[QUOTE=Zeke129;39924635]nobody is going to threaten to rape him[/QUOTE]
I might ;)
no but really, you don't know that.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;39924635]nobody is going to threaten to rape him[/QUOTE]
Probably not, but that doesnt mean he won't be threatened and harassed. People can be cunts regardless of gender.
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39925077]I wouldn't mind the fact that female characters are kidnapped. What I notice that they're usually incapable of handling the situation. I don't view the abandonment of the plot device as a censorship of fiction, but an extension of it. Why? In your post, you do mention that the creative ideas are sometimes handled by the publisher in order to make profit. I believe that this could damage the creativity of the developer. There are some instances where character designs are rejected for "not looking sexy". It's rather disappointing that some publishers still think that gamers are a bunch of morons who scan for tits on the box cover. By demanding for variety, the publishers may consider it.[/QUOTE]
Believe me when I say gamers are a bunch of morons that scan for tits on the box cover. They use these tactics because it works, and it's almost always going to work, and there is almost no marketing penalty to doing it. Women being objectified for lazy storytelling is no worse than a man being the tough guy protagonist.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=maqzek;39924954]It's all good and dandy, but you're missing the point. Rescuing those men aren't the main goal of the game. Her point is that women are used as a goal, that holy grail that you have to get to beat the game. Get it and you're done. Nobody is saying that men are never imprisoned or captured, but it's usually not the main quest. How many games did you play that you had to save a guy that was captured and was unable to escape on his own. This guy also has to be someone that you care about.
Yeah, you're right but it doesn't have to be a girl, but if it needs to be a one then I'm sure you could come up with something better than LOLKIDNAPPED. For all you know, you can always excuse beating people up to get to the That Evil Guy that is trying to nuke the city/take over the world/do something more evil.
And yeah, you beat the game, but that is exactly the point. The girl is the "BEAT THIS GAME" thing, not a character that you care about.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
Not if the script/storyline is sloppy. I mean, I don't mind a mario game to save the princess, but I also don't mind a mario game to save his little cat or save the The Magic Something™.
It's not about equal treatment, it's about making woman less helpless and have more character/depth to them. It wouldn't be bad if you have to rescue your girlfriend/sister/fiance, just as long as she plays some interesting role as well instead of being This Thing That You Have To Rescue.
It also comes to down that it is hard to come up with a good Damsel in Distress storyline/script, but developers still try to tackle it. I suppose recent Tomb Raider is a good example. I haven't beaten it yet, but most of the stuff I hear is that it's a good game. So the point is that unless you have a good writer, don't use Damsel in Distress trope. Not because it's sexist but because it would be a bad storyline and/or writting/acting, which isn't appreciated by people who play the game, regardless of the gender.[/QUOTE]
Again, you can't blame bad storytelling for being an offensive trope, and bad storytelling is an opinion. Marketing and laziness in writing is what causes these problems, not hatred of women. If you want to fix this problem, tackle the quality of the writing and the marketing department of the developers/publishers/corporation, and stop complaining that there is a specific bias or hatred involved. (not saying YOU in specific are, but that's the issue.)
[QUOTE=lifehole;39924828]honestly, if we want genders to be equal in treatment, it's going to be tough to define what point is a middleground. Do we find it bad when women are used for more rescue roles than not? Do we find it bad when men are always used for the badass main protagonist? Wouldn't it be equally offensive objectifying men into that? And remember that most games nowadays are created mostly with marketing demographics in mind. And objectifying women in a game mostly 13 year old boys are going to play is not attacking women, it's a marketing tactic to appeal to a certain audience. They don't do these things out of pure hatred, and you don't see me complaining when a twilight movie is released and it objectifies men...
If we're going to treat genders equally, then why do we have to adapt to the need of one gender any more so than the other?[/QUOTE]
There can't be a middle ground because it's impossible to please feminist "gamers". If a female character shows any signs of weakness or reliance on any character they say it's sexism, and if she's strong and independent they just say she's pretending to be a man. Doesn't matter how good the character actually is, if they're anything less than 100% perfection it's a misogynist plot funded by our patriarch rape society to force the female population into societal gender roles. And even if the character miraculously matches the feminist idea of perfection they'll over analyze the fuck out of her anyway and still find something to whine about.
[QUOTE=JustGman;39925377]There can't be a middle ground because it's impossible to please feminist gamers. If a female character shows any signs of weakness or reliance on a any character they say it's sexism, and if she's strong and independent they just say she's pretending to be a man. Doesn't matter how good the character actually is, if they're anything less than 100% perfection it's a misogynist plot funded by our patriarch rape society to force the female population into societal gender roles.[/QUOTE]
a bit aggressive and subjecting all "feminists" into "trope crazy feminists", but yeah.
[QUOTE=lifehole;39925396]a bit aggressive and subjecting all "feminists" into "trope crazy feminists", but yeah.[/QUOTE]
Not all of them, but a clear majority of the cult of sarkeesian are.
[QUOTE=lifehole;39925300]Believe me when I say gamers are a bunch of morons that scan for tits on the box cover. They use these tactics because it works, and it's almost always going to work, and there is almost no marketing penalty to doing it. Women being objectified for lazy storytelling is no worse than a man being the tough guy protagonist.
[editline]15th March 2013[/editline]
Again, you can't blame bad storytelling for being an offensive trope, and bad storytelling is an opinion. Marketing and laziness in writing is what causes these problems, not hatred of women. If you want to fix this problem, tackle the quality of the writing and the marketing department of the developers/publishers/corporation, and stop complaining that there is a specific bias or hatred involved. (not saying YOU in specific are, but that's the issue.)[/QUOTE]
I dont believe you on gamers being morons and just scanning for tits on a box, I think they are scanning to see if its a good or shit game, you are really generalizing gamers.
See, companys think women sell in video games, but they really dont compared to TV or Movies.
Wanna know why? They are fake, its not the same effect, its a bunch of polygons.
Sure you get a very small minority of weirdos who take it too far but those are not exclusive to gaming.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39925437]I dont believe you on gamers being morons and just scanning for tits on a box, I think they are scanning to see if its a good or shit game, you are really generalizing gamers.
See, companys think women sell in video games, but they really dont compared to TV or Movies.
Wanna know why? They are fake, its not the same effect, its a bunch of polygons.
Sure you get a very small minority of weirdos who take it too far but those are not exclusive to gaming.[/QUOTE]
movies are television are just a collection of pixels. what's your point?
[QUOTE=person11;39923736]Maybe, one day, people like you won't be around, so people like Anita won't have to try educating people like you.[/QUOTE]
One day, people like you won't be around, then we won't have someone making snide comments to people.
???
I believe wholesale that HoodedSniper wanted this shitstorm to be over, he wasn't attacking Anita nor her actions but everyone in this thread (and others) along with the entire internet for going batshit when the name "Anita Sarkeesian" is mentioned.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39925437]I dont believe you on gamers being morons and just scanning for tits on a box, I think they are scanning to see if its a good or shit game, you are really generalizing gamers.
See, companys think women sell in video games, but they really dont compared to TV or Movies.
Wanna know why? They are fake, its not the same effect, its a bunch of polygons.
Sure you get a very small minority of weirdos who take it too far but those are not exclusive to gaming.[/QUOTE]
Do you have experience in marketing? If something has the chance to make more money and is barely offensive to the target demographic, then why not? Most games nowadays don't rely on good writing, they rely on whatever sells. And if the people who dedicated their lives to learning how to market efficiently are dumb, and we are apparantly smart/above them (by your statement), then the gaming industry has bigger problems than objectified women.
If this trope thing gets big, then they'll adapt and start writing and displaying what works.
Also, I dunno about you, but characters in videogame, cartoon, animated movies, etc can be quite attractive.
[QUOTE=Keyblockor;39925484]One day, people like you won't be around, then we won't have someone making snide comments to people.
???
I believe wholesale that HoodedSniper wanted this shitstorm to be over, he wasn't attacking Anita nor her actions but everyone in this thread (and others) along with the entire internet for going batshit when the name "Anita Sarkeesian" is mentioned.[/QUOTE]
What's so terrible about discussing socially relevant issues?
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;39925563]What's so terrible about discussing socially relevant issues?[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying discussing socially relevant issues is bad, i'm saying the byproduct of discussing relevant issues on the internet proceeds to create drama making most discussion intolerable. If people went along with Anita Sarkeesian's view or against it in a civil manner I wouldn't mind it. But with the internet you have people becoming childish or doing a plethora of other things.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;39924944]Max wasn't saving the daughter because she was a woman, he was doing it because it was his job.[/QUOTE]
all he does is go on about how he has failed the women in his life and how it's happening to him again. the guy is obsessed with some heroic justice for damsels
but then that is the character of max and i don't think it shows the writers in a bad light at all
[QUOTE=JustGman;39925377]There can't be a middle ground because it's impossible to please feminist "gamers". If a female character shows any signs of weakness or reliance on any character they say it's sexism, and if she's strong and independent they just say she's pretending to be a man. Doesn't matter how good the character actually is, if they're anything less than 100% perfection it's a misogynist plot funded by our patriarch rape society to force the female population into societal gender roles. And even if the character miraculously matches the feminist idea of perfection they'll over analyze the fuck out of her anyway and still find something to whine about.[/QUOTE]
The only reason why it sounds irrational to you is because you don't want to listen to the information provided by her. The main problem with the criticism directed at Anita is that some of them appear to be continuously directed at the title of her videos and not the content inside of them. I see criticism that is either completely nonexistent or entirely exacerbated. She didn't even address the "man with boobs" point yet, give it time.
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;39925804]all he does is go on about how he has failed the women in his life and how it's happening to him again. the guy is obsessed with some heroic justice for damsels
but then that is the character of max and i don't think it shows the writers in a bad light at all[/QUOTE]
[sp]In this case, wouldn't it NOT be sexist at all to both sides? Considering he actually failed at it because the daughter dies, introducing the idea that not everyone can be the hero to serve justice, breaking the typical story of "hero saves princess"?[/sp]
Why does she think everything is a male plot to demoralize females anyway?
why do you think this is what she thinks?
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39926143]why do you think this is what she thinks?[/QUOTE]
I don't think she thinks that, but I think she is really paranoid when it comes to sexism. She seems kinda dead set on believing every game has traces of sexism. I think shes also seeing sexism were there really is none.
tbh, this "pop culture criticizer" has herself 'embodified' a portion of pop culture, feminism and "hipsterism" are both components in pop culture. And honestly, she has to be popular and have people agree with her to cause this much controversy.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39925465]movies are television are just a collection of pixels. what's your point?[/QUOTE]
Maybe because real people are in the majority those movies and television.
Are you fucking dense? What are you trying to get at.
[QUOTE=minilandstan;39926089]Why does she think everything is a male plot to demoralize females anyway?[/QUOTE]
The "patriarchy" that she refers to is a male-dominated industry targeted towards males. It's not a secret ploy to degrade females, but it may be the reason why the plot devices are used.
[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;39926343]The "patriarchy" that she refers to is a male-dominated industry targeted towards males. It's not a secret ploy to degrade females, but it may be the reason why the plot devices are used.[/QUOTE]
"Patriarchy" is a moot word to use in this case then. If you're trying to explain why the plot devices are used you'd use language like "male target audience". All this patriarchy talk is a load of bull.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39926333]Maybe because real people are in the majority those movies and television.
Are you fucking dense? What are you trying to get at.[/QUOTE]
no they aren't, pixels create a representation of people on a screen. the same way that polygons arrange themselves to create a representation of people on a video game.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;39925995][sp]In this case, wouldn't it NOT be sexist at all to both sides? Considering he actually failed at it because the daughter dies, introducing the idea that not everyone can be the hero to serve justice, breaking the typical story of "hero saves princess"?[/sp][/QUOTE]
aye i agree. i wasn't calling out max payne as having a sexist storyline, more that max is just a fucked up person for feeling the need to get involved in 'damsel' situations
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;39926333]Maybe because real people are in the majority those movies and television.
Are you fucking dense? What are you trying to get at.[/QUOTE]
very little TV shows wherein the subject or main characters are human are not scripted
I think arguing about modern society using video games that are over 10 years old is a bit dumb.
But then again, so is arguing for 6 pages with anonymous people on the internet.
His obvious point was cgi vs recorded images.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;39926508]no they aren't, pixels create a representation of people on a screen. the same way that polygons arrange themselves to create a representation of people on a video game.[/QUOTE]
No, those are actually real people you could meet in real life, sure they are acting, but they are real fucking people.
A video game character is fake and made of polygons or drawn all the time with maybe the exception of very few games.
Still dont see your point, you are trying to twist around real life TV/Movie stars not being real people and I really dont understand except you being semantic as fuck.
You arent even worth trying to argue with if you pull bullshit like this, its like a middle school debate.
[QUOTE=lifehole;39926250]"hipsterism"[/QUOTE]
I'm fairly sure that isn't a thing.
Also from the video:
Lot of good points, I feel he could have gone over the characters who DON'T support her theory, like Chell (Portal {A game where the only notable males are a dead executive, a robotic retard and an unseen scientist}), Trishka (Bulletstorm {We have to save that woma-oh, she's busy beating a mutant to death with her bare hands}) or Faith (Mirrors edge {Gravity? The fuck is gravity?}).
Also I get the impressin he liked that nut punching scene, judging by how many times it was shown. Not that I'm complaining. That shit is [I]hilarious.[/I]
[QUOTE=FPChris;39926626]I think arguing about modern society using video games that are over 10 years old is a bit dumb.
But then again, so is arguing for 6 pages with anonymous people on the internet.[/QUOTE]
Except that is the point of a forum? Seriously what's so bad about having a discussion?
And as for using "10 year old games" argument:
[quote]It didn't display all those old games as examples to show you how evil and misogynist they were, but to show you how something that might have been used innocently enough back then was picked up by other developers and became a trend in storytelling that perpetuates sexist ideas to the point that we think of it as "normal" and "not worth discussing" today.
[/quote]
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