There Are Only 2 Genders | Change My Mind - Louder With Crowder - General

[QUOTE=Rusty100;52950872]I was thinking about why Tudd would keep posting his awful, hateful videos and other bullshits, when nobody tolerates it and just makes him more and more reviled in the community. But it occurred to me, with all those 'guides on how to not seem racist and trick people into joining our cause' things you see on fuckin, pol or the donald or whatever cesspools these people post on, ways to disguise your nefarious intent in an attempt to sway people, I bet you he is following some 'spread the word' rule where you just keep posting this bullshit everwhere you can in the hopes it becomes accepted. I bet there's some thread telling you to spread alt-right content everywhere you can and frame it as politely as you can, like it's some sort of reasonable video. Because that would explain so much of Tudd's behavior.[/QUOTE] That's [I]exactly[/I] what it is. The sooner we stop treating him like some funny meme that you're not supposed to take seriously, the sooner we cut off the poisonous vines that he's trying to constrict our community with. The mods like to shut down this kind of discussion about Tudd and maintain that he's just a silly guy with differing opinions, but I really hope that this thread (moreover, the more-obvious-than-usual hatred against genderqueer/transgender people he's expressed in here) serves as a wake-up call. The whole "differing opinion" bullshit stopped being true ages ago. He's clearly moved on from showing us an innocent right-leaning opinion for debating's sake to actually trying to infect people with bigotry and hate. His local meme status here has only empowered him, and I think (or at least I hope) it's finally reaching a boiling point.

[QUOTE=john711;52950874]Because science is fact based everything should be based on it, shouldn't it? Its how we learn and explain whats what. If you can't prove it, then does it really exist? There are people who spend lifetimes trying to prove things only to have it proven like decades after they're gone. Is this something that might follow that line? who knows. If you don't want Gender expression to be based on science, then how can you prove it to someone skeptical? Whats wrong with facts and data? I'm very cynical and don't take things at face value anymore and like to have things concrete, just for the sake of my sanity because the worlds ALWAYS been a crazy place.[/QUOTE] Let's try a thought experiment. Imagine that tomorrow a study came out that we knew to be 100% accurate showed that no one is born gay and that if you are gay then it's because you chose to be gay. Would then go on to say that being gay is illegitimate just because it's based on a choice rather than genetics?

So, roughly the "nature vs nurture" argument?

[QUOTE=john711;52950894]So, the "nature vs nurture" argument?[/QUOTE] Your argument is that for gender expression to be legitimate, it must have a scientific basis. I am extending your argument to sexuality. Why does it matter if the way a person expresses their sexuality or gender is based on science?

[QUOTE=cbb;52950510]Yes. It's just as disparaging as believing that black people are less than human. In some ways it might be even worse because it implies that non-cis people do not exist, that they are mentally unstable for identifying outside the norm.[/QUOTE] Its called being ignorant, not a bigot, you dingus.

[QUOTE=cbb;52950900]Your argument is that for gender expression to be legitimate, it must have a scientific basis. I am extending your argument to sexuality. Why does it matter if the way a person expresses their sexuality or gender is based on science?[/QUOTE] Why does it matter that you can prove something,anything, exists outside of a couple of individuals personal experiences?

[QUOTE=Crumpet;52950887]lol get to fuck, have you even read the bill? [URL="http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-16/royal-assent"]here you go[/URL] Find me the bit where it says you'll be locked up for using the wrong pronouns? It simply adds 'gender identity or expression' to the list of things Govt. agencies and businesses can't use to discriminate. Where is the part about compelled speech? Not to mention almost every single Canadian legal org says the hysteria is total bullshit, including the Canadian Bar Association. But of course these unqualified [I]rational freespeechers[/I] have got it figured out. It's a totalitarian ploy![/QUOTE] You know he won't reply to this. He never replies when there is clear evidence of him following another badly reseached opinion perpetuating his regressive bs.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52950758] why being transgender isn't a mental illness [/QUOTE] It is a mental disorder tho? I mean, its certainly not a mental disorder that hinders you (like autism, schizophrenia, Tourettes etc) but its certainly isnt normal behaviour of human's body and mind.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52950907]It is a mental disorder tho?[/QUOTE] Depends on who you ask it seems :/ I can look at what psychology books say, or I can look at what a trans person says and not get the same answer. Even knowing that what we know about it now isn't what was known 20 years and and things have and will continue to change as our understanding grows and become better documented, I move along and let both sides work it out the best they can to find an answer.

[QUOTE=john711;52950904]Why does it matter that you can prove something,anything, exists outside of a couple of individuals personal experiences?[/QUOTE] You're either intentionally avoiding the question because you don't have an answer or you don't understand the discussion. [QUOTE=CruelAddict;52950902]Its called being ignorant, not a bigot, you dingus.[/QUOTE] Normally I would agree but not in the context of OP's video.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52950907]It is a mental disorder tho?[/QUOTE] Gender dysphoria is a disorder, being transgender isn't. Gender dysphoria is treated through transitioning and presenting as their gender identity. By providing transgender people with the treatment they need and respecting them (calling them their preferred pronouns, treating them equally - you know, as people), gender dysphoria is reduced significantly and the problems associated with it as well. It's like arguing being gay is a mental disorder because it causes distress etc, when the distress is caused by rejection and non-acceptance in many cases. I'm still learning and questioning my own gender identity though so someone who is trans would be able to explain it a lot better. [quote]I mean, before you try and annihilate me[/quote] I'm not going to flame anyone who's asking an honest question. People like Crowder and the transphobic people on this site (they do exist) can go get fucked though since they won't listen and remain bigoted.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52950915]Gender dysphoria is a disorder, being transgender isn't. Gender dysphoria is treated through transitioning and presenting as their gender identity. By providing transgender people with the treatment they need and respecting them (calling them their preferred pronouns, treating them equally - you know, as people), gender dysphoria is reduced significantly and the problems associated with it as well. It's like arguing being gay is a mental disorder because it causes distress etc, when the distress is caused by rejection and non-acceptance in many cases. I'm still learning and questioning my own gender identity though so someone who is trans would be able to explain it a lot better.[/QUOTE] Yeah, thats what i meant.

[QUOTE=cbb;52950912]You're either intentionally avoiding the question because you don't have an answer or you don't understand the discussion. [/QUOTE] I gave you my answer. If you aren't happy with it, then you aren't happy with it but I did answer your question and certainly didn't avoid it. We aren't going to agree on this as you're stance and my stance are different, and thats fine. I'm not going to scream or mock you for not sharing my perspective :/

[QUOTE=john711;52950917]I gave you my answer. If you aren't happy with it, then you aren't happy with it but I did answer your question and certainly didn't avoid it.[/QUOTE] Could you please quote your answers to the following questions? 1. If being gay was a choice and not genetic, would you consider it illegitimate? 2. Why is gender identity or sexual preference only legitimate if it's based on science?

[QUOTE=BANNED USER;52950356]Crowder needs a content cop, I bet the dude has more dirt under his nails than Mitt Romney has binders full of women.[/QUOTE] I don't think Idubbbz would be the kind of person to make a content cop focused on political shit and I don't think he even cares about someone like Crowder

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52950907]It is a mental disorder tho? I mean, its certainly not a mental disorder that hinders you (like autism, schizophrenia, Tourettes etc) but its certainly isnt normal behaviour of human's body and mind.[/QUOTE] This is incidental and just talking in general, I'm not directing this at CruelAddict, but I have this automatic knee-jerk revulsion and disgust towards people saying that because I can't unassociate it with piece of shit bigots saying it and then going "therefore this justifies me treating transgender people as subhuman" like that's a reasonable leap of logic. Liberal use of the word "degenerate" is usually included in this because you gotta get that pseudo-intellectualism in there while you're at it. I can't understand why it's so important for people to not just say "okay" and move on with their lives instead of taking it upon themselves to go out of their way to try to hate and ruin other people's lives over something that's so utterly trivial in how it personally affects them.

[QUOTE=DarklytheGreat;52950782]you voted for trump, a man who literally wants to shut down media corporations for not reporting positively about him, and you criticize other people for being pro authoritarianism/totalitarianism aight[/QUOTE] We've known for ages that Tudd is about as disingenuous as his kind comes, not sure why anyone's surprised at this point.

We could be talking about like global warming or corrpution in our goverments, you know something that can or rather will effect all our lifes, unlike like this unimportant topic. Am no trans so i do not understand what they are going through so I may mot be fair now. But I do belive there are some facts, that no matter how much I or you dont like it, just got to learn to live with it, and not force other to adapt to your dearest illusion just to make you alittle more comfortable.

[QUOTE=Shakma;52951005] Am no trans so i do not understand what they are going through [/QUOTE] Really? You seem so knowledgeable and caring!

a) People can focus on more than one issue at a time b) Allowing people to be their gender identity and accepting them for that isn't unimportant. And don't hide behind this "there are some facts" stuff, say what you actually want to say. Trans people do learn to live with the shit they go through. They do it everyday. We can, at the very least, respect and help them.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52950915]Gender dysphoria is a disorder, being transgender isn't. Gender dysphoria is treated through transitioning and presenting as their gender identity. By providing transgender people with the treatment they need and respecting them (calling them their preferred pronouns, treating them equally - you know, as people), gender dysphoria is reduced significantly and the problems associated with it as well. It's like arguing being gay is a mental disorder because it causes distress etc, when the distress is caused by rejection and non-acceptance in many cases. I'm still learning and questioning my own gender identity though so someone who is trans would be able to explain it a lot better.[/QUOTE] I'm not trans but I can elaborate on the medical side of things. Gender Dysphoria is classified under the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Medical Disorders (DSM5) as a disorder characterised by the discontent experienced by any persons resulting from gender identity issues. It was reclassified from Gender Identity Disorder, which appeared in previous editions of the DSM. Gender Identity Disorder referred to the actual condition of experiencing oneself as a gender distinct from ones birth sex, while Gender Dysphoria refers specifically to the stress felt due to a disconnect between ones birth sex and perceived gender identity. To be diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria, a person must have experienced at least a six month period of continous anxiety, which must meet at least two of a select list of strict criteria. There are different critereon for adults and children, with consideration for the fact that children may be less aware or less able to express knowledge about their own experiences. For Adults and Teenagers: [url]https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/gender-dysphoria-dsm--5-302.85-(f64.9)[/url] [QUOTE]DSM-5 states that the initial condition for the identification of gender dysphoria in both adults and teenagers is a noticeable incongruence between the gender the patient believes they are, and what society perceives them to be. This disparity should be ongoing for at least 6 months and should consist of 2 or more of the subsequent criteria (American Psychiatric Association, 2013): -Noticeable incongruence between the gender that the patient sees themselves are, and what their classified gender assignment -An intense need to do away with his or her primary or secondary sex features (or, in the case of young teenagers, to avert the maturity of the likely secondary features) -An intense desire to have the primary or secondary sex features of the other gender -A deep desire to transform into another gender -A profound need for society to treat them as another gender -A powerful assurance of having the characteristic feelings and responses of the other gender -The second necessity is that the condition should be connected with clinically important distress, or affects the individual significantly socially, at work, and in other import areas of life.[/QUOTE] For Children: [url]http://thriveworks.com/blog/gender-dysphoria-children/[/url] [QUOTE]The DSM-5 has certain criteria for Gender Dysphoria in children. The child will have a significant incompatibility with the gender he identifies with and the gender he was born with, and it lasts a minimum of six months. When a child exhibits a minimum of six of the criteria below, which must include the first item, he is diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria. -An intense want to be the opposite gender or persistence that he is the opposite gender (or a different gender other than the one he was born as). -Boys who were born as males have a prevalence toward cross-dressing or wearing clothing that is seemingly more feminine. Girls who were born as females prefer dressing in what would be considered men’s clothing and are powerfully opposed to dressing in regular female apparel. -When it comes to creative play or making up games, the child has the desire to be in the other gender’s role. -The child would rather play with the toys or be included in the activities that are usually deemed appropriate for the opposite sex. -He chooses to play with children of the opposite sex. -Boys will refuse to play with toys that are considered those that are usual for boys. Girls will rebuff games and toys that are generally meant for females. -The child will have an intense dismay with the sexual parts of his body. -He wants the primary/secondary sex features that are equal to the experienced gender. -The child has extreme anxiety and stress, as well as problems with functioning in social circles, school and other situations.[/QUOTE] Treatment ranges from psychotherapy, encouraging and aiding the patient to adapt to their gender identity resulting in lifestyle changes; to hormone replace therapy (HRT) and eventually surgerical procedures.

For the longest time, I thought that your junk defines your biological sex, while gender defines how you act independent of biology. Am I totally wrong now then? I solemnly hope I do not sound bigoted, I am honestly curious.

[QUOTE=Nitro836;52951042]For the longest time, I thought that your junk defines your biological sex, while gender defines how you act independent of biology. Am I totally wrong now then? I solemnly hope I do not sound bigoted, I am honestly curious.[/QUOTE] You're right about your genitals determining your sex at birth and you're sort of right about how you act determining your gender but it would be more accurate to say that how you feel determines your gender since people have differing opinions on how genders act.

[QUOTE=Nitro836;52951042]For the longest time, I thought that your junk defines your biological sex, while gender defines how you act independent of biology. Am I totally wrong now then? I solemnly hope I do not sound bigoted, I am honestly curious.[/QUOTE] From my understanding, yea that's pretty much it. Sex is what you're born as, i.e. physical primary sexual characteristics (assuming pre-SRS operation), and gender identity is how the brain perceives itself. More detail in my previous post: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1587897&p=52951019&viewfull=1#post52951019[/url] [QUOTE=Zyler;52951019][QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52950915]Gender dysphoria is a disorder, being transgender isn't. Gender dysphoria is treated through transitioning and presenting as their gender identity. By providing transgender people with the treatment they need and respecting them (calling them their preferred pronouns, treating them equally - you know, as people), gender dysphoria is reduced significantly and the problems associated with it as well. It's like arguing being gay is a mental disorder because it causes distress etc, when the distress is caused by rejection and non-acceptance in many cases. I'm still learning and questioning my own gender identity though so someone who is trans would be able to explain it a lot better.[/QUOTE] I'm not trans but I can elaborate on the medical side of things. Gender Dysphoria is classified under the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Medical Disorders (DSM5) as a disorder characterised by the discontent experienced by any persons resulting from gender identity issues. It was reclassified from Gender Identity Disorder, which appeared in previous editions of the DSM. Gender Identity Disorder referred to the actual condition of experiencing oneself as a gender distinct from ones birth sex, while Gender Dysphoria refers specifically to the stress felt due to a disconnect between ones birth sex and perceived gender identity. To be diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria, a person must have experienced at least a six month period of continous anxiety, which must meet at least two of a select list of strict criteria. There are different critereon for adults and children, with consideration for the fact that children may be less aware or less able to express knowledge about their own experiences. For Adults and Teenagers: [url]https://www.theravive.com/therapedia/gender-dysphoria-dsm--5-302.85-(f64.9)[/url] [QUOTE]DSM-5 states that the initial condition for the identification of gender dysphoria in both adults and teenagers is a noticeable incongruence between the gender the patient believes they are, and what society perceives them to be. This disparity should be ongoing for at least 6 months and should consist of 2 or more of the subsequent criteria (American Psychiatric Association, 2013): -Noticeable incongruence between the gender that the patient sees themselves are, and what their classified gender assignment -An intense need to do away with his or her primary or secondary sex features (or, in the case of young teenagers, to avert the maturity of the likely secondary features) -An intense desire to have the primary or secondary sex features of the other gender -A deep desire to transform into another gender -A profound need for society to treat them as another gender -A powerful assurance of having the characteristic feelings and responses of the other gender -The second necessity is that the condition should be connected with clinically important distress, or affects the individual significantly socially, at work, and in other import areas of life.[/QUOTE] For Children: [url]http://thriveworks.com/blog/gender-dysphoria-children/[/url] [QUOTE]The DSM-5 has certain criteria for Gender Dysphoria in children. The child will have a significant incompatibility with the gender he identifies with and the gender he was born with, and it lasts a minimum of six months. When a child exhibits a minimum of six of the criteria below, which must include the first item, he is diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria. -An intense want to be the opposite gender or persistence that he is the opposite gender (or a different gender other than the one he was born as). -Boys who were born as males have a prevalence toward cross-dressing or wearing clothing that is seemingly more feminine. Girls who were born as females prefer dressing in what would be considered men’s clothing and are powerfully opposed to dressing in regular female apparel. -When it comes to creative play or making up games, the child has the desire to be in the other gender’s role. -The child would rather play with the toys or be included in the activities that are usually deemed appropriate for the opposite sex. -He chooses to play with children of the opposite sex. -Boys will refuse to play with toys that are considered those that are usual for boys. Girls will rebuff games and toys that are generally meant for females. -The child will have an intense dismay with the sexual parts of his body. -He wants the primary/secondary sex features that are equal to the experienced gender. -The child has extreme anxiety and stress, as well as problems with functioning in social circles, school and other situations.[/QUOTE] Treatment ranges from psychotherapy, encouraging and aiding the patient to adapt to their gender identity resulting in lifestyle changes; to hormone replace therapy (HRT) and eventually surgerical procedures.[/QUOTE] and here: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1585854&p=52894168&viewfull=1#post52894168[/url] [QUOTE=Zyler;52894168][QUOTE=Boss;52894087]Is it a chemical imbalance in the brain that causes one to feel the need to want to become the other gender / alternate life form? What I'm saying is can this chemical be artificially replaced to "balance" the person out to their original gender? I literally have never discussed transgenders before so actually wonder if the above is a bit of a shit view point? It's one I've thought of myself after seeing the rise of transgender topics appearing in the media / news outlets.[/QUOTE] During pre-natal (in the womb) development all human fetuses start as female, whether or not the fetus further develops male morphology or retains female morphology depends on whether it undergoes a set of two hormonal injections. One of the hormonal injections goes into the body of the developing fetus and begins the process of developing the male bodily morphology while the other goes into the brain and develops the male neural morphology. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prenatal_hormones_and_sexual_orientation[/url] [QUOTE]Fetal gonads develop primarily based on the presence or absence of androgen hormones, mainly testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and androstenedione; production of testosterone and conversion into dihydrotestosterone during weeks 6 to 12 of pregnancy are key factors in the production of a male fetus' penis, scrotum and prostate.[4] In a female, on the other hand, absence of these levels of androgens results in development of typically female genitals.[4] Following this, sexual differentiation of the brain occurs; sex hormones exert organizational effects on the brain that will be activated in puberty.[4] As a result of these two processes occurring separately, the degree of genital masculinization does not necessarily relate to the masculinization of the brain.[1]:24[4][/QUOTE] Because these hormonal injections are two separate processes, one for the body and one for the brain, there is regularly a difference between the degree to which the hormones affect both aspects of the developing fetus. These changes to the brain which occur during pre-natal development become activated after puberty begins around the age of 8 years old, during which another set of brain-effecting hormones is released involving two more injections to the brain and the body respectively. In fact, it could be argued that most individuals do not demonstrate entirely consistent masculine or feminine brain morphology in relation to their bodies. In other words, most human beings do not possess entirely male or female bodily and neural characteristics. However, it is only in individuals who suffer from gender dysphoria that the difference is extreme enough to warrant treatment. Even in these cases social changes (such as wearing clothing of the opposite morphological characterisation) can be sufficient. Hormonal treatments are usually the go-to approach for more extensive cases. Actual surgery is only used in the most rare and extreme cases where it is demonstrated to a panel of medical professionals that the individual would otherwise have sufficiently low quality of life to warrant it. Since gender dysphoria is typified by a incorrect relationship between the pre-natal hormonal injections in the brain in relation to that in the body, there is an 'opposite' to it known as transsexualism (sometimes referred to as intersex), which is wherein the relationship is versed, i.e. the body is incorrect aligned to the brain. This is possible because the first hormonal injection into the body and the second injection into the brain occur at slightly different times. Rather than in gender dysphoria, wherein the brain's 'blueprint' of the body is inaproprially aligned, in transsexualism some physical characteristics of the body are misaligned to the brain, this can result in a variety of effects such as female sexual characteristics with an XY chromosome or even genital deformaties such as a shortened vaginal canal or a clitoris that is unusually enlarged into a 'micropenis'.[/QUOTE] And don't worry so much about sounding bigoted, people probably won't judge you just for asking questions unless you are being deliberately insulting/dickish.

[QUOTE=Nitro836;52951042]For the longest time, I thought that your junk defines your biological sex, while gender defines how you act independent of biology. Am I totally wrong now then? I solemnly hope I do not sound bigoted, I am honestly curious.[/QUOTE] Biological sex is exactly that. Human sex is binary. Either you are born with a male sex organ(cock-and-balls) or a female sex organ(vagina and its cohorts). Barring any abnormality, that's what everyone(human at birth) will have. Gender is usually implied, however, it is believed to be affected by external actors as well as internal(personal experiences, trauma, psychological abnormalities, etc.)

[QUOTE=cbb;52951051]You're right about your genitals determining your sex at birth and you're sort of right about how you act determining your gender but it would be more accurate to say that how you feel determines your gender [b]since people have differing opinions on how genders act.[/b][/QUOTE] And this is where concepts like nonbinary or gender fluid come from. Because we ('we' meaning doctors/clinicians) don't know how much of gendered behaviour is biological or socially driven. The difference between a transgendered person and these other categories is based around the transgendered person experiencing gender dysphoria (significant stress due to a disconnect between the brain's perceived gender identity and the physical sex of the body) as opposed to simply atypical gender expression (wearing the clothes of the opposite gender, having hair styled like that of the opposite gender, etc.). An individual with gender dysphoria may show no outward signs of belonging to the opposite gender aside from extreme discomfort with their own body prior to transitioning, while these other categories are generally characterised by atypical gendered behaviour. The "there are 200 genders" thing is a consequence of the fact that there is no set categorization of these many different gendered behaviours into separate types of being, so people have made up their own categories to describe their own personal views of these behaviours as distinct from a binary system. It is somewhat correct to say that there are only two genders, in so far as there is a wide range of possible behaviours and that most people with these behaviours fit into one of two possible broad trends. It's just that it doesn't preclude mixing and matching from either broad category- and to a certain extent no person is entirely male/masculine or female/feminine in their behaviour.

[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52950561]Simply put, "male" and "female" in the context of gender are merely a set of mostly arbitrary behaviors and practices. They often serve cultural and societal functions, but in a culture where individuality is heavily valued, like the USA, and where prior gender roles are no longer central to societal function like they might have been in farming communities hundreds of years ago, binary gender is just an arbitrary vestige of a prior time, no more or less valid than any other gender structure. And of course other cultures have wildly different gender structures, such as other cultures which feature a third gender.[/QUOTE] My problem is that when you base gender on behaviors and practices you're still implying that 'men do this' and 'women do that'. I think you can be a male and what behaviors and practices you have don't change that. Gender fluidity just looks like different lifestyles to me.

[QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52951015]a) People can focus on more than one issue at a time b) Allowing people to be their gender identity and accepting them for that isn't unimportant. And don't hide behind this "there are some facts" stuff, say what you actually want to say. Trans people do learn to live with the shit they go through. They do it everyday. We can, at the very least, respect and help them.[/QUOTE] I treat them like any other people, don't take me wrong I got nothing against them and bully/mistreat them is wrong. I just fail to see how having unlimited gender will change or improve anything. And "there are some facts" is true, like I wish I could fly like birds, having super powers or be more handsome. Now this is some poorly and extreme wishes and should not be compared with wanting to change sex/gender, but the point still stands in my opinion. For me at least, I would rather deal with living with a cold hard truth, then some made up paradise lie.

[QUOTE=Kiwi;52950477]I can appreciate the question and the debate but something that really irks me is the amount of interruptions and the assertive nature that Crowder does. I would not want to debate with that person at all.[/QUOTE] Isn't being assertive a good thing? I think you might be confusing being straightforward with being a pompous dick.

My take on the '200 genders' idea: So what? Imagine if you had to type a paragraph into google every time you wanted to find a similar perspective. These terms facilitate communication and have literally zero downside to others except the salt they generate in themselves because it's different.