Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920506]go play the goblin starter zone.[/QUOTE] I have. They aren't Jews. You know speaking of the starter zone [thumb]http://www.toomuchzerging.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/kezan.jpg[/thumb] totally not mechanics man don't know what you're talking about that's crazy

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920511]I uh, I posted an image of a Warhammer goblin. Because Goblins in Warcraft are kinda derivative of goblins in Warhammer. Fancy that, huh?[/QUOTE] sorry I don't play any of these games so I didn't recognize it

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920039]fantasy games have been an excuse to be racist and stereotype people since forever. look at world of warcraft. humans: default people dwarves: scottish drunkards draenei: space gypsy orc: tribal people tauren: native americans trolls: carribean people wow is still better than some games with regards to stereotypes but it still full of them.[/QUOTE] But just because they represent a culture does that mean that it's racist? I mean cultures do exist after all, and I am almost certain (Although I have not played WoW in years so I could be wrong) that their are characters of certain races who mingle with other races as people of different cultures in the real world do. I see them as less of races like Black/White but rather I saw it as just different cultures like English/Chinese/Indian sort of thing.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920550]I have. They aren't Jews. You know speaking of the starter zone [thumb]http://www.toomuchzerging.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/kezan.jpg[/thumb] totally not mechanics man don't know what you're talking about that's crazy[/QUOTE] hey dude go fucking play the goblin starter zone: [quote]I've failed! I tried to meet our Kaja'Cola quotas, but you know troll slaves these days. Good help is hard to find! I think your personal touch is called for. A shock from the battery on your Goblin All-In-1-Der Belt should do the trick. Adjust their attitudes and the rest will fall in line. Kaja'Cola production must continue or the Trade Prince will have all of our heads! [/quote] [quote]With all of the troubles down in the Kaja'mine, Foreman Dampwick's been going crazy trying to find you. He said something about some 'defiant trolls'. The kaja'mite that our trolls are mining is critical ingredient in Kaja'Cola. That bubbly stuff is making us a fortune, and it's going to get you a promotion to Trade <Prince/Princess>! But first, we have to get production flowing again. You'll find the foreman to the east. Here, give him this as an incentive to get his act together. [/quote] [quote]We've got trouble down in the Kaja'mine again, boss. The tunneling worms have returned and they're literally eating away at the Kajaro Trading Company's profits! Kaja'mite mining is down, which is negatively impacting our production of Kaja'Cola! I tried calling the exterminator, but he's fled with the last payment we made to him. Do you think you could head into the three mines and take care of it? I'd help but I still haven't attended the cartel-mandated fighter training seminar. [/quote] [quote]We need to send a message to several deadbeats. Of course, they're hiding out in Drudgetown, the scum. I know how you hate going into the slums, boss-<man/lady>, but what can we do? <Sassy rifles through some paperwork.> I have all of the names right here. Might I suggest a little 'personal visit'? A couple of strategic beatdowns will send a message to the other debtors AND your competition. <name> is not a goblin to be trifled with! [/quote] [quote]You're an extremely ambitious young goblin, <name>. Maybe a little too ambitious for your own good. I see a lot of myself in you when I was your age. I have a proposition. You might have noticed that Mount Kajaro is exploding thanks to your dragon. Everyone on Kezan is going to die! But, if you bring me a bazillion macaroons before my yacht leaves the island, I'll make sure that you're one of the lucky few to escape. If you want to live, you better hurry and figure out how to get me my moolah! [/quote] yes these are a race of people defined by their love for mechanics and invention....nope not obsessed with money at all

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920278]you realize there are black imperials and nords in the elder scrolls, right the redguard are not black people any more than bretons are white people And what the fuck are you talking about Goblins are Jews? So any race that does business is Jewish, now? That's not even the Goblin's defining trait, their defining trait is that they're unnaturally mechanically savvy. None of the races are [I]that[/I] cut and dry. And humans are represented as no more "default" than Orcs are. Have you ever even played WoW?[/QUOTE] Good point, though the extremes of the customization do not belie their presence with a specific skin tone throughout the game world. Redguards were represented as being barely different from the rest besides being black and not as advanced in Oblivion, and then they became some sort of Moorish stereotype in Skyrim? Arabs are cat people now? And yes, I used to play wow all the time and I never saw what was wrong with it until my older sister (a wow veteran as well) pointed out how many classic jewish stereotypes are played out in WoW's goblins. It disturbs me greatly as a Jew. Also the humans in every fantasy game are usually boring "oh yeah they are jack of all trades master of none" generic classes because the race of humans, even with different skin tones, always represent traditional western culture. Other cultures are given over to other human like creatures. It's problematic.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920762]hey dude go fucking play the goblin starter zone: yes these are a race of people defined by their love for mechanics and invention....nope not obsessed with money at all[/QUOTE] How is any of that in any way even tangentially related to the jews?

I love how this thread turned from feminism discussion to goblin jews.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920801]How is any of that in any way even tangentially related to the jews?[/QUOTE] how is any of that in any way even tangentially related to mechanics?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920762]hey dude go fucking play the goblin starter zone: yes these are a race of people defined by their love for mechanics and invention....nope not obsessed with money at all[/QUOTE] I feel like they are a parody of rich business men rather than jews...

Money obsessed stereotypes have been used by anti-semites since the Medieval age [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Fausty;42920816]I love how this thread turned from feminism discussion to goblin jews.[/QUOTE] It is really easy to transition because non white people have been shafted just as much as women in video games and lot's of other kinds of media.

god everyone just shut up and fucking just have fun playing video games jesus

This escalated quicker than the Zimmerman thread in the sh.

[QUOTE=omarfr;42920824]I feel like they are a parody of rich business men rather than jews...[/QUOTE] o rly and what have been people being saying the jews are since the medieval times? "money grubbing bankers and businessmen"

Especially women of color. I love those Rochelle stereotypes sooooo much [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Clovernoodle;42920835]god everyone just shut up and fucking just have fun playing video games jesus[/QUOTE] You are part of the problem, and will be until you wise up and decide to stand up for something good.

[QUOTE=person11;42920775]Good point, though the extremes of the customization do not belie their presence with a specific skin tone throughout the game world. Redguards were represented as being barely different from the rest besides being black and not as advanced in Oblivion, and then they became some sort of Moorish stereotype in Skyrim? Arabs are cat people now? And yes, I used to play wow all the time and I never saw what was wrong with it until my older sister (a wow veteran as well) pointed out how many classic jewish stereotypes are played out in WoW's goblins. It disturbs me greatly as a Jew. Also the humans in every fantasy game are usually boring "oh yeah they are jack of all trades master of none" generic classes because the race of humans, even with different skin tones, always represent traditional western culture. Other cultures are given over to other human like creatures. It's problematic.[/QUOTE] no, the khajiit are like people cats that change form based on which phase of the moon they were born under and they live on top of ancient ruins and I'd rather describe the fifth dimension than Elder Scrolls lore There are going to be creatures in fantasy that are greedy. There are going to be creatures that have big noses. There are going to be creatures that commit more crime and are dumber than other creatures. There are going to be creatures that are smarter than other creatures. If creatures and races weren't different from each other then the world would be boring. There aren't greedy Goblins because the writers have some subconscious hatred for the Jews, it's because making fun of capitalism is fun.

[QUOTE=person11;42920840]Especially women of color. I love those Rochelle stereotypes sooooo much [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] You are part of the problem, and will be until you wise up and decide to stand up for something good.[/QUOTE] Shut the fuck up you stupid ignorant cunt. The "sexist" signifiers in games were used because of graphical limitations. Nowadays it's a joke, getting all pissy over it isn't going to help. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=person11;42920826]Money obsessed stereotypes have been used by anti-semites since the Medieval age [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] It is really easy to transition because non white people have been shafted just as much as women in video games and lot's of other kinds of media.[/QUOTE] So we can't have greedy races in fiction now. Because the anti-semites think Jews are greedy. [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=person11;42920840]Especially women of color. I love those Rochelle stereotypes sooooo much [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] You are part of the problem, and will be until you wise up and decide to stand up for something good.[/QUOTE] And what, you're a part of the solution? Sitting on an internet forum calling everything and everyone you can think of sexist and racist without ever substantiating anything?

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920859]no, the khajiit are like people cats that change form based on which phase of the moon they were born under and they live on top of ancient ruins and I'd rather describe the fifth dimension than Elder Scrolls lore There are going to be creatures in fantasy that are greedy. There are going to be creatures that have big noses. There are going to be creatures that commit more crime and are dumber than other creatures. There are going to be creatures that are smarter than other creatures. If creatures and races weren't different from each other then the world would be boring. There aren't greedy Goblins because the writers have some subconscious hatred for the Jews, it's because making fun of capitalism is fun.[/QUOTE] Most people who hated Jews did so by making fun of their wealth and their position on top of an unequal capitalist society, despite the best leftists and anti-Capitalists always being Jews. Also the liberal use of accents and tropes of Arab people and culture in the cat people could easily be seen as offensive. You cannot defend it purely based on the lore of the game. Everything we make has context within our culture and has real life implications in our society. You cannot make and release a video game in the void and you cannot play a video game without internalizing some of it (unless you become super well aware of every possible trope theoretically). You can't hide behind the fiction of video games and you can't say "they are just video games" or "shut up and let me enjoy my game" [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Fausty;42920869]Shut the fuck up you stupid ignorant cunt. The "sexist" signifiers in games were used because of graphical limitations. Nowadays it's a joke, getting all pissy over it isn't going to help.[/QUOTE] Good use of the word cunt there. Makes you totally credible. Can we not use gendered insults? Anyway those graphical limitations being gone should have made things better?? But things are still terrible? Maybe the graphical limitations had something to do with it at the beginning, but the better the graphics were, the better the boob physics and the smaller the outfits for women got.

I dunno, goblins were introduced in Warcraft 2 as Zeppelin drivers and explosive maniacs. They only started being businessmen in Warcraft 3, and even then their major focus was on technological devices and explosives (the difference between them and gnomes IIRC is gnomes are more well balanced and aren't as obsessed with blowing things up). I haven't played WoW, though, so I don't know what they're like now. They were always my favourite race, though. :|

[QUOTE=person11;42920917] You can't hide behind the fiction of video games and you can't say "they are just video games" or "shut up and let me enjoy my game"[/QUOTE] shut up and let me enjoy my game

[QUOTE=Tweevle;42920949]I dunno, goblins were introduced in Warcraft 2 as Zeppelin drivers and explosive maniacs. They only started being businessmen in Warcraft 3, and even then their major focus was on technological devices and explosives (the difference between them and gnomes IIRC is gnomes are more well balanced and aren't as obsessed with blowing things up). I haven't played WoW, so I don't know what they're like now.[/QUOTE] in warcraft 1&2 the orcs were a race of savage evil beings that just liked killing stuff. the whole story was pretty much changed and fleshed out in wc3 and wow.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920879]So we can't have greedy races in fiction now. Because the anti-semites think Jews are greedy. [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] And what, you're a part of the solution? Sitting on an internet forum calling everything and everyone you can think of sexist and racist without ever substantiating anything?[/QUOTE] How about having greediness not be determined by race or stereotypes in video games or other stories? We have to use stereotypes in fiction because we unfairly assign them in real life too? Or make a greedy group of people and make them not employ Jewish stereotypical stuff. It is not just the greediness, but a lot of other stuff in terms of how they look and act. And yeah I am not really helping arguing on a forum. My trying to convince others what is true could help in a small way if I actually ever convinced anybody on this forum ever (probably never have). I am not exactly part of the solution but I am no longer part of the problem. I am not purposefully stewing in ignorance or being a bigot anymore, and I do my best to know as much as possible about the issue and point things out when necessary.

[QUOTE=person11;42920917]Most people who hated Jews did so by making fun of their wealth and their position on top of an unequal capitalist society, despite the best leftists and anti-Capitalists always being Jews. Also the liberal use of accents and tropes of Arab people and culture in the cat people could easily be seen as offensive. You cannot defend it purely based on the lore of the game. Everything we make has context within our culture and has real life implications in our society. You cannot make and release a video game in the void and you cannot play a video game without internalizing some of it (unless you become super well aware of every possible trope theoretically). You can't hide behind the fiction of video games and you can't say "they are just video games" or "shut up and let me enjoy my game"[/QUOTE] the fucking khajiit aren't arabic they're literally human cats they eat catnip and get high and hunt mice and collect shiny things because THEY'RE CATS Every single position you people are arguing from you got to backwards. You're starting with assumptions about what each and every little thing is supposed to represent and then you come up with reasons for why it's racist against that culture that you and only you say it represents. This is why no one listens to you. Because you always, always assume that you're right and that everyone who disagrees with you is morally inferior, and if they try and argue with you they're just trying to justify their sexism or racism. You're completely and totally insular in your thinking in that you refuse to even think that any view on any given work of fiction besides your own could ever be right, because you're the moral crusader bringing enlightenment to a dark world. No one is ever going to listen to you because you don't want people to listen to you. You just want to always have the moral high ground in every discussion you ever have so that you can elevate yourself above all the people around you, and you've found a convenient and easily applied lense of critique that lets you do it.

oh boy another anita thread after browsing these 8 pages thus far, the usual anita apologists haven't attempted to rebut any of the points made by the people in this thread, they just go "WOW SEXISM IS AN ISSUE!!!!" and totally sidestep the points raised - not to mention spam rating dumb on any opinion that in any way opposes the Dear Leader* Anita

[QUOTE=Elspin;42906036]but the fact that the game is not sold that way is a great thing.[/QUOTE] It's kind of funny to think about this considering when Todd Howard took over TES the first one he made was Daggerfall, which had out of the box female nudity if you removed the starting clothes. Males had no visible penises though, it was just a brownish-black vortex of nothingness.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920879]So we can't have greedy races in fiction now. Because the anti-semites think Jews are greedy.[/QUOTE] why do you want whole races to have defining personality characteristics anyway that's just such lazy storytelling

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42921010]why do you want whole races to have defining personality characteristics anyway that's just such lazy storytelling[/QUOTE] I don't, and they don't, and it is sometimes. Sometimes when a fantasy race exists solely for comedic effect being simple is fine. See Warhammer Orks. But then the Orks are british and brutish and cockney and are most definitely poor british people and as such are offensive poor british stereotypes so fuck if I know.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920963]in warcraft 1&2 the orcs were a race of savage evil beings that just liked killing stuff. the whole story was pretty much changed and fleshed out in wc3 and wow.[/QUOTE] True, but the goblins didn't really change much in WC3 other than becoming mercenaries. I think if it was just the money thing I'd probably agree, but there's more to goblins than that, that doesn't really have anything to do with Jewish stereotypes afaik. Or maybe I'm totally biased because I love goblins. :v:

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920984]the fucking khajiit aren't arabic they're literally human cats they eat catnip and get high and hunt mice and collect shiny things because THEY'RE CATS Every single position you people are arguing from you got to backwards. You're starting with assumptions about what each and every little thing is supposed to represent and then you come up with reasons for why it's racist against that culture that you and only you say it represents. This is why no one listens to you. Because you always, always assume that you're right and that everyone who disagrees with you is morally inferior, and if they try and argue with you they're just trying to justify their sexism or racism. You're completely and totally insular in your thinking in that you refuse to even think that any view on any given work of fiction besides your own could ever be right, because you're the moral crusader bringing enlightenment to a dark world. No one is ever going to listen to you because you don't want people to listen to you. You just want to always have the moral high ground in every discussion you ever have so that you can elevate yourself above all the people around you, and you've found a convenient and easily applied lense of critique that lets you do it.[/QUOTE] See that would be a great criticism of me except you are litterally blinding yourself to the massive amount of iconography and tropes used on the Khajit in the game. I am aware they are cat people in a fictional game. They also are given tropes from a real life culture and they may possibly have implications on how people view that culture in real life. It really is not an assumption. I am using my eyes and education to see what is in front of me and make rational deductions about those things. I'd say you are assuming that they are just cat people and therefore can't be, or represent, anything at all in real life because they are cat people in a video game. That is incredibly naive. Sorry to call your view naive, I do not like insulting people (I really do not consider myself intelligent or better than anyone), but you really have to take a look at what each race in these video games represent, and not just use the lore of the game or their position in the fictional world. [editline]19th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Clovernoodle;42920962]shut up and let me enjoy my game[/QUOTE] Enjoy hiding and enjoy being complicit.

Jesus this thread grew quick.