Ben Shapiro: The Myth of the Tiny Radical Muslim Minority - General

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50541731]Not sure how I didn't know about that, but thankfully I do now.[/QUOTE] Here's a few others you might be interested in seeing. [URL="http://biblehub.com/luke/19-27.htm"]When Jesus said to kill nonbelievers in front of him.[/URL] [URL="http://biblehub.com/leviticus/24-16.htm"]The law that says blasphemers must be stoned to death.[/URL] This is not an issue with Islam somehow being more inherently violent than Christianity. It has to do with interpretation. In the mid-to-late 1800s, Islamic Modernism was a strong movement that essentially any secular person could look at and say "yeah that's cool I like these guys." Try telling me someone like [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Abduh"]Muhammad Abduh[/URL] wouldn't fit in to a secular western country. It promotes individual interpretation and numerous progressive ideas to compete with the modernizing western world. It has an enormous respect for science, philosophy, and study. This is still the predominant form of Islam in the Western world.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;50541779]Here's a few others you might be interested in seeing. [URL="http://biblehub.com/luke/19-27.htm"]When Jesus said to kill nonbelievers in front of him.[/URL][/QUOTE] Oh god not this fucking bullshit again If you read the actual chapter this is from, Jesus is telling a story about a king and the king in the story says this. You really think that Jesus, fucking Jesus, is telling people to kill non-believers? And you are so unshocked by this that you don't even bother to look up the context to see if it's bullshit? I thought you were better than this Isak. Here's the full context for those who are curious [url]https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19[/url]

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;50541725]The Persian gulf is about as wealthy as south and east Europe[/QUOTE] For the few in those countries that are wealthy. The vast majority of people living in those countries are poor and the few that are wealthy are arguably complete psychopaths that use religious dogma to maintain their power.

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;50541800]Oh god not this fucking bullshit again If you read the actual chapter this is from, Jesus is telling a story about a king and the king in the story says this. You really think that Jesus, fucking Jesus, is telling people to kill non-believers? And you are so unshocked by this that you don't even bother to look up the context to see if it's bullshit? I thought you were better than this Isak.[/QUOTE] Sorry - you're right, I should've looked up the context. Trying to look for violent verses in the Bible will lead you to some poor, biased sources, to say the least.

This thread has already been posted before: [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1499369&p=4941796[/url]

[QUOTE=Zyler;50541807]For the few in those countries that are wealthy. The vast majority of people living in those countries are poor and the few that are wealthy are arguably complete psychopaths that use religious dogma to maintain their power.[/QUOTE] All of the arab nationals there are wealthy AS FUCK. It's the indians and africans used for slave labour that have shit living conditions. An't I'll wager that it's mostly the arabs that are muslim.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50541714]I could not find anything citing directly to the bible that gays are supposed to be executed as opposed to the Quaran. Yes, the idea of homosexuality being bad may have been taken by the bible, but it is never explicitly said to kill them. Honestly, anybody can believe anything they want but so long as a religious texts [as shown in the Quaran] are promoting violence and tearing basic human rights from others, I have a problem.[/QUOTE] There's nothing in the Quaran that says homosexuals should be killed, people just interpret it that way. People interpret The Bible to mean that homosexuality is a sin and that people who sin must be killed. Who gives a damn what a book says when people will interpret that shit to mean whatever they want anyway. There are plenty of moderate Muslims who are neutral or supportive of LGBT rights, they just interpret the religious text to mean whatever they want it to mean just like everybody else. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Daniel Smith;50541835]All of the arab nationals there are wealthy AS FUCK. It's the indians and africans used for slave labour that have shit living conditions. An't I'll wager that it's mostly the arabs that are muslim.[/QUOTE] Still, I doubt the level of wealth equality and human rights (and therefore the level of education) is high enough in those countries to be equally compared to a western value system. For every wealthy national there's a thousand who are poor. Their wealth comes from oil after all and somebodies gotta work the oil rigs, probably for pennies a day for their trouble. Those numbers might be skewed because the majority of workers are immigrants or foreign nationals, but those immigrant workers probably also make up a large amount of the population if not the majority. It's not Islam that makes those Arabic Nationals use what is essentially slave labor, it's more that they are psychopaths who use their religion as a cudgel to beat people into servitude with. I wouldn't be surprised if the Indian and African workers are forcibly 'converted' to Islam anyway.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;50541779]Here's a few others you might be interested in seeing. [URL="http://biblehub.com/luke/19-27.htm"]When Jesus said to kill nonbelievers in front of him.[/URL][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Helix Snake;50541800]Oh god not this fucking bullshit again If you read the actual chapter this is from, Jesus is telling a story about a king and the king in the story says this. You really think that Jesus, fucking Jesus, is telling people to kill non-believers? And you are so unshocked by this that you don't even bother to look up the context to see if it's bullshit? I thought you were better than this Isak. Here's the full context for those who are curious [url]https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19[/url][/QUOTE] people misinterpreting or misquoting shit like this is the main fucking cause of most of these religious crimes committed. incredible, he's set the example up so well without even [U]trying[/U].

[QUOTE=Zyler;50541852]There's nothing in the Quaran that says homosexuals should be killed, people just interpret it that way. People interpret The Bible to mean that homosexuality is a sin and that people who sin must be killed. Who gives a damn what a book says when people will interpret that shit to mean whatever they want anyway. There are plenty of moderate Muslims who are neutral or supportive of LGBT rights, they just interpret the religious text to mean whatever they want it to mean just like everybody else. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] I doubt the level of wealthy equality and human rights in those countries is equal to that in the west. For every wealthy national there's a thousand who are poor. Their wealth comes from oil after all and somebodies gotta work the oil rigs, probably for pennies a day for their trouble. Those numbers might be skewed because the majority of workers are immigrants or foreign nationals, but those immigrant workers probably also make up a large amount of the population if not the majority. It's not Islam that makes those Arab Nationals use what is essentially slave labour, it's more that they are psychopaths who use their religion as a cudgel to beat people into servitude with.[/QUOTE] I didn't say Islam made them justify using slave labour. And their monthly wage is similar to Poland, sure it's not like west Europe but it's not Afghanistan either.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;50541905]I didn't say Islam made them justify using slave labour. And their monthly wage is similar to Poland, sure it's not like west Europe but it's not Afghanistan either.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure what the point you're making is then. Mooman said that Islamic people take their religious texts more seriously and I was positing that the reason for that is that is perhaps, in general, muslim-dominated countries are poorer (i.e. poorer people) and less educated and therefore more superstitious. Of course these are massive generalizations and there are exceptions but at the same time I'm talking about the wealth of the average person in these countries and not the National GDP or something like that. There are wealthy people who happen to be muslim, but the majority of people living in a lot of countries aren't. Perhaps I should just say educated/uneducated and not wealthy/poor? The average person in a lot (not all) muslim-dominated countries tend to be less educated and less wealthy while people in western countries whom tend to be (not always) more educated and more wealthy and most importantly less religious. Therefore, it's not the religion itself that leads to people being more religious, instead it's the wealth disparity and lack of education in many places.

[QUOTE=kr1f333;50541164][IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-13.png[/IMG] from the source mentioned in the video. clearly these extremist muslims are the majority!![/QUOTE] The poll you just posted literally proves Shapiro's point. I love you you had to change the argument. You sarcastically said "clearly these extremist muslims are the majority!!". Why don't you re-read the title of the video? You'll find out that he is not arguing that extremists make up the majority of the Muslim population. He is arguing against the fact that it is a [I]tiny[/I] minority that believes in terrible things like suicide bombing. Your post literally proves his point. Look at the numbers.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50542046]The poll you just posted literally proves Shapiro's point. I love you you had to change the argument. You sarcastically said "clearly these extremist muslims are the majority!!". Why don't you re-read the title of the video? You'll find out that he is not arguing that extremists make up the majority of the Muslim population. He is arguing against the fact that it is a [I]tiny[/I] minority that believes in terrible things like suicide bombing. Your post literally proves his point. Look at the numbers.[/QUOTE] It's still a minority, whether or not it is a [I]tiny[/I] minority is a subjective opinion.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50541852]There's nothing in the Quaran that says homosexuals should be killed, people just interpret it that way. People interpret The Bible to mean that homosexuality is a sin and that people who sin must be killed. Who gives a damn what a book says when people will interpret that shit to mean whatever they want anyway. [/QUOTE] You have to remember that, unlike Christianity, Islam holds the Hadith as authoritative as well, and the hadith are incredibly clear about killing homosexuals. The hadith by Ibn Dawood, one of the six authoritative hadith recognized by Sunni Islam, says: "Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done." ([URL]http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/038-sat.php#038.4447[/URL]) There's also no saving context because it's an individual statement without anything else around it.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50542067]It's still a minority, whether or not it is a [I]tiny[/I] minority is a subjective opinion.[/QUOTE] Nobody finds these numbers tiny. You don't, I don't, nobody does. The point of the video is to shine a light on these numbers. Regressive obscurantists would have you believe that <1% of Muslims believe this stuff. Its simply not true. The reality is far scarier.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50542067]It's still a minority, whether or not it is a [I]tiny[/I] minority is a subjective opinion.[/QUOTE] Now say that about literally any shooting and see how well it goes.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50542107]Nobody finds these numbers tiny. You don't, I don't, nobody does. The point of the video is to shine a light on these numbers. Regressive obscurantists would have you believe that <1% of Muslims believe this stuff. Its simply not true. The reality is far scarier.[/QUOTE] Nah, based off the Pew results kr1f333 posted, it's a tiny number here in the civilized world. As for places like Afghanistan, Palestine, and Turkey, it's higher of course. They're backwards shitholes. Why would anybody expect this to be different or think it's some kind of fascinating revelation? But Shapiro is a Jew through and through, painfully conservative and a registered Republican, worked for fucking Breitbart... so it's not surprising at all that he's pushing this narrative as though it applies to Muslims in general throughout the world, like they're some kind of underground threat just waiting to destroy us with their radical beliefs. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] And this is speaking as somebody who thinks Islam is a ridiculous religion. Sorry to disappoint, but the majority of people that follow it aren't any more dangerous than your average once-a-week snake-handling, holy roller Christian here in the United States. They're not dangerous radicals, they don't follow their religion properly (as in literally), and they don't care that much about other people's beliefs.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;50542107] The reality is far scarier.[/QUOTE] not really? muslims in more civilized areas are the ones who dont believe that stuff. ones in shitholes, who have spent their entire lives in fear, believe its justified, because they dont know anything else. people living in america and the uk know better. personally I think islam would be much better off with a sort of, new testament, of sorts? like christianity. if the old bible was still around, it would be disgusting, considering what was in there.

[QUOTE=mooman1080;50542156]Now say that about literally any shooting and see how well it goes.[/QUOTE] Well school shooters/terrorists are a minority by default, aren't they? [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Govna;50542405]Nah, based off the Pew results kr1f333 posted, it's a tiny number here in the civilized world. As for places like Afghanistan, Palestine, and Turkey, it's higher of course. They're backwards shitholes. Why would anybody expect this to be different or think it's some kind of fascinating revelation? But Shapiro is a Jew through and through, painfully conservative and a registered Republican, worked for fucking Breitbart... so it's not surprising at all that he's pushing this narrative as though it applies to Muslims in general throughout the world, like they're some kind of underground threat just waiting to destroy us with their radical beliefs. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] And this is speaking as somebody who thinks Islam is a ridiculous religion. Sorry to disappoint, but the majority of people that follow it aren't any more dangerous than your average once-a-week snake-handling, holy roller Christian here in the United States. They're not dangerous radicals, they don't follow their religion properly (as in literally), and they don't care that much about other people's beliefs.[/QUOTE] This is the point I was making, these radical beliefs are not due to being Islamic, they are due to living in backwards third-world countries. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;50542100]You have to remember that, unlike Christianity, Islam holds the Hadith as authoritative as well, and the hadith are incredibly clear about killing homosexuals. The hadith by Ibn Dawood, one of the six authoritative hadith recognized by Sunni Islam, says: "Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done." ([URL]http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/038-sat.php#038.4447[/URL]) There's also no saving context because it's an individual statement without anything else around it.[/QUOTE] That's only Sunni Muslims who follow the Hadith, that's like comparing orthodox jews to regular jews or the Westboro Baptist Church to an everyday Christian. Most moderate Muslims are Shiite or Kurdish. It's deceptive to argue that all of Islam condones the murdering of LGBT people because of one sect, and that's even ignoring the fact that people just ignore whatever their religious holy book tells them anyway. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Naught;50542447]not really? muslims in more civilized areas are the ones who dont believe that stuff. ones in shitholes, who have spent their entire lives in fear, believe its justified, because they dont know anything else. people living in america and the uk know better. personally I think islam would be much better off with a sort of, new testament, of sorts? like christianity. if the old bible was still around, it would be disgusting, considering what was in there.[/QUOTE] Jewish people follow the old testament, I generally think they're pretty okay for the most part (barring the Israeli government maybe, but they don't represent all jewish people). Being an insane religious person has more to do with where you live and your upbringing rather than the religion itself. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Govna;50542405]Nah, based off the Pew results kr1f333 posted, it's a tiny number here in the civilized world. As for places like Afghanistan, Palestine, and Turkey, it's higher of course. They're backwards shitholes. Why would anybody expect this to be different or think it's some kind of fascinating revelation? But Shapiro is a Jew through and through, painfully conservative and a registered Republican, worked for fucking Breitbart... so it's not surprising at all that he's pushing this narrative as though it applies to Muslims in general throughout the world, like they're some kind of underground threat just waiting to destroy us with their radical beliefs. [editline]18th June 2016[/editline] And this is speaking as somebody who thinks Islam is a ridiculous religion. Sorry to disappoint, but the majority of people that follow it aren't any more dangerous than your average once-a-week snake-handling, holy roller Christian here in the United States. They're not dangerous radicals, they don't follow their religion properly (as in literally), and they don't care that much about other people's beliefs.[/QUOTE] This.

[QUOTE=Zyler;50542495]That's only Sunni Muslims who follow the Hadith, that's like comparing orthodox jews to regular jews or the Westboro Baptist Church to an everyday Christian. Most moderate Muslims are Shiite or Kurdish. It's deceptive to argue that all of Islam condones the murdering of LGBT people because of one sect, and that's even ignoring the fact that people just ignore whatever their religious holy book tells them anyway.[/QUOTE] Basically all Muslims outside of Iran and Hezbollah are Sunni (~85-90%) So, no, it's nothing like the groups you stated. Sunnis are by far the largest and most relevant sect of Islam.

[QUOTE=sgman91;50542525]Basically all Muslims outside of Iran and Hezbollah are Sunni (~85-90%) So, no, it's nothing like the groups you stated. Sunnis are by far the largest sect of Islam.[/QUOTE] Once again, you're ignoring the fact that people don't follow their religious texts, so this whole argument is pointless. And you're also ignoring the point I (and several other posters) have made that the majority of muslims in [B]the west[/B] are moderate and reasonable (at least as far as your average holier-than-thou Christian). The majority of muslims that live in the middle east live in areas that are considered to be backwards third-world countries, so a large number of muslims share the sentiments that Christians living in backwards third-world countries in Africa do about LGBT rights. Your attempt to conflate and hone in on insignificant phrases in religious texts that nobody follows because religion is made up anyway is irrelevant. You cannot logically, rationally, morally or otherwise group all people of a single religion under the same category of violent extremists just to claim that the made-up religion they follow is somehow fundamentally evil and violent (at least any more so than just about any other major religion). You're splitting hairs in order to prove a point that doesn't even exist.

[video=youtube;xEMHKO5MC6c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEMHKO5MC6c[/video]

[QUOTE=Naught;50542447]personally I think islam would be much better off with a sort of, new testament, of sorts? like christianity. if the old bible was still around, it would be disgusting, considering what was in there.[/QUOTE] I've actually been reading the Quran and the thing is it really doesn't say much about extremism or violence. There are plenty of passages that are respectful of other religions (especially Christianity) and plenty of passages that outright condemn violence. But, like the Bible, it contradicts itself all the time so there are plenty of possible interpretations. There's a big difference between supporting fundamentalist ideas like Sharia law and supporting the twisted interpretations of the Quran that say blowing up children is OK.

What are you proposing when you say that moderate Muslims do not exist? Are you claiming that all Muslims who call themselves moderate and support LGBT rights are lying and are playing some long con in order to trick western governments into thinking Islam is not evil? Are the Islamic organizations that helped organize blood donations for victims of the Orlando Shooting part of the long con too? I mean, if you're arguing that there are shitty people in the world and some of them happen to be Muslim then I agree with you. If you're arguing that the whole concept of Islam is somehow some fundamentally corrupting entity (at least any moreso than any other major religion) then you have to actually prove that with some logic rather than pointing and waving your hands ominously at some words in a book that nobody actually reads or follows anyway. Even if the majority of Muslims were all ISIS members, there's still a big difference between saying that [I]most[/I] Muslims are terrorists and [I]all[/I] Muslims are terrorists. As long as there are any Muslim people who are moderate and reasonable, it is fundamentally incorrect to put all members of a religion under a single category or to paint them all with the same brush.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50542552][video=youtube;xEMHKO5MC6c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEMHKO5MC6c[/video][/QUOTE] I think you're really afraid of Muslims and you like cherry picking data that support your fears. That same speaker's response to the Orlando shootings (check it out on islamnet.no): "Islam - and all rising Muslims - condemn such cold-blooded murder, period." These people may believe in Sharia law, but they aren't terrorists. As long as they are willing to operate within the law, what is the problem? There are plenty of crazy people in democratic countries who support ridiculous political causes (*cough* TRUMP *cough*), but what can you do other than hope that the democratic system is resilient to such harmful ideas?

[QUOTE=Zyler;50542550]Once again, you're ignoring the fact that people don't follow their religious texts, so this whole argument is pointless. And you're also ignoring the point I (and several other posters) have made that the majority of muslims in [B]the west[/B] are moderate and reasonable (at least as far as your average holier-than-thou Christian). The majority of muslims that live in the middle east live in areas that are considered to be backwards third-world countries, so a large number of muslims share the sentiments that Christians living in backwards third-world countries in Africa do about LGBT rights. Your attempt to conflate and hone in on insignificant phrases in religious texts that nobody follows because religion is made up anyway is irrelevant. You cannot logically, rationally, morally or otherwise group all people of a single religion under the same category of violent extremists just to claim that the made-up religion they follow is somehow fundamentally evil and violent (at least any more so than just about any other major religion). You're splitting hairs in order to prove a point that doesn't even exist.[/QUOTE] I can make a completely theologically coherent and comprehensive case against killing homosexuals within Christianity. I don't have to ignore any verses. I don't have to selectively quote. Etc. That can't be said for Islam. For a Muslim to not want to kill homosexuals they need to either be ignorant of or willing to ignore parts of their authoritative texts. [editline]17th June 2016[/editline] That is a real difference between the two religions. Let's also not ignore that you tried to make Sunni Islam sound like some small or insignificant part of Islam as a whole when it is, in fact, the vast majority if Islam.

[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50542552][video=youtube;xEMHKO5MC6c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEMHKO5MC6c[/video][/QUOTE] Yes this one room of Muslims represents the majority, clearly. Doesn't help when the vid description and end text are heavily racist either.

[QUOTE=sgman91;50542595]I can make a completely theologically coherent and comprehensive case against killing homosexuals within Christianity. I don't have to ignore any verses. I don't have to selectively quote. Etc. That can't be said for Islam. For a Muslim to not want to kill homosexuals they need to either be ignorant of or willing to ignore parts of their authoritative texts. [editline]17th June 2016[/editline] That is a real difference between the two religions. Let's also not ignore that you tried to make Sunni Islam sound like some small or insignificant part of Islam as a whole when it is, in fact, the vast majority if Islam.[/QUOTE] Why does it matter if people completely contradict their own religion? It's completely made-up. It's fiction. God isn't real. People can interpret it to mean whatever they want it to mean. Again, refer to my previous post. What are you actually arguing? Are you saying that all moderate Muslims are secretly lying and in actuality some evil force intending to murder all the gays? [QUOTE=Zyler;50542568]What are you proposing when you say that moderate Muslims do not exist? Are you claiming that all Muslims who call themselves moderate and support LGBT rights are lying and are playing some long con in order to trick western governments into thinking Islam is not evil? Are the Islamic organizations that helped organize blood donations for victims of the Orlando Shooting part of the long con too? I mean, if you're arguing that there are shitty people in the world and some of them happen to be Muslim then I agree with you. If you're arguing that the whole concept of Islam is somehow some fundamentally corrupting entity (at least any moreso than any other major religion) then you have to actually prove that with some logic rather than pointing and waving your hands ominously at some words in a book that nobody actually reads or follows anyway. Even if the majority of Muslims were all ISIS members, there's still a big difference between saying that [I]most[/I] Muslims are terrorists and [I]all[/I] Muslims are terrorists. As long as there are any Muslim people who are moderate and reasonable, it is fundamentally incorrect to put all members of a religion under a single category or to paint them all with the same brush.[/QUOTE] So what if they're hypocrites? So what if they're lying to themselves? I happen to think all religious people are lying to themselves for believing in God in the first place. Outside of reactionary rhetoric, what kind of argument are you actually making? You're not making an actual point. This made-up book is better than this other made-up book! So what?

Shapiro is not a name I thought I would ever see on Facepunch. Now that's a man with problems.

[QUOTE=kr1f333;50541164][IMG]http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/gsi2-overview-13.png[/IMG] from the source mentioned in the video. clearly these extremist muslims are the majority!![/QUOTE] You do have to take into account the total number. 15% in Turkey believe bombing is justified sometimes. Okay that's a pretty small minority really. That's still 11 MILLION people. That's the entire population of Ohio. 3% in Tajikistan. That's still a quarter of a million people. 18% in Malaysia, 3.3 Million. Numbers that big makes the fact that they're a minority sort of irrelevant. I wonder what the total number is based off just that chart. I bet it's well over a hundred million. Compared to the total number of muslims, it's a much smaller number. But look at all the damage just one person can cause, time and time again

[QUOTE=TheTalon;50542809]You do have to take into account the total number. 15% in Turkey believe bombing is justified sometimes. Okay that's a pretty small minority really. That's still 11 MILLION people. That's the entire population of Ohio. 3% in Tajikistan. That's still a quarter of a million people. 18% in Malaysia, 3.3 Million. Numbers that big makes the fact that they're a minority sort of irrelevant[/QUOTE] Not really, since there's a big difference between supporting something and actually going out and doing it. It'd be like if you went to a poor black community in the US and conducted interviews and asked people if shooting police officers was ever justified. You might have a higher than average number of people agreeing to the sentiment but there's a big difference between the number of people who support the thing versus the number who'd actually do it. Plus a number of those people are probably thinking in terms of the Israeli/Palestine situation with the "is it ever justified" question rather than supporting blowing up a hospital in the United States or something like that. It's not something they would regularly support except in extreme situations. There's a lot of support for Palestine in the Muslim community. It's like asking the question "is it ever okay to kill someone?" and then concluding that everyone who agreed is a bloodthirsty murderer.