[TotalBiscuit] I will now talk about Lootboxes and Gambling for just over 40 minutes - General

Sometimes I wish there were some way to scare the whales away, wherein they realise they have better things to do than waste their money on these wretches. But if we mock, shame and deride them openly, they'll just retreat further into their self-indulgent fantasies, when what we want is for them to just STOP. There needs to be legislation against pay to win, pushed with the force of many millions of dollars, since that's how the world works, depressing as that may be. But again, we have to heed that most tiresome and disgusting of refrains, "and who is going to pay for this?". When in a good world, someone would brew up a terrifying curse to ward people away from these kinds of games without breaking a four figure budget, with publishers at the mercy of something beyond their money-minded comprehension. Something they cannot negotiate with, or sue the pants off of, or call SWAT on: they would only be able to work in such a way as to not bring the curse upon their own heads personally, or have to pay an exorbitant sum to the Church so that they may work on some way to lift the curse.

[QUOTE=ironman17;52760807]Sometimes I wish there were some way to scare the whales away, wherein they realise they have better things to do than waste their money on these wretches. But if we mock, shame and deride them openly, they'll just retreat further into their self-indulgent fantasies, when what we want is for them to just STOP.[/QUOTE] I have buddy that was big in to World of Tanks for a time and he told me a story about how the Chinese version of the game has a solid gold tank that basically gets anyone that takes it into a fight insta-teamkilled. Sounds a little toxic to me, but damn if it ain't funny.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;52760841]it's not a defeatist attitude, the only way to make a company listen is to not buy their shit gamers are like, the most easily manipulated group of media consumers, you can get them to buy fuckin anything and its depressing[/QUOTE] It's worth trying, no matter how effective it is, it will only increase their chances of backpedaling if people speak up. The more people are complaining about this the more potential lost customers there will be currently or in the future. Not to mention, considering the nature of this case it could leave room for passing legislation, even if it isn't too likely (then again the chances of regulations relating to this becoming law will only get greater the harder we try). [editline]October 9 2017[/editline] Though I should also elaborate by saying that the people who complain while still buying the game knowing full well of this bullshit aren't trying, in fact they're pretty much indirectly encouraging these business practices and I wish they knew better. Though the more others persuade them to think twice about spending their money, the louder our voices will be.

Well my small interest in the game is completely gone then. I hope this is not the future of the Battlefield Franchise either.

[QUOTE=kill3r;52760586]'but its only cosmetics but it's okay!!!![/QUOTE] This is what pisses me off about having any sort of discussion about PUBG and the fact that loot crates are in a Early Access game because everyone has drank the Battle Royale Kool-Aid, you can't criticise because 'they're only cosmetics and they're using that money for charity and funding development so it's a good thing'. Despite, you know, raking in so much cash that it makes EA and Activision bristle with jealousy. When you introduce any sort of system that encourages spending real money (sans buying the product, obviously) the game turns from being a game to being an economy disguised as a game where, whether you like it or not, you're participating in all the time. That's why I kind of got a bit iffy with PlayerUnknown's comment about 'If you don't like it, don't participate in it' because it isn't as simple to when the game and the community at large encourage frivolous cosmetic trading. Look at TF2, for fucks sake; there's more trade servers in the browser than actual proper game servers. I love PUBG and I give it so much shit because I want it to be a good product but there are so many problems they're ignoring because they want to micro-transact everything.

I will never take "it doesn't affect the game/it's just cosmetics" for an excuse. Microtransactions intrinsically affect the game, culturally if not technically. Sometimes the price isn't that high and sometimes the price is creating an economy that generates millions, if not billions, of dollars for the company running the show concealed by hints of player participation but barely giving players anything in return. Can you say that CS:GO skins affect the gameplay? No but you'd be lying to yourself if it didn't create an insane culture around a slot machine. There's entire YouTube channels dedicated to wasting hundreds of dollars opening these boxes to overreact when they strike a jackpot, said YouTube channels are often watched by kids, which grooms them for a gambling addiction. I'm seriously surprised that no governments have said their piece about this. You'd think the EU would rip publishers into chunky salsa over unregulated kids gambling.

[QUOTE=Hans-Gunther 3.;52761084]I will never take "it doesn't affect the game/it's just cosmetics" for an excuse. Microtransactions intrinsically affect the game, culturally if not technically. Sometimes the price isn't that high and sometimes the price is creating an economy that generates millions, if not billions, of dollars for the company running the show concealed by hints of player participation but barely giving players anything in return. Can you say that CS:GO skins affect the gameplay? No but you'd be lying to yourself if it didn't create an insane culture around a slot machine. There's entire YouTube channels dedicated to wasting hundreds of dollars opening these boxes to overreact when they strike a jackpot, said YouTube channels are often watched by kids, which grooms them for a gambling addiction. I'm seriously surprised that no governments have said their piece about this. You'd think the EU would rip publishers into chunky salsa over unregulated kids gambling.[/QUOTE] Opening lootboxes is not considered gambling because of the [B]guaranteed[/B] item drop. In the video it is compared to collectible card games and that has never come under fire for this sort of thing. The actual gambling websites should be addressed for sure though however these are not run by any legitimate publishers/developers of games. I personally don't care for microtransactions as long they are cosmetic, preferable I'd like a way to get cosmetic drops regardless but it all depends on the price of the game. A 60 euro game, a full priced AAA game, should NOT have microtransactions even more when it is a singleplayer game. And even then, only cosmetic microtransactions are those that I'd accept.

Angry Joe just put up a video with a bit more detail on Battlefront II. [video] [url]https://youtu.be/ne4CnyNW9O4[/url] [/video]

[QUOTE=ironman17;52760400]It's times like this when legislation starts sounding like a good idea. I've heard some people saying that legislation is the last thing we want to happen, but with shit like this flying around it smells like it's time to start laying down some ground rules.[/QUOTE] If it'll also abolish in-app purchases for smartphones and tablets, then I'm all in.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;52760841]it's not a defeatist attitude, the only way to make a company listen is to not buy their shit gamers are like, the most easily manipulated group of media consumers, you can get them to buy fuckin anything and its depressing[/QUOTE] the best part about not buying a game is that you really aren't missing out on much because there are many other games you could instead get buy better games and bad games won't be an issue its literally as simple as can be.

I can live with loot boxes if its cosmetic I can live with buying upgrades for ingame currency I can even live with buying upgrades for ingame currency and letting players unlock them with real money if its not too grindy making players unlock shit through RNG is completely bullshit though and I really hope western governments crack down on it harder, though companies will just do what blizzard do and instead of selling loot boxes, sell a minuscule amount of in game currency and give loot boxes as a "free gift" on top

Microtransaction and I go way back. My disgust for them was founded more than a decade ago and since then I’ve been observing and studying them so I avoid that pit at all cost, as those bastards are constantly evolving. Alas, this is the hot topic of the month I figure I’m going to put more of my thoughts and opinions on it. Front and foremost, I’d like to clarify that I am fighting two fronts: Microtransactions and Lootboxes (hereinafter referred to as “Chests”). Although both systems work in conjunction to uphold the controversy, one is much more predatory in nature than the other. Two major factors contributing the current outcry: The assimilation of premium and freemium business model; and the ethnicity of exploiting gambling habits. I’ll start with gambling. I’m not repeating points so I advise listening to Totalbisbuit’s anecdote and statements @ 29:00. The feedback loop of Chests IS gambling, microtransaction allows the publishers to benefit from SAID gambling. I’m going to use the word loosely, as elements of gambling has been used in game design throughout history. Totalbiscuit briefed on it @ 33:20, and I might add on that the age-old arguement video game addiction is in part very similar to gambling addiction, which admittedly is less of an ‘addiction’, but more of ‘compulsive behavior’. Going back, the fight against Chests for its compulsive triggers is noble, but games have been doing to for a long time. I guess when real money is concerned, the devil is better exposed. Nonetheless I figure that this is great for awareness, so keep preaching. Now, people fear for the introduction of freemium concepts to premium would bring along all the negatives. Play devil’s advocate and imagine this statement: you are playing a freemium game but you pay 60 dollars admission price for the bump in quality. Committing to any f2p game isn’t cheap (time and/or money), as many gamers on that field could admit. This sounds fucking expensive; The worst of both worlds collides. Obviously, this is fucking bad and a protest is in order. However, in my opinion, not only this is a difficult fight, and that chances of completely repelling microtransactions are very low (Chests are going to stay, no doubt. Unless a governing body intervenes), I fear we might be too late. There is a widespread shift in gamer culture. The new generation grew up consuming free media, and the idea of “tipping for benefits” becomes more accepted. Money becomes a resource of dedication; pay2win now parallel to grind2win and practice2win; attention span is waning, instant gratification is up; prestige now inherited part of ‘fun’. These are the people who are now getting into the core game industry, and publishers are taking full advantage of that. The ‘old schools’ will bark, then they will phase out and replaced by the new generation. Shadow of War and Battlefront2 are only skirmishes, if we can't even win them, it will only worsen from there. Does this mean this war is lost before it begun? [B]Sort of.[/B] But silence isn’t the answer. What we are doing can still yield some results, it might delay the inevitable, it might hold back the severeness of the predatory techniques, it might pressure a few companies to withhold such practices. It will still mean something. But to those who still have an interest in indulging games with the highest production value, I suggest start being educated and identify the acceptable boundaries microtransactions (and Chests) bring to a game’s experience, instead of blindly shunning this one specific ‘system’. No one will miss us when we are gone. My oath against microtransaction left a mark on me, made me an outcast among my social circles, greatly diminished my local job opportunities, and now they are creeping into my favorite medium. "Indie" is my next heaven, but I’m running out of corners to hide. The last thing I would to do, is to underestimate the power of microtransactions.

[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;52761535] I can even live with buying upgrades for ingame currency and [B]letting players unlock them with real money if its not too grindy[/B][/QUOTE] That's what ruined GTA online

Fucking GTA Online holy shit, they locked all of the most annoying and brokenly overpowered items behind like a base fee of 8+ Million Dollars at the minimum, you have to have a bunker, upgraded, as well as a MOC Truck which needs multiple upgrades to function, [I]then[/I] unlock upgrades which take an obscene amount of time unless you spend a quarter of a million unlocking random useless shit before you get stuff like rockets for your Oppressor, a vehicle which may as well be impossible to hit with lockon weaponry. What else do you get; - Best weaponry in every single category save for pistols, including the highest DPS weapon in the game which has obscene accuracy and ammo conservation. - Explosive rounds for your sniper rifle which can two-shot basically every vehicle - Nearly impossible to kill APCs with weaponry which can obliterate any other player

[QUOTE=27X;52760677]And I should give a shit why? Neither of these games will receive a dime or time from me; whatever anyone else chooses to do isn't even my business, [B]much less concern.[/B][/QUOTE] This is where you're wrong and you [I]should[/I] be concerned. Because of things like people buying a game that they inherently know they are being sold laziness (no dedicated servers in CoD) it just proves to publishers that they can get away with this shit. This effects you. It isn't unreasonable to say that we're going to see an increase in games that you are paying full price for to also have pay2win elements and it no longer being restricted to cosmetics. To have this mentality of 'oh well whatever other people want to do doesn't effect me!!' is just dumb. Battlefront 2 is the PERFECT example of this

[QUOTE=kill3r;52761932]This is where you're wrong and you [I]should[/I] be concerned. Because of things like people buying a game that they inherently know they are being sold laziness (no dedicated servers in CoD) it just proves to publishers that they can get away with this shit. This effects you. It isn't unreasonable to say that we're going to see an increase in games that you are paying full price for to also have pay2win elements and it no longer being restricted to cosmetics. To have this mentality of 'oh well whatever other people want to do doesn't effect me!!' is just dumb. Battlefront 2 is the PERFECT example of this[/QUOTE] Whelp whenever you get that mind control helmet worked up, I'll change my mind (perhaps literally natch), but until then I'll change my mind alone other than venue posts like this because I have zero control over what other people choose to do. I'll say my piece as to why I made the decision I made, and that's where it ends. Anything else is none of my business. After you give people info, what they choose to do with it up to them.

[QUOTE=kill3r;52761932]This is where you're wrong and you [I]should[/I] be concerned. Because of things like people buying a game that they inherently know they are being sold laziness (no dedicated servers in CoD) it just proves to publishers that they can get away with this shit. This effects you. It isn't unreasonable to say that we're going to see an increase in games that you are paying full price for to also have pay2win elements and it no longer being restricted to cosmetics. To have this mentality of 'oh well whatever other people want to do doesn't effect me!!' is just dumb. Battlefront 2 is the PERFECT example of this[/QUOTE] Truth. As these practices become more and more commonplace, they may infect a franchise YOU love, a series of games YOU want to play. In a way, I feel like we need to become increasingly more hostile towards executives who push this shit. Not developers or PR managers, but the executives and shareholders that try and push this shit. THEY are the ones making it happen, THEY should be the ones feeling the heat, we need to drive them away with their tails between their legs. They need to feel like their double-dipping practices are going to get them in all kinds of trouble.

at least halo 5 had seperate modes. one with P2W that was casual. one with even starts and no RNG at all that was competitive (and some casual modes there too). if they can have seperate modes for each, cool, imo

[QUOTE=343N;52762411]at least halo 5 had seperate modes. one with P2W that was casual. one with even starts and no RNG at all that was competitive (and some casual modes there too). if they can have seperate modes for each, cool, imo[/QUOTE] Halo 5 didn't really feel P2W in Warzone though because people only cared about cosmetics from the loot box stuff. The modified weapons/vehicle cards almost felt like clutter to me. I ended up having probably at least 50+ of everything because you got them so easily. And the rarer weapons were basically never used because everyone was too afraid of dying and losing them.

I bought Overwatch and I haven't been unhappy with my purchase but still I don't think I'll be buying a game with microtransactions ever again, especially not loot boxes. It's getting out of hand.

I haven't been paying attention to Battlefront 2 cause I'm not really interested in it, but holy shit that's bad. The whole upgrade system looks like it was ripped straight out of a bad F2P game. Can't wait to see professional reviewers giving it 8/10 or better scores without even paying any attention to the issue.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/ri0f918.png[/img]

Post-launch added Cosmetics are fine, IMO. They change no gameplay, they bring in extra cash consistently to the devs (Or scummy publisher) and if they prevent DLC that splits the community with each release because they're now free i'm on board. But 144% increased damage, 60% longer durations, 70% cooldowns, 15% to 100% health recovered... No, fuck that. That's bullshit. Get out

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52760978]Well my small interest in the game is completely gone then. I hope this is not the future of the Battlefield Franchise either.[/QUOTE] This is the thing I was thinking about today that I haven't seen anyone else touch on. If this is successful for DICE then there is nothing stopping them from implementing it into Battlefield Two. On the other hand, if the microtransactions completely fail to create a solid revenue stream, they might drop the idea and go back to their "traditional" (eugh) season pass scheme.

[QUOTE=TheTalon;52768265]Post-launch added Cosmetics are fine, IMO. They change no gameplay, they bring in extra cash consistently to the devs (Or scummy publisher) and if they prevent DLC that splits the community with each release because they're now free i'm on board. But 144% increased damage, 60% longer durations, 70% cooldowns, 15% to 100% health recovered... No, fuck that. That's bullshit. Get out[/QUOTE] Titanfall 2's paid cosmetics is to this day for me the gold standard for post-launch monetization

World of Warcraft has also dialed this system up to 11. You can't directly buy power (through blizzard at least) but every aspect of the game has turned into an unlimited grind with artifact power being the main one. Then the rng legendary drop system (which is better than it used to be but if you're unlucky it could take 3 months of dedicated playing to get the right legendaries you need). And finally the worst part, titanforging, where every item that drops has it's own little slot machine roll where it can roll to a 5 item level higher version. And that was how it used to be until Legion where it can keep doing that roll and chain it. The chance gets exponentially lower but it gives that sort of lottery incentive to doing older outdated content because "what if" something titanforges 30-40 levels. Power scales exponentially with item level so it's a big deal.

[QUOTE=dark_vivec;52771053]World of Warcraft has also dialed this system up to 11. You can't directly buy power (through blizzard at least) but every aspect of the game has turned into an unlimited grind with artifact power being the main one. Then the rng legendary drop system (which is better than it used to be but if you're unlucky it could take 3 months of dedicated playing to get the right legendaries you need). And finally the worst part, titanforging, where every item that drops has it's own little slot machine roll where it can roll to a 5 item level higher version. And that was how it used to be until Legion where it can keep doing that roll and chain it. The chance gets exponentially lower but it gives that sort of lottery incentive to doing older outdated content because "what if" something titanforges 30-40 levels. Power scales exponentially with item level so it's a big deal.[/QUOTE] What does this have to do with microtransactions, loot box gambling, or blatant pay 2 win bullshit?