[QUOTE=Untouch;39923153]The way she words her titles was done to make it look like that was the game.
It isn't "Tropes in videogames", it's "Tropes VS Women...", like women are the clear target of the tropes.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's an excuse not to watch the actual content in the video. I know that information is easy to misinterpret when it doesn't align with your belief, but still give yours a benefit of doubt.
Yes, the female protagonist in DD does hit the antagonist in the crotch, but it still doesn't make her a good female character. If you've watched her video, Anita pointed out that male characters don't sit in prisons for hours whilst waiting for someone, they use their wit to get out of it ASAP. Look at Snake and Link.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39924394]They never mention the fact that modern games are becoming far, far better at representing women. A lot of games feature prominent female characters who do just as much as the men do. Tomb Raider was rebooted to turn a sex symbol into a realistic female protagonist. the new bioshock is going to featuring Elizabeth as a prominent main character. The uncharted series featured a lot of major female treasure hunter characters. The last of us is centered around a teenage girl in the apocalypse. Hell even the manly bro game series like gears of war and killzone have started featuring female soldiers.[/QUOTE]
She is going to have a video on positive female characters in the future...
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39924391]these games more often than not don't illustrate the loving and caring relationship that would motivate the protagonist to pursue the damsel in distress. it turns the damsel into a reward and an object rather than a real character that you feel any emotional motivation to save.[/QUOTE]
Mario is saving peach because he cares.
Link is saving Zelda because she helps save the fucking world.
No one fucking thinks that damsels are just some object or reward except hysterics.
Actually, the majority dont even think twice because the majority of gamers really dont get that invested.
Seriously the only people complaining about this are being extremely petty and nitpicking at the smallest shit to make any sort of argument.
Damsels in distress is probably the oldest fucking story telling plot in since the dawn of time.
There are bigger issues then saving a fucking women in a video game.
Please show me proof that damsels in distress has damaged something, please I really want to see.
[QUOTE=Winters;39924477]She is going to have a video on positive female characters in the future...[/QUOTE]
i personally would have structured my videos so that there is some positive stuff in each edition. in "damsel in distress", after going over prominent examples of the trope you go through and look at games that might have turned the trope on its head or broke through that idea.
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39924437]I don't think it's an excuse not to watch the actual content in the video. I know that information is easy to misinterpret when it doesn't align with your belief, but still give yours a benefit of doubt.
Yes, the female protagonist in DD does hit the antagonist in the crotch, but it still doesn't make her a good female character. If you've watched her video, Anita pointed out that male characters don't sit in prisons for hours whilst waiting for someone, they use their wit to get out of it ASAP. Look at Snake and Link.[/QUOTE]
There are plenty of games were male characters are imprisoned until someone helps them escape. In dishonored Corvo is stuck in his cell for months until the resistance can get him out. In Oblivion your character starts off imprisoned until you're helped. In the witcher 2 you're stuck in the dungeons being tortured until your interrogation.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39924228]no. the the problem is you shouldn't assume gender differences without actual evidence. most "evidence" for biological gender differences can be traceable to a cultural conception of gender roles. if you want to list specific examples of how women and men think differently, you should back it up with legitimate evidence.[/QUOTE]
I don't have anything to back it up but my point was that if genders are biologically different, then it's pretty safe to assume that mentally and emotionally they are different as well based of the fact that mental and emotion functions are biological in the first place. You can't have biologically identical brain but have different mental/emotional structure.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39924508]i personally would have structured my videos so that there is some positive stuff in each edition. in "damsel in distress", after going over prominent examples of the trope you go through and look at games that might have turned the trope on its head or broke through that idea.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I think that would've been the ideal as well, only hearing the negative side for so long will probably have people leaving the video upset (hence all the angry responses).
[QUOTE=DTkach;39924337]Guy made some really good points. I remember the first time I watched that Tropes VS Woman video, the whole "SAVING WOMEN OBJECTIFIES THEM" really struck a cord. She honestly believes that pursuing a loved one with the intent to rescue them from danger equates to objectifying them, and regarding them as a possession.
You cannot make this shit up. It's just laughable.[/QUOTE]
Many people misinterpret her point for some reason. She isn't criticizing male characters for pursuing women, she's criticizing the female characters who can't do anything at all when kidnapped. The odd thing is that some of those female characters have a stronger special ability [sp]Zelda[/sp] than the protagonist who attempted to save them.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39924520]There are plenty of games were male characters are imprisoned until someone helps them escape. In dishonored Corvo is stuck in his cell for months until the resistance can get him out. In Oblivion your character starts off imprisoned until you're helped. In the witcher 2 you're stuck in the dungeons being tortured until your interrogation.[/QUOTE]
and there you've shown that the trope isn't used in every game ever. the thing is that the trope is used more with women than men. it's far more common to be rescuing the helpless woman. the point of these videos isn't "every game has a woman damsel in distress", the point is that these situations have been overplayed to the point where it shows laziness on the part of the writer and helps to push an expectation of women in submissive roles to men.
[QUOTE=DTkach;39924337]Guy made some really good points. I remember the first time I watched that Tropes VS Woman video, the whole "SAVING WOMEN OBJECTIFIES THEM" really struck a cord. She honestly believes that pursuing a loved one with the intent to rescue them from danger equates to objectifying them, and regarding them as a possession.
You cannot make this shit up. It's just laughable.[/QUOTE]
He has made the odd good point, but I think games still need to diversify their story's instead of the old guy saves girl thing. There aren't a whole lot of games with female main characters that most women could identify with which is a shame but the Tropes VS Woman thing isn't going to help. I can see the odd point she is trying to get at, but it's done in a very demonizing way.
There needs to be more character development both male, female. While I think the Tropes vs Women wasn't presented the right way we should still use this opportunity to show publishers that people want more from games in both storyline and characters.
[QUOTE=maqzek;39924540]I don't have anything to back it up but my point was that if genders are biologically different, then it's pretty safe to assume that mentally and emotionally they are different as well based of the fact that mental and emotion functions are biological in the first place. You can't have biologically identical brain but have different mental/emotional structure.[/QUOTE]
um yea you can otherwise transgendered people wouldn't exist. like i said, i'm not knocking the idea of any sort of gender difference. gender identity definitely exists. what i'm criticizing is specific examples of gender difference that are either circular in nature(a caused b because b caused a) or not backed up by evidence that shows biological(not cultural) cause.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39924520]There are plenty of games were male characters are imprisoned until someone helps them escape. In dishonored Corvo is stuck in his cell for months until the resistance can get him out. In Oblivion your character starts off imprisoned until you're helped. In the witcher 2 you're stuck in the dungeons being tortured until your interrogation.[/QUOTE]
In the witcher you basically get out on your own, Vernon helps you a long a little bit but you do most of the sneaking out yourself. As opposed to Mary Louisa who you have to basically help out of that same prison. (Although TBF you have to help Aaryan in the same way.)
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39924437]Anita pointed out that male characters don't sit in prisons for hours whilst waiting for someone, they use their wit to get out of it ASAP. Look at Snake and Link.[/QUOTE]
not at all, a lot of male characters just sit in there waiting for someone.
The 2 you mentioned were main characters, so they had to get out of it ASAP for plot reasons.
(also fuck my brain I keep confusing book plots with video game plots nowadays, I guess I'm reading more books than playing games)
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39924391]these games more often than not don't illustrate the loving and caring relationship that would motivate the protagonist to pursue the damsel in distress. it turns the damsel into a reward and an object rather than a real character that you feel any emotional motivation to save.[/QUOTE]
these games are set up by a shallow plot point to introduce a shallow experience. I don't see what is wrong with this. I want to have a fun experience not read a book.
[QUOTE=trotskygrad;39924590]not at all, a lot of male characters just sit in there waiting for someone.
The 2 you mentioned were main characters, so they had to get out of it ASAP for plot reasons.
(also fuck my brain I keep confusing book plots with video game plots nowadays, I guess I'm reading more books than playing games)[/QUOTE]
If the player misses the opportunity to trick the guard in MGS Cyber Ninja frees snake.
I'm just going to repost from another thread because it fits here moreso than the other thread:
Eh, there is a cultural influence and a genetic influence. But obviously the genetic influence is not that powerful or it would be obvious in society.
There is obviously an evolutionary and hormone factor, but it's not anywhere near completely that. I think maybe the origin point of societal bias is due to genetics, but the society we live in now has non-genetic bias, where genetic bias is no longer needed to survive.
And that's why "soft" social sciences should be taken into account to understand the deeper level of WHY cultural influences do this and that, and HOW to change them, and find a more non-biased way.
It's not all based on genetics, the origin is, but the society we live in has the ability to change that. The social bias of the society has not changed, while the social structure has changed.
[QUOTE=Villein;39924610]these games are set up by a shallow plot point to introduce a shallow experience. I don't see what is wrong with this. I want to have a fun experience not read a book.[/QUOTE]
It does not matter how many times you guys post this excuse it will never make the trope justifiable.
I mean if they're going for such a simple plot like you say there is a multitude of other things they could've done. They always seem to default on the damsel in distress though... Why is that?
[QUOTE=entertainer89;39922530]
hey, at least he allows comments on his videos ;)[/QUOTE]
nobody is going to threaten to rape him
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39924554]and there you've shown that the trope isn't used in every game ever. the thing is that the trope is used more with women than men. it's far more common to be rescuing the helpless woman. the point of these videos isn't "every game has a woman damsel in distress", the point is that these situations have been overplayed to the point where it shows laziness on the part of the writer and helps to push an expectation of women in submissive roles to men.[/QUOTE]Used more on women than men? You're kidding right?
I can't even begin to describe how many times male characters have been imprisoned or in need of rescue in modern games. There are so many situations in games nowadays were you have to go out of your way to save male characters.
I mean it comes in so many goddamn ways. Help this guy break out of this place. Rescue your captured squad members. Save the hostage. Stop the guards trying to capture your ally. Break the curse placed upon him.
I really can't think of many games that have had you rescue "damsels" in recent memory. Usually the "damsels" are major characters with fleshed out back stories anyways. Can you really name a game in the past year or so that has a "damsel?"
I'd wager that the motivation is not to rescue the girl, other than a slight passing 7 second notion as to say why you are risking your life. If that wasn't in, people would be complaining why they were beating up hordes of people for no reason. The motivation is to beat the game. At the end of Double Dragon, most likely you're not going to be saying "Yay I rescued the girl", you'll be saying "YES I BEAT THIS GAME", and maybe a cutscene tells you that you rescued the girl, to wrap up the simple story line.
This argument doesn't include why they went with rescuing someone, they COULD have gone with an equal story in the same amount of time. But they didn't care about the story, and neither should you, the point of games, is the game. Unless it's a story based game, then maybe they should have thought of something original.
I just watched that RE:Damsel in Distress video, and she went through my point above.
[QUOTE=Winters;39924634]It does not matter how many times you guys post this excuse it will never make the trope justifiable.
I mean if they're going for such a simple plot like you say there is a multitude of other things they could've done. They always seem to default on the damsel in distress though... Why is that?[/QUOTE]
My guess would be because it's ingrained in film, tv and books. I don't mind if the odd game has it but as long as there are a lot of original plot lines which sadly isn't the case.
[QUOTE=Winters;39924581]In the witcher you basically get out on your own, Vernon helps you a long a little bit but you do most of the sneaking out yourself. As opposed to Mary Louisa who you have to basically help out of that same prison. (Although TBF you have to help Aaryan in the same way.)[/QUOTE]
Actually, If it wasn't for Vernon Geralt would have been killed and executed. The only reason Geralt was even able to escape was because Vernon gave him the key.
Also, The reason why Mary Louissa couldn't escape wasn't because she was a woman. It was for two reasons. First, she didn't have someone to give her a key, so she couldn't have escaped regardless. Second, she was blinded. How on earth is a blind woman with no key supposed to escape a prison filled with guards?
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39924670]I really can't think of many games that have had you rescue "damsels" in recent memory.[/QUOTE]
Max Payne 3, The Witcher 2, Assassin's creed revelations.
To name a few.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39924670]Used more on women than men? You're kidding right?
I can't even begin to describe how many times male characters have been imprisoned or in need of rescue in modern games. There are so many situations in games nowadays were you have to go out of your way to save male characters.
I mean it comes in so many goddamn ways. Help this guy break out of this place. Rescue your captured squad members. Save the hostage. Stop the guards trying to capture your ally. Break the curse placed upon him.
I really can't think of many games that have had you rescue "damsels" in recent memory. Usually the "damsels" are major characters with fleshed out back stories anyways. Can you really name a game in the past year or so that has a "damsel?"[/QUOTE]
You do make a good point that antagonists usually kidnap for power instead of love. However, I think she's referring to how incompetent the female characters are. Despite Zelda being proficient in magic and combat, she still can't escape from Ganondorf. Despite Peach being the ruler of mushroom kingdom, she gets kidnapped constantly. In the games I've played, the male VIPs I've rescued weren't portrayed as emotionally and physically frail.
Anyway, she's mostly criticizing it as a overused plot device than a sexist one. I don't see anything wrong with variety.
Hitman: Absolution.
[QUOTE=Winters;39924634]It does not matter how many times you guys post this excuse it will never make the trope justifiable.
I mean if they're going for such a simple plot like you say there is a multitude of other things they could've done. They always seem to default on the damsel in distress though... Why is that?[/QUOTE]
Damsel in distress in easy to write and gets the objective across easily as others in the thread have stated. It is proven to work. Plenty of games move away from using damsel in distress as a plot point. Those multitude of other things that could've been done probably has been done. I can think of several arcade games where the motivation is not to save a damsel in distress and can play as female characters (See: Aliens vs. Predator Arcade Game, Metal Slug, etc). Just because some writers take the easy way out doesn't mean "they" always "default" on "it". Be real here a game isn't -usually- for the gripping story it's for the fun experience.
Its like people never want women to be captured and saved again in video games.
honestly, if we want genders to be equal in treatment, it's going to be tough to define what point is a middleground. Do we find it bad when women are used for more rescue roles than not? Do we find it bad when men are always used for the badass main protagonist? Wouldn't it be equally offensive objectifying men into that? And remember that most games nowadays are created mostly with marketing demographics in mind. And objectifying women in a game mostly 13 year old boys are going to play is not attacking women, it's a marketing tactic to appeal to a certain audience. They don't do these things out of pure hatred, and you don't see me complaining when a twilight movie is released and it objectifies men...
If we're going to treat genders equally, then why do we have to adapt to the need of one gender any more so than the other?
[QUOTE=Winters;39924744]Max Payne 3, The Witcher 2, Assassin's creed revelations.
To name a few.[/QUOTE]
Not really.
Max Payne 3 you were hired by the family to act as bodyguards. The people came and abducted male and female members of the family. Max wasn't saving the daughter because she was a woman, he was doing it because it was his job.
Triss in the Witcher 2 wasn't really a damsel. It was established that she was the court Mage and very politically involved. She was abducted because of opposing political motives, not to act as something to lure in Geralt.
I didn't really like Ezios love interest in revelations, but I don't really think she was there to serve as a damsel. Revelations tells the end of Ezios story, and they had to give Ezio a person to settle down with to explain his genes being passed on through genetic memory. No offspring means no genetic memory passed down. No genetic memory of Ezio means it'd be impossible for Desmond to relive the memories.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39924670]Used more on women than men? You're kidding right?
I can't even begin to describe how many times male characters have been imprisoned or in need of rescue in modern games. There are so many situations in games nowadays were you have to go out of your way to save male characters.
I mean it comes in so many goddamn ways. Help this guy break out of this place. Rescue your captured squad members. Save the hostage. Stop the guards trying to capture your ally. Break the curse placed upon him.
I really can't think of many games that have had you rescue "damsels" in recent memory. Usually the "damsels" are major characters with fleshed out back stories anyways. Can you really name a game in the past year or so that has a "damsel?"[/QUOTE]
It's all good and dandy, but you're missing the point. Rescuing those men aren't the main goal of the game. Her point is that women are used as a goal, that holy grail that you have to get to beat the game. Get it and you're done. Nobody is saying that men are never imprisoned or captured, but it's usually not the main quest. How many games did you play that you had to save a guy that was captured and was unable to escape on his own. This guy also has to be someone that you care about.
[QUOTE=patq911;39924672]I'd wager that the motivation is not to rescue the girl, other than a slight passing 7 second notion as to say why you are risking your life. If that wasn't in, people would be complaining why they were beating up hordes of people for no reason. The motivation is to beat the game. At the end of Double Dragon, most likely you're not going to be saying "Yay I rescued the girl", you'll be saying "YES I BEAT THIS GAME", and maybe a cutscene tells you that you rescued the girl, to wrap up the simple story line.
This argument doesn't include why they went with rescuing someone, they COULD have gone with an equal story in the same amount of time. But they didn't care about the story, and neither should you, the point of games, is the game. Unless it's a story based game, then maybe they should have thought of something original.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you're right but it doesn't have to be a girl, but if it needs to be a one then I'm sure you could come up with something better than LOLKIDNAPPED. For all you know, you can always excuse beating people up to get to the That Evil Guy that is trying to nuke the city/take over the world/do something more evil.
And yeah, you beat the game, but that is exactly the point. The girl is the "BEAT THIS GAME" thing, not a character that you care about.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39924806]Its like people never want women to be captured and saved again in video games.[/QUOTE]
Not if the script/storyline is sloppy. I mean, I don't mind a mario game to save the princess, but I also don't mind a mario game to save his little cat or save the The Magic Something™.
[QUOTE=lifehole;39924828]honestly, if we want genders to be equal in treatment, it's going to be tough to define what point is a middleground. Do we find it bad when women are used for more rescue roles than not? Do we find it bad when men are always used for the badass main protagonist? Wouldn't it be equally offensive objectifying men into that? And remember that most games nowadays are created mostly with marketing demographics in mind. And objectifying women in a game mostly 13 year old boys are going to play is not attacking women, it's a marketing tactic to appeal to a certain audience. They don't do these things out of pure hatred, and you don't see me complaining when a twilight movie is released and it objectifies men...
If we're going to treat genders equally, then why do we have to adapt to the need of one gender any more so than the other?[/QUOTE]
It's not about equal treatment, it's about making woman less helpless and have more character/depth to them. It wouldn't be bad if you have to rescue your girlfriend/sister/fiance, just as long as she plays some interesting role as well instead of being This Thing That You Have To Rescue.
It also comes to down that it is hard to come up with a good Damsel in Distress storyline/script, but developers still try to tackle it. I suppose recent Tomb Raider is a good example. I haven't beaten it yet, but most of the stuff I hear is that it's a good game. So the point is that unless you have a good writer, don't use Damsel in Distress trope. Not because it's sexist but because it would be a bad storyline and/or writting/acting, which isn't appreciated by people who play the game, regardless of the gender.
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39924793]You do make a good point that antagonists usually kidnap for power instead of love. However, I think she's referring to how incompetent the female characters are. Despite Zelda being proficient in magic and combat, she still can't escape from Ganondorf. Despite Peach being the ruler of mushroom kingdom, she gets kidnapped constantly. In the games I've played, the male VIPs I've rescued weren't portrayed as emotionally and physically frail.
Anyway, she's mostly criticizing it as a overused plot device than a sexist one. I don't see anything wrong with variety.
Hitman: Absolution.[/QUOTE]
In regards to Zelda and Mario games, the reason why peach and Zelda never do much is more because the games stick to the traditional plot that's been used for years. It's not Nintendo being sexist, it's just Nintendo being afraid to try something new. People have grown attached to the setup, and changing it would anger a lot of fans Id imagine.
I can't really say anything about Hitman Absolution seeing as I've only played through the very beggining.
[QUOTE=lifehole;39924828]honestly, if we want genders to be equal in treatment, it's going to be tough to define what point is a middleground. Do we find it bad when women are used for more rescue roles than not? Do we find it bad when men are always used for the badass main protagonist? Wouldn't it be equally offensive objectifying men into that? And remember that most games nowadays are created mostly with marketing demographics in mind. And objectifying women in a game mostly 13 year old boys are going to play is not attacking women, it's a marketing tactic to appeal to a certain audience. They don't do these things out of pure hatred, and you don't see me complaining when a twilight movie is released and it objectifies men...
If we're going to treat genders equally, then why do we have to adapt to the need of one gender any more so than the other?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't mind the fact that female characters are kidnapped. What I notice that they're usually incapable of handling the situation. I don't view the abandonment of the plot device as a censorship of fiction, but an extension of it. Why? In your post, you do mention that the creative ideas are sometimes handled by the publisher in order to make profit. I believe that this could damage the creativity of the developer. There are some instances where character designs are rejected for "not looking sexy". It's rather disappointing that some publishers still think that gamers are a bunch of morons who scan for tits on the box cover. By demanding for variety, the publishers may consider it.
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