively, say you're sorry.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39923069]Even then I still fail to see how kids games having these 7 second stories is so damning to the role of women in society.[/QUOTE]
It isn't. It's mind-boggling that people are even bothering to argue about such an incredibly mundane trope and its role in video games (which isn't much).
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39923210]Well why not? Why focus on just one side of this? The broader topic is gender as a whole, not just [I]one view[/I] on [I]one half[/I] of the gender subject. Plus when analyzing gender roles as a whole you get shit like Luigi's Mansion which is an interesting flip on her argument.
Plus in a game where there is a "strong female lead" that is still redefining the[I] stereotypical role for her gender[/I]! Subsequently you may not have the macho macho male lead in the same game, once again [I]redefining [/I]the male role.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role[/URL]
Works both ways. If you want to empower women in their roles then subsequently, from a different point of view, the male's role is altered as well (and, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a bad thing).[/QUOTE]
so are you on our side now, but only if we think about the poor men?
[QUOTE=entertainer89;39923173]Since evolution decided it for us. Men went out to hunt and kill predators. Women stayed indoors and were protected.[/QUOTE]
watch out it's time for biotruths!
First 7 minutes and 20 seconds are pretty bad really, but then it suddenly gets good and reasonable.
So I recommend you watch from that onwards instead of [B]stopping there[/B] and basing your judgement off that.
It is true that male attitudes towards women has to change in terms of roles in video games and in real life, but the way you phrased it reminded me of an MRA, who are the kind of people who do not understand that discussions on misogyny should be mostly about women. Sorry
Agree with him 100%.
Honestly I'm all for women's rights.
But we're different.
Women need to embrace who they are, and not try to be what they aren't.
Heck, I wouldn't mind being a women. There's nothing BAD about it. We are meant to be different, that's why there are 2 sexes. Some people aren't happy with that, they get sex change. Cool beans, go for it! Be who you want.
Just sick of these people complaining that men are trying to keep women in chains when in reality not like that, and any difference is just the way our species works, down to the biological core.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923228]well you're proving me right if anything, I would do the same thing to the gaming industry
hi little game industry, you should include [b]more strong female characters[/b] next time, you're portraying women negatively, say you're sorry.[/QUOTE]
Lara Croft, Faith, Princess Daisy, Sam, Faridah Malik, Alyx Vance...
This list goes on and on.
all I have learnt from this endless bickering on the topic is that literally no one is correct
its like analysing a work of literature for something that wasn't intended in the first place
except instead of a work of literature, it's the other side's argument
[QUOTE=Glitchman;39923256]Agree with him 100%.
Honestly I'm all for women's rights.
But we're different.
Women need to embrace who they are, and not try to be what they aren't.
Heck, I wouldn't mind being a women. There's nothing BAD about it. We are meant to be different, that's why there are 2 sexes. Some people aren't happy with that, they get sex change. Cool beans, go for it! Be who you want.
Just sick of these people complaining that men are trying to keep women in chains when in reality not like that, and any difference is just the way our species works, down to the biological core.[/QUOTE]
What would you describe as "women trying to be what they aren't" though?
Really, not trying to be a dick. It's a genuine question.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923239]so are you on our side now, but only if we think about the poor men?[/QUOTE]
Way to:
1) Not read what I posted: "(and, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a bad thing)" and put some words in my mouth
2) View the subject of equality as having to focus on the inequality rather than the whole
3) Still miss my point entirely.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923146]society says strength = masculine[/QUOTE]
Maybe I'm missing something, but is greater physical strength not an inherent biological male trait?
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39923289]Way to:
1) Not read what I posted: "(and, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is a bad thing)" and put some words in my mouth
2) View the subject of equality as having to focus on the inequality rather than the whole
3) Still miss my point entirely.[/QUOTE]
You're concern trolling, men are harmed a lot less than women by men being portrayed as powerful heroes, all it really does is show that they're somehow emotionless and stuff.
Also a women made this to examine womens issues, you're completely welcome to make a Tropes v Men or Tropes v Eaglelibrarian if you want, but all I see you doing is criticizing a woman for the way she's doing good.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=sixtyten;39923320]Maybe I'm missing something, but is greater physical strength not an inherent biological male trait?[/QUOTE]
no, it's not
[QUOTE=Talishmar;39923245]First 7 minutes and 20 seconds are pretty bad really, but then it suddenly gets good and reasonable.
So I recommend you watch from that onwards instead of [B]stopping there[/B] and basing your judgement off that.[/QUOTE]
No, it gets even worse. I'm not even sure if this video was serious. The more I think of this video, the more I think the author is either retarded and lives in his own world without looking at the big picture or this is a sarcasm/troll/flamebait video.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923239]so are you on our side now, but only if we think about the poor men?[/QUOTE]
I assume you want equality for all people, yes?
I want that too, I want to see people get along, I want to be friends with everyone, I want everybody to be happy. Shit, my life's goal is to make as many people as I can smile and feel better about life.
But wait, how can we have equality and all that if we ignore the issues of the other side of this?
Might I remind you, males make up around 50% of our species and they too have problems.
Why would you ever ignore that? That's an incredible ignorant and destructive mindset you have.
I'm done posting in this topic, there is just nothing more I can even say. I'm at a loss for words.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923331]no, it's not[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the incredibly detailed counterargument.
[QUOTE=Katatonic717;39923343]I assume you want equality for all people, yes?
I want that too, I want to see people get along, I want to be friends with everyone, I want everybody to be happy. Shit, my life's goal is to make as many people as I can smile and feel better about life.
But wait, how can we have equality and all that if we ignore the issues of the other side of this?
Might I remind you, males make up around 50% of our species and they too have problems.
Why would you ever ignore that? That's an incredible ignorant and destructive mindset you have.
I'm done posting in this topic, there is just nothing more I can ever say. I'm at a loss for words.[/QUOTE]
the issues that poor oppressed men face are a cause of the patriarchy saying womanly = bad and men that are feminine = bad basically, the problems are largely solved for men when the womens problems are solved.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=sixtyten;39923359]Thanks for the incredibly detailed counterargument.[/QUOTE]
you asked a yes or no question...
I mean, seriously, first he makes a long fucking point about how the goal of saving women is a caring thing and goes on and on and on but then says how men are portrayed as dumb masculine puppets that are controlled by the woman and how it shows men in bad light. Dumb and caring/empathic don't really mix that well, so which is it? Saving because caring or because puppets?
[QUOTE=Glitchman;39923256]Agree with him 100%.
Honestly I'm all for women's rights.
But we're different.
Women need to embrace who they are, and not try to be what they aren't.
Heck, I wouldn't mind being a women. There's nothing BAD about it. We are meant to be different, that's why there are 2 sexes. Some people aren't happy with that, they get sex change. Cool beans, go for it! Be who you want.
Just sick of these people complaining that men are trying to keep women in chains when in reality not like that, and any difference is just the way our species works, down to the biological core.[/QUOTE]
Holy mother of fuck. "Be who you want! Unless you want to be something that society has deemed not appropriate for your gender. In that case get a sex change."
Amazing. You solved it.
I mean I'm sure we are quite biologically different but i think we can agree that in modern times it makes practically no difference to your abilities. (Disregarding sexism etc. which we know ain't cool.)
This sounds like the reasoning of someone on youtube who said "Black people have different brains to ours. They are more submissive. They need to realise that they should not expect to become leaders in our society." (Not exact words.)
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923363]you asked a yes or no question...[/QUOTE]
I was implicitly asking for evidence.
[QUOTE=Shadaez;39923331]You're concern trolling, men are harmed a lot less than women by men being portrayed as powerful heroes, all it really does is show that they're somehow emotionless and stuff.
Also a women made this to examine womens issues, you're completely welcome to make a Tropes v Men or Tropes v Eaglelibrarian if you want, but all I see you doing is criticizing a woman for the way she's doing good.
[/QUOTE]
I'm criticizing her because I can and I think she doesn't really know what she is talking about. In your words she just wants to focus on the "poor women." This is evident by her complete and total lack of solutions, just a "oh woe is us womens" circlejerk in an attempt to bring attention to herself (and also shown in all her videos, not just TvW). Maybe if she left the comments on in an attempt to encourage the discussion I could see something else in her motives (I will, however, also recognize the counter argument that youtube is a horrid place).
At this point it kind of seems to me like you're whiteknighting (ready to jump to the blind defense of all internet womens, anywhere!). You're on my case for attacking one woman, who is just a (as in one) person. It's exactly like the people who call Bill Maher sexist because he said Ann Coulter was a stupid woman. He called her that because she is stupid and happens to be a woman, not because she's a woman and that makes her stupid. Just because I "attack" one person does not mean I am attacking any sort of group(s) they belong to. Much like how I'm not "attacking" whatever ethnic group she belongs to.
And again, I seriously doubt [I]women are harmed in any way[/I] by these pathetic video game stories. But I don't know for sure. Have you done research on it? The TvW lady sure as fuck hasn't.
If you want to redefine the role for women you must also redefine the role for men and this is not only a more interesting subject / argument but is the [B]actual [/B]/ more broad argument here.
[QUOTE=entertainer89;39923173]Since evolution decided it for us. Men went out to hunt and kill predators. Women stayed indoors and were protected.[/QUOTE]
Actually if you are looking for the evolutionary point of males, it more than likely started as a way for females to transfer genes. Look at daphnia, they only produce male offspring when they are under stress and need to increase their rate of adaption. Many species still only have females, and quite a few reptiles still can produce offspring through parthenogenesis without a male. This is pointless when looking at society, but still interesting. People act like males where always these big protectors when you look back to the beginnings they where little more than tools for females to trade genetic material.
It is not important to this debate, but since you are bringing up sexual dimorphism in evolutionary history I thought I would put in my two cents.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39923441]I'm criticizing her because I can and I think she doesn't really know what she is talking about. In your words she just wants to focus on the "poor women." This is evident by her complete and total lack of solutions, just a "oh woe is us womens" circlejerk in an attempt to bring attention to herself (and also shown in all her videos, not just TvW). Maybe if she left the comments on in an attempt to encourage the discussion I could see something else in her motives (I will, however, also recognize the counter argument that youtube is a horrid place).
At this point it kind of seems to me like you're whiteknighting[/QUOTE]
stopped reading there
nobody's going to take that seriously if you're going to throw that term around seriously in a dumb attempt at shutting down an argument
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;39923441]I'm criticizing her because I can and I think she doesn't really know what she is talking about. In your words she just wants to focus on the "poor women." This is evident by her complete and total lack of solutions, just a "oh woe is us womens" circlejerk in an attempt to bring attention to herself (and also shown in all her videos, not just TvW). Maybe if she left the comments on in an attempt to encourage the discussion I could see something else in her motives (I will, however, also recognize the counter argument that youtube is a horrid place).[/QUOTE]
and she never claimed to do anything else
and guess what, when I posted the video it reached 1000 posts, the videos are doing their job
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