Ben Affleck and Bill Maher HEATED Islam / Islamophobia Debate
82 replies, posted
[QUOTE=TAU!;46166971]You can keep posting links like this. It still doesn't take away from the fact that people from numerous religions and cultures have also committed crimes in the name of their religion or culture. There are also those in different cultures, who are in different religious groups, who also have negative opinions about others when it comes to their beliefs, political affiliations, opinions on gender and sexual orientation, and other hot topics. Anyone can be any kind of person, no matter what doctrine they follow.[/QUOTE]
BESIDES the crusades (900 years ago)
Find me ANYTHING that states ANY religion that wants 60% of homosexuals punished? (for being homosexual)
Find me any religion (besides muslims) where 25% of them support violence against civilians.
lets see those links, those articles.
please stop being racist
Like its been said before, what makes Ben Affleck more qualified than any other Joe Schmo to discuss these issues. I understand Sam Harris, he is educated on such matters, and that is his primary area of expertise.
Now I never said Ben Affleck can't have his own interests in politics and so on, what I mean is why is he on national television, together with people who actually did their re-search? I understand he is a celebrity and so on but I don't think his accomplishments as an actor gives him any such credibility.
[QUOTE=Dewm;46166973]Never said they are all hateful. BUT people like you who want to pretend that its just some small fringe percentage of them are anti woman, anti homosexual, and violent.. its just a fallacy. You can say another 15 times that I'm troll posting" But all I am doing is dealing with facts.. and the best you can come up with is: I'm Xenophobic?
And did I learn from the crusades? LOL you mean something that happened NINE HUNDRED YEARS AGO?!!?!
That like saying, we should kill everyone that has Ebola because, didn't you learn from the black plague?!?!
Things have changed in the last 900 years.[/QUOTE]
The crusades helped pave the way for major confrontations between people of different abrahamic religions, and still has its influence today. Every conflict between Christians, Muslims, Jewish people have been influenced since then. Don't even bring ebola victims into this, because I'm not even saying we should killing anyone. Nor did I claim that muslims who have radical beliefs were a part of some microscopic fringe group. Also, a minority can be any size. Also, how many Christians have killed people because of those same anti-woman, anti-homosexuals, anti-ANYTHING-not-Christian ideals?
Ben Affleck seemed really out of place, he kept getting talked over, and whenever he wanted to put a point over you could see him mulling it over, clearly not listening to anything the opposition was saying OR the two people with him. When he was done with his hard thought out answer, he always tried shouting over the others. He looked too stressed out about the whole discussion, but also seemed like he hadn't done his research. He felt like a third leg that really wasn't of much use here.
[QUOTE=mikeyt493;46166986]my point was he has fans so he brings in viewers AND he clearly has some knowledge of current events. (also he's like TOTALLY revitalised his career in the last 8 or so years he has directed 3 very acclaimed films, 2 of which he starred in, one of them a Best Picture winner, and has starred in well recieved films including right now Gone Girl which is being acclaimed as one of the best film of 2014 so yea)
He has fans because he's an actor/director. Yes. That means he has people interested in what he has to say. Are you not allowed to be interested in cinema and politics? (well according to you, you can only know about literally 1 thing so idk if that was a good question lol)
idk who Philip DeFranco is but if he is famous then he has a chance of being on the show. That's so dumb??? There are MILLIONS of celebrities in the world. he can't get them all on his show. Obviously. Also no one was talking about Ben Affleck's looks, way to attack me for an argument I didn't even make.
I also never ONCE said fame=knowledge. I said he is smart AND famous. That's a good mix for a talk show that invites celebrities on. he can bring in an audience and have good debate.
also im not even American so I cannot possibly be an issue with America lmao[/QUOTE]
Thats great that he's revitalised his career, thats great, it really is. But saying that because he's directed a few films and acted in some big blockbusters means that people want to hear what he said, is a long stretch and a bit of a fallacy.
Directors dont' write the script and/or story, they [U]direct[/U] the film. And acting, they have lines hand fed to them.
So, acting and directing does NOT = people wanting to hear what you say.
Phillip DeFranco is a youtube star that has several million subscribers.
And so far the only argument that I've heard for WHY affleck should be on the show, is the fact that he's famous from acting.
And you said he's smart, thats a matter of opinion, does he stay current on day to day topics? reading lots every day? you dont' know.
Does he have a really high IQ? you don't know
Why is he smart? because his views align with yours?
[editline]6th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=TAU!;46167023]The crusades helped pave the way for major confrontations between people of different abrahamic religions, and still has its influence today. Every conflict between Christians, Muslims, Jewish people have been influenced since then. Don't even bring ebola victims into this, because I'm not even saying we should killing anyone. Nor did I claim that muslims who have radical beliefs were a part of some microscopic fringe group. Also, a minority can be any size. Also, how many Christians have killed people because of those same anti-woman, anti-homosexuals, anti-ANYTHING-not-Christian ideals?[/QUOTE]
So I ask for facts and proof, and you repeat your original argument.
I don't know of any percentage of Christians that have killed people because they were woman or homosexuals..
Sure you'll probably find 1 or 2 cases.. but find me a PERCENTAGE.
If you can find a poll or article (from a real source) that states 1% of Christians think you should be punished for being gay. Then I will admit i'm wrong. and shut up.
facts man.. USE THEM.
[editline]6th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Buck.;46167021]Like its been said before, what makes Ben Affleck more qualified than any other Joe Schmo to discuss these issues. I understand Sam Harris, he is educated on such matters, and that is his primary area of expertise.
Now I never said Ben Affleck can't have his own interests in politics and so on, what I mean is why is he on national television, together with people who actually did their re-search? I understand he is a celebrity and so on but I don't think his accomplishments as an actor gives him any such credibility.[/QUOTE]
My point exactly. But way better worded then these fat fingers can do..
[QUOTE=TAU!;46166940]Are you going to act like Islam is full of nothing but hateful, murderous monsters? See, you're the problem with this nation. You fuel xenophobia and indulge in it. Have you forgotten how many Muslim or even vaguely Arab/middle-eastern looking people have been killed out of retaliation for 9/11? In the US alone, mind you. Simply because they were assumed to be arabic? Or were wearing a turban? Did you not learn about the crusades? Do you know what the reconquista is? Do you also understand that there are people who claim to represent a demographic and only commit actions that sully the name of said demographic?
Oh wait, you're just trolling. Nevermind.[/QUOTE]
There were atrocities committed on both sides during the middle ages and into the late 1600s to early 1700s. The reconquista was just that, taking back of rightful spanish land.
[quote] that there are people who claim to represent a demographic and only commit actions that sully the name of said demographic?[/quote]
But the difference is, none of the islamic terrorist attacks were done by random people who pretended to be muslim. These people do this because they were raised in a setting where doing these evil acts were ok, which is represented in the polls. Again, if you would look at the polls maybe you would understand that it is not a small group of people trying to ruin the reputation of islam.
[QUOTE=mikeyt493;46167010]please stop being racist[/QUOTE]
I don't know but when I see videos like this it makes me think:
[video=youtube;tpeIS25jhK4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpeIS25jhK4[/video]
[QUOTE=toaster468;46167173]There were atrocities committed on both sides during the middle ages and into the late 1600s to early 1700s. The reconquista was just that, taking back of rightful spanish land.
But the difference is, none of the islamic terrorist attacks were done by random people who pretended to be muslim. These people do this because they were raised in a setting where doing these evil acts were ok, which is represented in the polls. A[B]gain, if you would look at the polls maybe you would understand that it is not a small group of people trying to ruin the reputation of islam.[/B][/QUOTE]
Mahers point exactly, sure every group has crazies (take a look at West Boro Babtist) But I can't think of any other religion (in the last 200 years) EXCEPT Muslims, that have high percentages like that.
%61 of British muslims?!? thats Britain, its not like its Iran, imagine the percentages down in those countries.
And even with the Crusades, sure they said it was "for god" but it wasn't backed by Biblical text (at least that I know of)
Where as the Koran has directions to "kill infidels" and "non-believers"
So yeah, I actually disagree with Bill Maher on 90% of what he says, he's a devout liberal.. but on this muslim thing, I agree 100% with him.
Just last night I was reading this article amount ISIS members that kidnap woman and young girls, rape them and then sell them in a Syrian market for as little as $10.00.
Or offer them to their fighters as "rewards"
And yes ISIS is a small percentage of muslims. But..
[B]Informal poll of Saudis in August 2014 shows 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."[/B]
[url]http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/[/url]
This is a much bigger problem than a couple hundred people here and there.
[QUOTE=toaster468;46167173]There were atrocities committed on both sides during the middle ages and into the late 1600s to early 1700s. The reconquista was just that, taking back of rightful spanish land.
But the difference is, none of the islamic terrorist attacks were done by random people who pretended to be muslim. These people do this because they were raised in a setting where doing these evil acts were ok, which is represented in the polls. Again, if you would look at the polls maybe you would understand that it is not a small group of people trying to ruin the reputation of islam.[/QUOTE]
The reconquista also involved forcibly converting non-Christians (the Spanish Inquisition wasn't a jolly time, either), exiling them, or killing them. Also, I never said those people were pretenders, but I'll rephrase my statement better: there are those that put themselves in the spotlight, letting the whole world know they're representative of a religion as a whole, and only commit atrocities, which then people look to in order to slander said group (I am in no way supportive of the people committing atrocities, mind you, what they've done is wrong). Islamic extremists, for example, because there are tons of extremist muslim groups out there going around shooting and killing people, raping women, killing children, etc. Unfortunately, there are parts of the middle-east that are like fiery pits and more radical and wholly disgusting ideals are passed around and normalized, and this has been the case for a long time. But not every horrible person from the mid-east acts on their beliefs, even if acting on those beliefs is more common over there. Again, let me be clear, I do not believe that these beliefs are okay, whether someone acts on them or not.
I [b]never[/b] made the claim that the people making Islam look bad were some little group. I never ever even stated that, nor did I claim that Muslims have never done anything wrong. Let me be perfectly clear, I do not view muslims as some sort of untouchable group of angels that just so happen to have a few bad eggs among their members. Every major religion has had people done horrible things in the name of their religion and beliefs.
[QUOTE=TAU!;46167315]The reconquista also involved forcibly converting non-Christians (the Spanish Inquisition wasn't a jolly time, either), exiling them, or killing them. Also, I never said those people were pretenders, but I'll rephrase my statement better: [B]there are those that put themselves in the spotlight, letting the whole world know they're representative of a religion as a whole, and only commit atrocities, which then people look to in order to slander said group (I am in no way supportive of the people committing atrocities, mind you, what they've done is wrong). Islamic extremists, for example, because there are tons of extremist muslim groups out there going around shooting and killing people, raping women, killing children, etc. Unfortunately, there are parts of the middle-east that are like fiery pits and more radical and wholly disgusting ideals are passed around and normalized, and this has been the case for a long time. But not every horrible person from the mid-east acts on their beliefs, even if acting on those beliefs is more common over there. [U]There is a big gap between having negative and bigoted beliefs, and acting on those beliefs.[/U][/B]
I [b]never[/b] made the claim that the people making Islam look bad were some little group. I never ever even stated that, nor did I claim that Muslims have never done anything wrong. Let me be perfectly clear, I do not view muslims as some sort of untouchable group of angels that just so happen to have a few bad eggs among their members. Every major religion has had people done horrible things in the name of their religion and beliefs.[/QUOTE]
Just so I understand what you are saying...
You are saying: There are Muslims that rape children and thats bad,
but then there are muslims that BELIEVE raping a child is fine...but since they don't act on those beliefs, its nothing to worry about?
LIke seriously.. for 100%, did I understand that post correctly?
[QUOTE=Dewm;46167368]Just so I understand what you are saying...
You are saying: There are Muslims that rape children and thats bad,
but then there are muslims that BELIEVE raping a child is fine...but since they don't act on those beliefs, its nothing to worry about?
LIke seriously.. for 100%, did I understand that post correctly?[/QUOTE]
I never said that belief was okay whether they're acting on it or not. But you can believe that I did anyway.
[QUOTE=TAU!;46167397]I never said that belief was okay whether they're acting on it or not. But you can believe that I did anyway.[/QUOTE]
Well I was supprised, which is why I double checked.
So what did this statement mean?
[quote]There is a big gap between having negative and bigoted beliefs, and acting on those beliefs.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Dewm;46167401]Well I was supprised, which is why I double checked.
So what did this statement mean?[/QUOTE]
I was going to go on to say that there are plenty of Christians who also hold twisted beliefs in their hearts (that gays and bisexuals should be killed, that non-whites should be slaves or to treat them as lesser beings), but they do not act on them. Just because it's more prevalent with muslims doesn't make them into bigger monsters than anyone else, especially when the spotlight is on them for the most part.
[QUOTE=Killer900;46166515]Is he not allowed to talk about those topics just because he's an actor? Actors are people too you know.[/QUOTE]
Tom Cruise is people? Really? The man hasn't aged at all, and if you've seen a photo of him as a child you can plainly see that he has some sort of morphological power to do what he did with his teeth
[QUOTE=TAU!;46167429][B]I was going to go on to say that there are plenty of Christians who also hold twisted beliefs in their hearts (that gays and bisexuals should be killed, that non-whites should be slaves or to treat them as lesser beings)[/B], but they do not act on them. Just because it's more prevalent with muslims doesn't make them into bigger monsters than anyone else, especially when the spotlight is on them for the most part.[/QUOTE]
I'm not familiar with ANY Christians that think gays should be killed. And I know quite a few of them. Besides maybe a church here or there (I'm look at you Westboro) show me some numbers.
A poll maybe? 0.5% of christians think gays should be kill etc..
something. You can't just say that without facts and/or proof.
Let me take this a step further. Because this is actually pissing me off, you cant just fucking make a claim like that and not back it up. there is [U]NO[/U] percentage of christians that believe a child should be able to get raped.
That is just a flat out lie, I am calling you a liar until you prove otherwise.
Pulling a statement out of your ass like that, you should be ashamed.
[QUOTE=Buck.;46167203]I don't know but when I see videos like this it makes me think:
[video=youtube;tpeIS25jhK4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpeIS25jhK4[/video][/QUOTE]
It's funny how this guy is painting Shia's to be radicals, but Sunnis are the "normal" muslims.
[QUOTE=mikeyt493;46167010]please stop being racist[/QUOTE]
Muslim is a race now?
[QUOTE=Dewm;46167486]I'm not familiar with ANY Christians that think gays should be killed. And I know quite a few of them. Besides maybe a church here or there (I'm look at you Westboro) show me some numbers.
A poll maybe? 0.5% of christians think gays should be kill etc..
something. You can't just say that without facts and/or proof.
Let me take this a step further. Because this is actually pissing me off, you cant just fucking make a claim like that and not back it up. there is [U]NO[/U] percentage of christians that believe a child should be able to get raped.
That is just a flat out lie, I am calling you a liar until you prove otherwise.
Pulling a statement out of your ass like that, you should be ashamed.[/QUOTE]
Wait, wait, I should be ashamed of myself, but at the same time you're only using percentages and polls to further your prejudice against muslims? Besides, I know my fair share of christians, anyone does really. I know my fair share of christians who have warped views on gender equality/inequity, racial issues, social issues, punishments for crimes, and so forth. For all the people I've asked, not everyone is very willing to give their views on those topics. And for those that do, they're pretty loud about it. Anyone can rely on anecdotal evidence. But how often are christians surveyed on their views of child rape, what punishments people should get for crimes, their views on someone who converts to another religion? How often? Not very often.
Theocracies are bad. The counter-examples what's-his-face made in the Bill Maher rebuttal video are almost all examples of women being in power due to their families' social standing or due to a near militant secularization of their states. Islamophobia is real and a real problem here in the US, but fuck anyone's religion. I'm not obligated to respect your beliefs. I certainly don't respect a guy that raped a 9-year-old and claimed to be god a thousand years ago. And excuse me if it sounds "racist" but Abrahmic religions are trying to plunge our world into the next dark age by waging holy war, scratching and clawing the entire way that progress tries to drag them forward. Fuck them.
[QUOTE=TAU!;46167537]Wait, wait, I should be ashamed of myself, but at the same time you're only using percentages and polls to further your prejudice against muslims? Besides, I know my fair share of christians, anyone does really. I know my fair share of christians who have warped views on gender equality/inequity, racial issues, social issues, punishments for crimes, and so forth. For all the people I've asked, not everyone is very willing to give their views on those topics. And for those that do, they're pretty loud about it. Anyone can rely on anecdotal evidence. But how often are christians surveyed on their views of child rape, what punishments people should get for crimes, their views on someone who converts to another religion? How often? Not very often.[/QUOTE]
I literally did not read a single word of this. Looked like the same shit you've been spewing for the last hour or so.
IF you want to have a real discussion and talk about FACTS then I'll be back.
But you are getting your ass handed to you because you are a idiot and a blind follower.
You know about as much of what your talking about as Affleck, which is PROBABLY why you are defending him.
Do some research, its the fucking internet it'll take no time at all.
everyone's talking about religion as being the enabler but ignoring the fundamental, underlying reasons for why jihadists, terrorists, whatever even exist. and that's worrying.
I love this interview with Reza Aslan who makes excellent points regarding this whole debacle
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw[/media]
[QUOTE=Dewm;46167561]I literally did not read a single word of this. Looked like the same shit you've been spewing for the last hour or so.
IF you want to have a real discussion and talk about FACTS then I'll be back.
But you are getting your ass handed to you because you are a idiot and a blind follower.
You know about as much of what your talking about as Affleck, which is PROBABLY why you are defending him.
[B]Do some research, its the fucking internet it'll take no time at all.[/B][/QUOTE]
So you can easily look up these polls that show a number of muslims agreeing with killing and the like, but you can't look up what I've stated yourself?
[editline]6th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mooe94;46167608]everyone's talking about religion as being the enabler but ignoring the fundamental, underlying reasons for why jihadists, terrorists, whatever even exist. and that's worrying.
I love this interview with Reza Aslan who makes excellent points regarding this whole debacle
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw[/media][/QUOTE]
I've been looking for this for too long.
This is, for the most part, what I should have said from the start. Everything else has only been poorly phrased simply because I was mad. These major generalizations against muslim nations do nothing paint a vague understanding of the religion, the multiple countries with it as a predominant (or only) religion, and the people themselves that practice it regardless of sect or whatever. Yes, it is a problem in muslim nations, but that depends entirely on the nation and its people. But it must also be understood that there are, always have been, and always will be [b]people[/b] of different faiths that practice violence with their religion, or believe violence is a staple part of their religion. Even though it isn't, or doesn't have to be.
Some people in the Christian heartlands of the US don't like gays or non-whites. I don't then think every Christian is like that.
TV news really is bullshit. This isn't a debate. The whole thing is set in stone.
Let me put it this way. I truly believe that if it were the other way around, and Islam was more prevalent in the developed world while Christianity flourished in poorer regions, that there would be Christians beheading people and committing bombings. There are [b]plenty[/b] of Christians even in American that I believe would carry out violent attacks in the name of Christianity (and shit, they do) if they had the oppurtunity. The difference is that our society does not provide an outlet for these violent urges. This is less about my issue with religion and more about my issue with Theocracy. You can see how it's turned out in other places.
[QUOTE=Mooe94;46167608]everyone's talking about religion as being the enabler but ignoring the fundamental, underlying reasons for why jihadists, terrorists, whatever even exist. and that's worrying.
I love this interview with Reza Aslan who makes excellent points regarding this whole debacle
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw[/media][/QUOTE]
Here you go.
[url]http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/10/05/reza-aslan-is-wrong-about-islam-and-this-is-why/[/url]
I think Sam Harris goes too far and I think Ben Affleck is a terrible person for a counter debate.
[QUOTE=Aman;46167768]I think Sam Harris goes too far and I think Ben Affleck is a terrible person for a counter debate.[/QUOTE]
He was too aggressive in his counter, yes, but he wasn't wrong for pointing out Maher's massive generalization over muslims (even though he really could have done it in a more collected and civil manner). As if every last muslim is a part of some hivemind collective that thinks the exact same thing, and that every muslim country has the same exact kind of social environment, and is pretty much the same nation but multiplied over the world.
[QUOTE=TAU!;46167628]but you can't look up what I've stated yourself?
[/QUOTE]
Because you bear the burden of proof
Bill Maher getting blown the fuck out as usual, what a piece of shit.
Does he have any different tune apart from "Hur dur im a liberal and what I say is fact!" its just two more jewish guys trying to push their warped agenda. If you ask a person what defines them as an individual and person and they respond with "I'm a [political belief]" then I'd steer way fucking clear.
[QUOTE=toaster468;46167843]Because you bear the burden of proof[/QUOTE]
It's pretty difficult to provide a poll of Christians who believe crazy things when those kinds of polls aren't exactly done. Ever. I should have checked before stating that claim though, I'll admit.
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