Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=Tweevle;42916631]Yeah, I don't think it's going to happen overnight, but still, I think more could be done to improve that without making it unattractive to male gamers.[/QUOTE] The only argument that devs are going to listen to is money. You've got to show them that we don't appreciate poorly written, one dimensional female characters, ms male and smurfette anymore. Bad writing should influence rating of the games. And ratings are going to influence sales. And abandoning shit like smurfette trope isn't as much as making it unattractive to male gamers as it is putting more effort by devs into character design.

[QUOTE=person11;42915295]Sorry, I guess it's not obvious to everyone but it seems simple to me. The problems are a lack of diversity in both the characters of video games and the developers and writers of video games. Having well written women and non white people could be solved with more diverse developers. Of course, the lack of diversity is not always due to horrible hiring practices and misogyny in the work place, though that is common as well, it is also due to women and minorities not even trying to include themselves in the industry because they fear it would not be worth the effort because of the mistreatment. There are already plenty of programs dedicated to encouraging women to get into the industry, but the best solution to encouraging any group to get into the video gaming community would be to stop being assholes to them. Summary: well written, diverse, and non sexualities characters, more diverse developers and writers, and not being assholes to anyone who tries to point out that the solution is the first two things[/QUOTE] I don't think the solution is very simple. I'm currently in a game design course and we have a group project with 3 guys 2 girls. The 3 of us guys work really well together and we seem to have shifted everything to ourselves. I noticed it and realized it needed to be corrected so I've tried at every opportunity to get the opinions and thoughts of the girls and make the discussion as open as possible, and it partially worked for one of them but the other still seems very outside of the project. There's something deeper going than just us not listening, she's in a game design course yet afraid to talk about game design, and my attempts at making a welcoming atmosphere hardly seem to scratch that. [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] Interestingly enough one discussion we did have was we talked about the sex of our main character and realized none of us actually care at all what it ends up being as it's largely irrelevant, but we all naturally defaulted to our own identity and felt weird about going against what was in our heads. We still have yet to come to an agreement on it actually.

[QUOTE=SilverDragon619;42913963]Feminists are bloody useless and complain about things that don't affect anyone EVER.[/QUOTE] sit through any sociology class ever and you'll most likely disagree with your statement

[QUOTE=person11;42915119]The solution is obvious[/QUOTE] Kill all the Jews!

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42916802]I don't think the solution is very simple. I'm currently in a game design course and we have a group project with 3 guys 2 girls. The 3 of us guys work really well together and we seem to have shifted everything to ourselves. I noticed it and realized it needed to be corrected so I've tried at every opportunity to get the opinions and thoughts of the girls and make the discussion as open as possible, and it partially worked for one of them but the other still seems very outside of the project. There's something deeper going than just us not listening, she's in a game design course yet afraid to talk about game design, and my attempts at making a welcoming atmosphere hardly seem to scratch that. [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] Interestingly enough one discussion we did have was we talked about the sex of our main character and realized none of us actually care at all what it ends up being as it's largely irrelevant, but we all naturally defaulted to our own identity and felt weird about going against what was in our heads. We still have yet to come to an agreement on it actually.[/QUOTE] Could just be her as an individual. I also go a games design course (although it's kind of a rearranged comp-sci that focuses on programming for games, but there is a design approach as well) and overall we're almost 50/50 men/women.

I've heard enough women names tied to AAA games scriptwriting and design to know that the industry doesn't have as much of an issue with parity as other entertainment industries. I can't exactly quote any name right now (same way I can't quote any name for a good male scriptwriter) but there's a lot of making-of/dev diary videos out there where the lead designer or one of the important script writers is a woman.

Yeah, the worst industries are the film and porn industries. Video games are comparatively much better off in terms of diversity and stereotypes. The closest to perfection is probably web content or TV shows (shows like Star Trek are usually the most progressive, etc) [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Venezuelan;42916802]I don't think the solution is very simple. I'm currently in a game design course and we have a group project with 3 guys 2 girls. The 3 of us guys work really well together and we seem to have shifted everything to ourselves. I noticed it and realized it needed to be corrected so I've tried at every opportunity to get the opinions and thoughts of the girls and make the discussion as open as possible, and it partially worked for one of them but the other still seems very outside of the project. There's something deeper going than just us not listening, she's in a game design course yet afraid to talk about game design, and my attempts at making a welcoming atmosphere hardly seem to scratch that. [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] Interestingly enough one discussion we did have was we talked about the sex of our main character and realized none of us actually care at all what it ends up being as it's largely irrelevant, but we all naturally defaulted to our own identity and felt weird about going against what was in our heads. We still have yet to come to an agreement on it actually.[/QUOTE] The solution is obvious but very difficult, yeah. We all want to make what we imagine, and what we imagine most easily is ourselves. When I close my eyes and try to imagine a character for any piece of media I want to make, I imagine a white guy. It is probably a combination of me being a white guy and white guys being the default in society.

Thing is our game has a historical context in which having a female protagonist might harm suspension of disbelief. That's something that bothered me about Bioshock: Infinite, "he we're a super regressive religious society but women fight on our front lines" Can women even serve on the front lines in contemporary America yet? I can't remember but point being it took nearly a century after Infinite's setting It's weird cause it's like racism is past a point where they can tactily portray it as a commentary I suppose but they didn't have the same attitude about sexism

When people use that excuse (not saying you are, but just in general) they generally downplay the roles PoC and women played in historical events. There were lot's of examples a few radical friends of mine dredged up of black people and women playing huge roles in events that were later made into movies with only white men. Tooooo bad I can't think of the examples now. What really gets me is when people use that excuse for fantasy settings somehow? Like we can have elves and dwarves but black people are just so hard to believe right?

She's doing this so wrong. There is a lot of sexism in games yes. No let's not talk about how game characters two decades ago had bows for half an hour. I feel that a different feminist needs to come forward and put together a more well-made video with better arguments on the bigger issues of game sexism and less nitpicky rambling. Considering the quality of what she's done so far, I don't think that'd be a hard task to shoot for.

I honestly don't see why any of this matters. I don't give a shit whether a character was based on a male character. I just want to play the fucking game.

[QUOTE=person11;42919596]When people use that excuse (not saying you are, but just in general) they generally downplay the roles PoC and women played in historical events. There were lot's of examples a few radical friends of mine dredged up of black people and women playing huge roles in events that were later made into movies with only white men. Tooooo bad I can't think of the examples now. What really gets me is when people use that excuse for fantasy settings somehow? Like we can have elves and dwarves but black people are just so hard to believe right?[/QUOTE] yeah it's just ours is based on The Most Dangerous Game and idk it just doesn't feel logical that this high class hunter in the 20s would hunt women because I feel like he'd be all big on the "chivalry" thing even as a sociopathic murderer. It's not that it's impossible or that I'd be totally against it. That's just where I lean on that. It's more interesting if, in the 20s context, the hunter sees the prey as equal to himself, and "worthy", not to say I actually believe women aren't equal, just trying to put myself in his context, as he'd likely be all conservative even for his time and all about like "honor" and horeshit like that. I really do want to avoid confirmation bias in my thoughts so if this doesn't stand to scrutiny feel free to let me know. but yeah fantasy worlds should not be bound by these things at all. If you want to address racism in your fantasy world you just have everyone be racist towards your invented lizard people or w/e

[QUOTE=Karl L;42919730]I honestly don't see why any of this matters. I don't give a shit whether a character was based on a male character. I just want to play the fucking game.[/QUOTE] Have fun being ignorant and tacitly consenting to oppression [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Venezuelan;42919752]yeah it's just ours is based on The Most Dangerous Game and idk it just doesn't feel logical that this high class hunter in the 20s would hunt women because I feel like he'd be all big on the "chivalry" thing even as a sociopathic murderer. It's not that it's impossible or that I'd be totally against it. That's just where I lean on that. It's more interesting if, in the 20s context, the hunter sees the prey as equal to himself, and "worthy", not to say I actually believe women aren't equal, just trying to put myself in his context, as he'd likely be all conservative even for his time and all about like "honor" and horeshit like that. I really do want to avoid confirmation bias in my thoughts so if this doesn't stand to scrutiny feel free to let me know. but yeah fantasy worlds should not be bound by these things at all. If you want to address racism in your fantasy world you just have everyone be racist towards your invented lizard people or w/e[/QUOTE] Yeah, it is not like 100% of all characters in all games need to be women. As long as you have a good reason and not a shitty excuse it's perfectly fine to have a guy be the main character. I'd rather see racism addressed head-on. Making people racist against non humans implies that racism is based on real difference instead of just skintone. Also can we stop thinking that The Elder Scroll's use of race as distributors of stats is okay. "yeah let;s make the redguards stronger but less intelligent SOUNDS GOOD"

[QUOTE=person11;42919872]Have fun being ignorant and tacitly consenting to oppression [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] Yeah, it is not like 100% of all characters in all games need to be women. As long as you have a good reason and not a shitty excuse it's perfectly fine to have a guy be the main character. I'd rather see racism addressed head-on. Making people racist against non humans implies that racism is based on real difference instead of just skintone. Also can we stop thinking that The Elder Scroll's use of race as distributors of stats is okay. "yeah let;s make the redguards stronger but less intelligent SOUNDS GOOD"[/QUOTE] fantasy games have been an excuse to be racist and stereotype people since forever. look at world of warcraft. humans: default people dwarves: scottish drunkards draenei: space gypsy orc: tribal people tauren: native americans trolls: carribean people wow is still better than some games with regards to stereotypes but it still full of them.

and goblins are jews, it makes me so angry it's weird that we take foreign people or non white people and call them different form humans and closer to animals in a way? sorta separates humanity between 'humans' and 'non humans'

you realize there are black imperials and nords in the elder scrolls, right the redguard are not black people any more than bretons are white people And what the fuck are you talking about Goblins are Jews? So any race that does business is Jewish, now? That's not even the Goblin's defining trait, their defining trait is that they're unnaturally mechanically savvy. None of the races are [I]that[/I] cut and dry. And humans are represented as no more "default" than Orcs are. Have you ever even played WoW?

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42919550]Thing is our game has a historical context in which having a female protagonist might harm suspension of disbelief. That's something that bothered me about Bioshock: Infinite, "he we're a super regressive religious society but women fight on our front lines" Can women even serve on the front lines in contemporary America yet? I can't remember but point being it took nearly a century after Infinite's setting It's weird cause it's like racism is past a point where they can tactily portray it as a commentary I suppose but they didn't have the same attitude about sexism[/QUOTE] I think it was because [BIOSHOCK INFINITE SPOILER] [sp]since Comstock wants Elizabeth to follow in his footsteps, it wouldn't be that far off that he'd push towards having more equality in the genders, so that when a female leader finally takes the reins, people will actually be okay with that and take her seriously[/sp]

now you're bringing fucking segregation I mean what the fuck I mean for fucks sake, Imperials are fucking grecian/roman It's insane how upset you can get about something that is complete and utter bullshit

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920278]you realize there are black imperials and nords in the elder scrolls, right the redguard are not black people any more than bretons are white people And what the fuck are you talking about Goblins are Jews? So any race that does business is Jewish, now? That's not even the Goblin's defining trait, their defining trait is that they're unnaturally mechanically savvy. None of the races are [I]that[/I] cut and dry. And humans are represented as no more "default" than Orcs are. Have you ever even played WoW?[/QUOTE] no he's right about the goblin/jew thing. [img]http://www.jewornotjew.com/img/people/g/goblins_(warcraft).jpg[/img] [img]http://volkundvaterland.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/jew.gif[/img] the goblins are like a caricature of "stereotypical jews" in a fantasy setting. i've played wow since tbc. [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] and the defining trait of goblins isn't their mechanical skills. their defining trait is that they are a race of creatures who care about money above everything else. they go around exploiting, banking, creating big business all in the name of gold.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920316]no he's right about the goblin/jew thing. [img]http://www.jewornotjew.com/img/people/g/goblins_(warcraft).jpg[/img] [img]http://volkundvaterland.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/jew.gif[/img] the goblins are like a caricature of "stereotypical jews" in a fantasy setting. i've played wow since tbc.[/QUOTE] Goblins have also existed for hundreds of years and almost all modern depictions of them have big noses are you seriously saying that everything that has a big nose is jewish because if that irony doesn't reach you I swear to fuck that nothing will

[QUOTE=Mr. Jelly;42920297]I think it was because [BIOSHOCK INFINITE SPOILER] [sp]since Comstock wants Elizabeth to follow in his footsteps, it wouldn't be that far off that he'd push towards having more equality in the genders, so that when a female leader finally takes the reins, people will actually be okay with that and take her seriously[/sp][/QUOTE] wasn't that just fanon? or was that official I forget.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920316]and the defining trait of goblins isn't their mechanical skills. their defining trait is that they are a race of creatures who care about money above everything else. they go around exploiting, banking, creating big business all in the name of gold.[/QUOTE] No, they don't run all of the banks in WoW. They run all of the fucking zeppelins. Because they're fucking mechanics. Now, the consortium? There's a race of bankers who do nothing but deal in money. But they're all wispy ethereal people and they don't have big noses so I guess they're not jews right?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920343]Goblins have also existed for hundreds of years and almost all modern depictions of them have big noses[/QUOTE] it's not necessary. it's not a defining characteristic. if you see this you still know it's a goblin: [IMG]http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Goblin.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42920385]it's not necessary. it's not a defining characteristic. if you see this you still know it's a goblin: [IMG]http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Goblin.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] Yes, but it's totally the defining characteristic of what the WoW goblins(and tons of other stuff) were copied from. [thumb]http://www.mangapolis.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/GShaman09.jpg[/thumb] And guess what. Warhammer Goblins? Defined by their mechanical savvy and cunning. and to be honest that looks more like a gremlin

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920356]No, they don't run all of the banks in WoW. They run all of the fucking zeppelins. Because they're fucking mechanics. [/QUOTE] gnomes are the ones known for their mechanical shit. goblins are known for their love of money. have you played wow? i suggest you go create a goblin right now in wow and go through the starter zone, and read the text. they are obviously a caricature.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920404]Yes, but it's totally the defining characteristic of what the WoW goblins(and tons of other stuff) were copied from.[/QUOTE] what were they copied from? also gremlins hardly have a codified appearance, they have pretty much the movie where they look like that, other depictions have ranged to shit like this: [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Gremlins_love_to_pitch_things_at_your_eyes._Wear_safety_goggles._Back_up_our_battleskies%5E_-_NARA_-_535379.jpg[/t] come to think of it the gremlins in Gremlins even acted more like goblins.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920444]gnomes are the ones known for their mechanical shit. goblins are known for their love of money. have you played wow? i suggest you go create a goblin right now in wow and go through the starter zone, and read the text. they are obviously a caricature.[/QUOTE] I really don't know what to say. Goblins run the zeppelins, and the moon base, and the drag strip, and they make nearly all of the machines for the Horde, but now they can't be the mechanical guys because gnomes are? Like that's a position that can be filled and can't overlap? Are you joking?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920500]I really don't know what to say. Goblins run the zeppelins, and the moon base, and the drag strip, and they make nearly all of the machines for the Horde, but now they can't be the mechanical guys because gnomes are? Like that's a position that can be filled and can't overlap? Are you joking?[/QUOTE] go play the goblin starter zone.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42920457]what were they copied from? also gremlins hardly have a codified appearance, they have pretty much the movie where they look like that, other depictions have ranged to shit like this: [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Gremlins_love_to_pitch_things_at_your_eyes._Wear_safety_goggles._Back_up_our_battleskies%5E_-_NARA_-_535379.jpg[/t] come to think of it the gremlins in Gremlins even acted more like goblins.[/QUOTE] I uh, I posted an image of a Warhammer goblin. Because Goblins in Warcraft are kinda derivative of goblins in Warhammer. Fancy that, huh?

[QUOTE=Karl L;42919730]I honestly don't see why any of this matters. I don't give a shit whether a character was based on a male character. I just want to play the fucking game.[/QUOTE] If you're going to critique a game artistically, then you need to look beyond "I just wanna play the damned thing."