To say that feminism is for gender equality, and to say that it's basically the same thing as egalitarianism is disingenuous at best. Before I start my explanation, I want to clarify that what someone will agree with is going to be mostly dependent on what issues they personally deem more important. In some issues, women are unequal to men, and men are unequal to women in others. The issues you deem more important will most likely determine which group you coincide with the most.
While feminism can be described as an equality movement in a broad sense, it's main defining characteristic is that it advocates for women's equality and rights to men's. It's basis is that women do not yet have the same rights as men. Therefore, the main concentration is on women's rights and elevating women. As hard as people try to say "we want equality for men too!", the truth is that if feminism were truly "fighting for men's issues", we would see feminists working to help young boys get into and stay in college, protesting bad child custody cases, and wouldn't be trying to justify disproportionate domestic violence arrests. So, as much as feminists say they want to solve men's issues too, their actions don't support that assertion.
MRAs (well, the sane ones at least) advocate more for men's issues and equality in places where they lag behind women. This isn't to say that women have more rights, but that there are important issues facing men that need to be dealt with, like why men aren't going into or graduating college as much as women, or things like child custody issues. MRAs, however, have a HUGE issue with having a large section being nothing but tumblr feminist reactionaries. It drowns out the people who are really there to support men's issues, and not to hate on feminists.
Egalitarians are for equality between men and women, from the basis that both genders have issues that need to be addressed, and that we should address them both. It does not presume one gender to be of higher status than the other, but looks at all issues. An egalitarian will most likely agree and push for feminist AND mra issues at the same time, while not holding the base ideals of either movement.
[QUOTE=Jimesu_Evil;48387337]Don't forget they also boycotted Fury Road[/QUOTE]
I think I gained seven whole rights from that boycott. Thanks MRAs!
[QUOTE=Jimesu_Evil;48387337]Don't forget they also boycotted Fury Road[/QUOTE]
[quote=Wikipedia]The film has grossed over $368 million worldwide, making it the highest grossing film in the Mad Max franchise.[/quote]
The sad thing is that that "boycott" may be the closest the MRM has ever gotten to actually doing anything besides committing sexcrimes.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;48377465]Even TAA is above shit like this.[/QUOTE]
Haha
Of course MRAs haven't accomplished anything. This thread alone is proof that no matter what they do, no matter how legit it is, they get ridiculed to hell for it. While I do agree that MRA is stupid as hell since it's been overrun by idiots, you can't exactly blame them for not accomplishing anything when you're shaming them at the same time. No one listens to them because "haha MRA" rather than anything else.
Though this thread is really disgusting, I didn't know such a large part of fp was hardcore SJW. Yes, I used the term unironically how dare I right?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388841]Of course MRAs haven't accomplished anything. This thread alone is proof that no matter what they do, no matter how legit it is, they get ridiculed to hell for it. While I do agree that MRA is stupid as hell since it's been overrun by idiots, you can't exactly blame them for not accomplishing anything when you're shaming them at the same time. No one listens to them because "haha MRA" rather than anything else.
Though this thread is really disgusting, I didn't know such a large part of fp was hardcore SJW. Yes, I used the term unironically how dare I right?[/QUOTE]
They don't like being called "SJWs" but they'll conveniently call anyone they don't like an MRA
[QUOTE=Steele92;48388862]They don't like being called "SJWs" but they'll conveniently call anyone they don't like an MRA[/QUOTE]I actually didn't notice that before but it does seem to be a thing now indeed.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388841]I didn't know such a large part of fp was hardcore SJW.[/QUOTE]
So calling stupid radicals on one side stupid instantly makes you a stupid radical on the other side.
Brilliant logic I bow down to you
[QUOTE=Jimesu_Evil;48388879]So calling stupid radicals on one side stupid instantly makes you a stupid radical on the other side.
Brilliant logic I bow down to you[/QUOTE]
Radicals calling other radicals radical are being ironic.
You should bow down to your reading comprehension instead.
Except nobody here is a radical, you're just calling everybody that because nobody agrees with you.
Starlight is really radical I'd say.
[QUOTE=Jimesu_Evil;48388879]So calling stupid radicals on one side stupid instantly makes you a stupid radical on the other side.
Brilliant logic I bow down to you[/QUOTE]
it's more like a lot of people on one side are stupid radicals but not everyone is, but the stupid radicals on the other side ignore the ones with sense and say being an MRA means you're inherently a stupid radical. Kinda like how the stupid radical MRAs think that every feminist is a stupid radical, just the other way around, ya dig?
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388841]Of course MRAs haven't accomplished anything. This thread alone is proof that no matter what they do, no matter how legit it is, they get ridiculed to hell for it. While I do agree that MRA is stupid as hell since it's been overrun by idiots, you can't exactly blame them for not accomplishing anything when you're shaming them at the same time. No one listens to them because "haha MRA" rather than anything else.
Though this thread is really disgusting, I didn't know such a large part of fp was hardcore SJW. Yes, I used the term unironically how dare I right?[/QUOTE]
implying feminism wasn't mocked and ridiculed for [I]decades[/I] when women just wanted to get suffrage
everything MRAs fight for [i]is already included in feminism[/i]. I'm a male feminist - I focus more heavily on issues of male inequality than female inequality, but I'm still a feminist because I'm for gender equality.
i'm not a social justice warrior I don't blog about this shit, I just read about it to educate myself and learn different perspectives. you have the same perspectives I had before I decided to actually read shit and do my own research on the history of feminism and modern social issues. i like to keep up to date.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48388929]you have the same perspectives I had before I decided to actually read shit and do my own research on the history of feminism and modern social issues. i like to keep up to date.[/QUOTE]
And yet you sneakily try to insult me without providing any info to back the claim.
Care to elaborate, because I'm curious.
[QUOTE=Blazedol;48388906]it's more like a lot of people on one side are stupid radicals but not everyone is, but the stupid radicals on the other side ignore the ones with sense and say being an MRA means you're inherently a stupid radical. Kinda like how the stupid radical MRAs think that every feminist is a stupid radical, just the other way around, ya dig?[/QUOTE]
being an MRA doesn't make you a stupid radical. it means you're misinformed about feminism 100% of the time. it's a counter-movement created out of a pure misunderstanding about the goals of feminism and a narrow worldview fostered by the internet. it's not necessarily hateful or bad in any way, it's just that the movement attracts the sort of people who are rabidly anti-feminist and ends up being an echo chamber of sexists. when it started out it wasn't terrible, just misinformed. like most places on reddit, though, it becomes an echo chamber and opinions become more and more radical. it's the same phenomenon that happens to those "tumblr feminists" that everyone hates.
i like facepunch because you get discussions about these sorts of issues without getting banned or anything, there's a lot of different worldviews here and they aren't corralled into a certain section of the website.
What has feminism done for men or what is it doing now? These are the only two questions I've never got a solid answer to.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388948]What has feminism done for men or what is it doing now? These are the only two questions I've never got a solid answer to.[/QUOTE]
"what has feminism done for men"
do you know what feminism is
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388936]And yet you sneakily try to insult me without providing any info to back the claim.
Care to elaborate, because I'm curious.[/QUOTE]
i'm not even insulting you - i'm saying you're exactly like I was circa 2011. i literally had the same opinions as you did - i was subscribed to /r/mensrights, i thought /r/redpill was just for confidence, i loved /r/seduction because it was a confidence booster... all sorts of shit.
if you actually read into feminism it's very much about gender equality of both sexes. there are people who fight for equal standing for men. there are people who vehemently consider themselves feminists and then campaign for shelters for men and to get rid of the man-with-kid-is-a-pedophile stigma and to remove "masculine" stigmas against mental illness and even physical illness. it's about breaking down gender barriers.
i'll admit some things aren't given as much attention, like the suicide rate of men, etc. but the "ALL MEN ARE PIGS" feminist really isn't very common any more than a pickup artist talking about how women are just biological machines that can be toyed with and hacked. it's an outlier.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388841]Of course MRAs haven't accomplished anything. This thread alone is proof that no matter what they do, no matter how legit it is, they get ridiculed to hell for it. While I do agree that MRA is stupid as hell since it's been overrun by idiots, you can't exactly blame them for not accomplishing anything when you're shaming them at the same time. No one listens to them because "haha MRA" rather than anything else.
Though this thread is really disgusting, I didn't know such a large part of fp was hardcore SJW. Yes, I used the term unironically how dare I right?[/QUOTE]
this is such a gross post my god
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388948]What has feminism done for men or what is it doing now? These are the only two questions I've never got a solid answer to.[/QUOTE]
Feminism campaigned to change the legal definition of "rape" to allow men to be victims, when previously only women could be victims of rape.
In certain countries, feminists have fought successfully for parental leave along with maternal leave. Places like Sweden have parental leave fully equal to maternal leave after childbirth.
[I]Craig v. Boren[/I] was a 1976 court case where some areas allowed women to drink at 18 but men to drink at 21, which is discriminatory against men. They won, and balanced the drinking age for both genders.
Just fucking google and you'll find dozens of examples.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48388957]i'm not even insulting you - i'm saying you're exactly like I was circa 2011. i literally had the same opinions as you did - i was subscribed to /r/mensrights, i thought /r/redpill was just for confidence, i loved /r/seduction because it was a confidence booster... all sorts of shit.
[/QUOTE]
But I don't like none of these? mra sub is mostly whining, redpill, well, I don't think I even need to say, and seduction is just sad.
I agree with feminism as an ideology but I do not wish to say I am one because then I'd be in the same group as people like Starlight and MaxOf. My other problem is that people like you don't seem to care for extremists within the group. Gives off a bad vibe as if you're secretly supporting them.
[editline]6th August 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bumrang;48388962]this is such a gross post my god[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Bumrang;48388955]"what has feminism done for men"
do you know what feminism is[/QUOTE]
Could you please cut your shitposting? If you have nothing to say, keep it to yourself. If you do, construct at least once sentence.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48388937]being an MRA doesn't make you a stupid radical. it means you're misinformed about feminism 100% of the time. it's a counter-movement created out of a pure misunderstanding about the goals of feminism and a narrow worldview fostered by the internet. it's not necessarily hateful or bad in any way, it's just that the movement attracts the sort of people who are rabidly anti-feminist and ends up being an echo chamber of sexists. when it started out it wasn't terrible, just misinformed. like most places on reddit, though, it becomes an echo chamber and opinions become more and more radical. it's the same phenomenon that happens to those "tumblr feminists" that everyone hates.
i like facepunch because you get discussions about these sorts of issues without getting banned or anything, there's a lot of different worldviews here and they aren't corralled into a certain section of the website.[/QUOTE]
ok, it started out as a shitty thing, as a backlash to feminism in the late 70s. I know that, most people know it doesn't have the best origins, what does that have to do with it now, though?
Now, to the sensible, it's more of an awareness group to get people to understand that men aren't all pugs and shit like that.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388979]But I don't like none of these? mra sub is mostly whining, redpill, well, I don't think I even need to say, and seduction is just sad.
I agree with feminism as an ideology but I do not wish to say I am one because then I'd be in the same group as people like Starlight and MaxOf. My other problem is that people like you don't seem to care for extremists within the group. Gives off a bad vibe as if you're secretly supporting them.
[editline]6th August 2015[/editline]
Could you please cut your shitposting? If you have nothing to say, keep it to yourself. If you do, construct at least once sentence.[/QUOTE]
Then don't say it. Would you say "Oh, I'm not actually white, Dylann Roof was white, I don't want to be associated with him. I'm actually (other race)."
It's just stupid to make a distinction there. You will disagree with people in any movement. I consider myself a proponent of Black Lives Matter, but there are hundreds of things I disagree with coming out of the movement. I consider myself a Democrat, but there are literally THOUSANDS of things I disagree with the party about.
You don't have to say you're a feminist - you're just splitting hairs, though. It's the same as making the assumption that all muslims must be "secretly supporting" terrorism, as if the extremists are actually indicative of everyone else. It's intellectually dishonest.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48388979]I agree with feminism as an ideology but I do not wish to say I am one because then I'd be in the same group as people like Starlight and MaxOf.[/QUOTE]
You can be a feminist while not being lumped in with the douches. All you have to do is not be a douche.
[quote]My other problem is that people like you don't seem to care for extremists within the group. Gives off a bad vibe as if you're secretly supporting them.[/quote]
What?
Do you mean people who don't [i]like[/i] the extremists within their group, or people who pretend extremists within their group don't exist?
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48388999]
You don't have to say you're a feminist - you're just splitting hairs, though. It's the same as making the assumption that all muslims must be "secretly supporting" terrorism, as if the extremists are actually indicative of everyone else. It's intellectually dishonest.[/QUOTE]
I thought someone would claim the muslim analogy. And yeah, if you don't mind ISIS as a muslim then I presume you at least to some degree agree with what they're doing. I've seen plenty of muslims to say ISIS is not real islam and condemning their actions. Feminists? I personally have not seen any of them go against the more radical kind. Unless their ideas differ. If they're same, the means they promote them does not seem to matter, be it calm or extremist.
For example Anita, seems to be a con rather than a feminist and yet cashgrabbing is good and even encouraged by others.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48389013]I thought someone would claim the muslim analogy. And yeah, if you don't mind ISIS as a muslim then I presume you at least to some degree agree with what they're doing. I've seen plenty of muslims to say ISIS is not real islam and condemning their actions. Feminists? I personally have not seen any of them go against the more radical kind. Unless their ideas differ. If they're same, the means they promote them does not seem to matter, be it calm or extremist.
For example Anita, seems to be a con rather than a feminist and yet cashgrabbing is good and even encouraged by others.[/QUOTE]
So you want me to vehemently disagree with "radical feminists?"
Radical feminists aren't chopping off people's heads in the name of religion. They're usually making a few jokes and ranting at people. I don't agree with them on a lot of things, but so what? They aren't hurting anybody.
Should I denounce "radical atheists" for being so aggressive and distasteful? Should I say they're not "real atheists?" Or maybe I just realize that feminism and atheism are equally complex "movements" with no leaders and no set rules or beliefs. If someone is radical and says they're a feminist, okay, cool, good for them, it doesn't affect me and I don't care. If they start cutting off heads, yeah, I'll react a little more harshly.
I very much dislike Sarkeesian but I'm not going to say she's "not a feminist" because splitting hairs about what is or isn't feminism in a world where social movements are amorphous and leaderless is pointless. she's a feminist, okay, i disagree with her, okay, i can still be a feminist.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;48389013]Feminists? I personally have not seen any of them go against the more radical kind.[/QUOTE]
So because [i]you[/i] don't see it you think it doesn't happen. [i]I personally[/i] have seen it a few times so, you're wrong there.
It was very insightful. I'll be going out of this thread now.
[QUOTE=.Isak.;48388937]being an MRA doesn't make you a stupid radical. it means you're misinformed about feminism 100% of the time. it's a counter-movement created out of a pure misunderstanding about the goals of feminism and a narrow worldview[/QUOTE]
One problem I have with this argument is there's this implication that men's issues can only legitimately be talked about exclusively within the context of feminism. Can men's issues be solved through feminism? Many can of course, but it isn't fair to just dismiss someone if they disagree
[QUOTE=Steele92;48389069]One problem I have with this argument is there's this implication that men's issues can only legitimately be talked about exclusively within the context of feminism. Can men's issues be solved through feminism? Many can of course, but it isn't fair to just dismiss someone if they disagree[/QUOTE]
it's a counter-movement based on issues that the original movement already addresses
it's basically if a racial equality group split off and said "no, we need ASIAN equality!"
yeah well that's what racial equality is already doing so why make a fuss and make a new movement around specifically ASIAN equality, especially if your new movement is going to constantly be saying stuff negative about racial equality and saying that asians are more discriminated than any other group and that asian equality is more important and asian equality is a real issue but racial equality doesn't matter.
if mens' rights activists were a subset of feminism, people wouldn't care. but they're not - they're a group that actively derides feminism and gender equality in favor of specifically men's rights. not gender equality - men's rights. men only.
it's just a silly distinction to make in the first place. you could just say you're for men's rights without being against feminism and nobody would care, when you state that you're for men's rights and you're against feminism you're basically saying "asians deserve equality but racial equality eh lol"
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.