[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45942321]On what that the government would be taking your property if you have a gun and they are banned now? On the fact that there's a giant market for illegal guns in the US? On the fact that it would cost millions of dollars to enforce a gun ban? On the fact that the entire business of selling firearms to private citizens would be illegal? Or on the fact that you'd at best make the ~9000 homicides/year harder and not impossible?
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There is a giant illegal gun market in the US. Where are those [url=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html]guns coming from[/url]? "Millions of dollars" is an understatement to say the least - the buyback program would be enormous. I would like a source on the fact that a gun ban wouldn't lead to a reduction in homicides - for example in connection to gang violence. Now, I'm talking about a long way down the line - at a point where most guns would actually have been taken out of circulation. You can't make murders impossible, but it seems logical that access to a firearm would make it a lot easier. You made the claim that the effect would be very faint, and I would like a proper source on that one.
[quote]Comparison of gun related deaths with other causes of death is not an argument for having no gun control.
It's an argument against the idea that americans are running around with guns killing people.[/QUOTE]
I was just pointing out that it's completely ridiculous to compare the to - unless you're Honduras (or the like), homicides aren't a significant part of the overall death rate. That doesn't make your country's actual murder rate insignificant in any way.
Again, I must stress that I don't think a gun ban is feasible in the US.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45942495]There is a giant illegal gun market in the US. Where are those [url=http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html]guns coming from[/url]? [/QUOTE]
Illegal gun market as in "people willing to buy guns illegally". It's a fact already, even without the gun ban. And where's a demand, there's going to be supply.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45942495]I would like a source on the fact that a gun ban wouldn't lead to a reduction in homicides - for example in connection to gang violence. Now, I'm talking about a long way down the line - at a point where most guns would actually have been taken out of circulation. You can't make murders impossible, but it seems logical that access to a firearm would make it a lot easier. You made the claim that the effect would be very faint, and I would like a proper source on that one. [/QUOTE]
I didn't say it wouldn't lead to reduction in homicides. I said it would make the ~9000 homicides/year harder to commit. And that's all you'd be doing if you'd issue a gun ban. You wouldn't STOP these ~9000 homicides/year, you'd make them harder to commit. It would probably mean that there would be more unsuccessful ones but it's not like you're getting rid of a problem, all you'd be doing would be making the result of a problem, less deadly. I've never made a claim what % would that be.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45942495]I was just pointing out that it's completely ridiculous to compare the to - unless you're Honduras (or the like), homicides aren't a significant part of the overall death rate. That doesn't make your country's actual murder rate insignificant in any way.
Again, I must stress that I don't think a gun ban is feasible in the US.[/QUOTE]
Again, the comparison was a counter-argument to the craze that people are getting killed left and right in the US by guns. Second hand smoking kills 4 times more people. Guns are not something that has to be fixed right this moment or else everyone's gonna die.
I like they have rules to stop criminals from getting guns legally
but since when do criminals do things legally
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45942611]Illegal gun market as in "people willing to buy guns illegally". It's a fact already, even without the gun ban. And where's a demand, there's going to be supply.
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Where is the supply going to come from, though? The prices would be driven up by the lower supply (and the quality of the weapon would suffer as well), and fewer criminals would be able to get one.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45942611]
I didn't say it wouldn't lead to reduction in homicides. I said it would make the ~9000 homicides/year harder to commit. And that's all you'd be doing if you'd issue a gun ban. You wouldn't STOP these ~9000 homicides/year, you'd make them harder to commit. It would probably mean that there would be more unsuccessful ones but it's not like you're getting rid of a problem, all you'd be doing would be making the result of a problem, less deadly. I've never made a claim what % would that be.
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You said it would be of little effect - that's not a percentage, but you could at least supply me with some kind of estimate from a reputable source. Making crimes harder to commit is an improvement, in my opinion.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;45942611]
Again, the comparison was a counter-argument to the craze that people are getting killed left and right in the US by guns. Second hand smoking kills 4 times more people. Guns are not something that has to be fixed right this moment or else everyone's gonna die.[/QUOTE]
There's a general effort to reduce smoking though? Just because there are other bigger problems doesn't mean you can't try to fix the smaller ones as well.
[editline]10th September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=GentlemanLexi;45942675]I like they have rules to stop criminals from getting guns legally
but since when do criminals do things legally[/QUOTE]
Ever heard of something called a "straw purchase"? Fairly few guns are stolen and then used, most criminals get them from straw purchases and from their friends and family. Tighter control could help.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45943160]Where is the supply going to come from, though? The prices would be driven up by the lower supply (and the quality of the weapon would suffer as well), and fewer criminals would be able to get one. [/QUOTE]
Sure, there would be less guns and overall they would be shittier. Doesn't change the fact that it would be a million dollar business to sell illegal guns in US with the gun ban in effect. Just like selling drugs is now. And seeing how you can buy drugs in every city on every second corner, I guess the ban on drugs didn't have an overwhelming effect. I mean fuck, there are drugs smuggled into the most secure prisons. And there are entire people smuggled over the border (which can't be disassembled into small parts and assembled after they have crossed the border), why do you assume you can keep the guns out of the US?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45943160]You said it would be of little effect - that's not a percentage, but you could at least supply me with some kind of estimate from a reputable source. Making crimes harder to commit is an improvement, in my opinion. [/QUOTE]
I said "not great at all" compared to the effort it would require to put it in effect.
I don't know what the estimate would be. Surely between 100% and 0% of the ~9000 homicides would be unsuccessful. That's not a big win compared to the effort you'd have to go through to achieve it.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45943160]There's a general effort to reduce smoking though? Just because there are other bigger problems doesn't mean you can't try to fix the smaller ones as well.[/QUOTE]
1. The argument was that it's not the majoritiest of the problems omg everyone is gonna get shot ban guns now or you're gonna die.
2. Yeah you can fix the smaller problems while fixing the major ones, except banning guns is not fixing a problem at all. Death by firearms is a result of a problem. Not the source. You are simply changing the ~9000 homicides/year by firearms into less than ~9000 homicides/year by other means, at a great cost, disproportional IMO.
If holding a gun in your hand would be the reason why people kill other people I would be all up for a gun ban, but it's not. Why do you think it's okay to forbid using something for everyone because a minority misuses it. It's like banning computers because there are hackers.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45943160]Making crimes harder to commit is an improvement, in my opinion. [/QUOTE]
You have to compare gains to loses. Why not just issue martial law, it would make crimes harder to commit.
Best would be to just end all guns all together, and just have mind battles!
[video=youtube;22Tj_l4PcPs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22Tj_l4PcPs[/video]
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