Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=person11;42921107]See that would be a great criticism of me except you are litterally blinding yourself to the massive amount of iconography and tropes used on the Khajit in the game. I am aware they are cat people in a fictional game. They also are given tropes from a real life culture and they may possibly have implications on how people view that culture in real life. It really is not an assumption. I am using my eyes and education to see what is in front of me and make rational deductions about those things. I'd say you are assuming that they are just cat people and therefore can't be, or represent, anything at all in real life because they are cat people in a video game. That is incredibly naive. Sorry to call your view naive, I do not like insulting people (I really do not consider myself intelligent or better than anyone), but you really have to take a look at what each race in these video games represent, and not just use the lore of the game or their position in the fictional world.[/QUOTE]

See, but that's the thing. I'm not. I'm approaching this as a consumer and an artist. I call the Khajiit people cats because they are people cats, and they do the things one would expect people cats to do, and if I were writing people cats I would probably go about it the same way because that is how cats act and by extension probably how people cats would act.

See, the main thing, the crux you are completely missing, is that even [I]if[/I](and that is a big if) fiction just automatically overwrites your own opinions just by you consuming it, even then, it doesn't mean anything if the people consuming the content don't connect it to real life.

Assuming that content, again, just overwrites people's opinions, people still need to make the leap from fiction to reality. If I write a race of people cats that have arabic things attached to them, like their accent or their clothing, the person reading has to go in their mind, "These are people cats. I see they have some Arabic things. I think the people cats are Arabs. Arabs are cat people. Arabs get high and collect shiny things."

It's no different with Goblins. Unless you look at this

[thumb]http://blog.advising.ttu.edu/wp-content/uploads/silvermoon-goblin.jpg[/thumb]

And actually grok that they are in fact supposed to be Jews, you aren't going to change your opinion of Jews. Because there's no bridge between fiction and reality. Without that bridge, then it could just as easily impact your opinion of short people, or people with big ears, or people who wear monocles.

[person12]

Are you saying there is no bridge from fiction to reality? That people do not change their views of reality because of fiction?

[editline]19th November 2013[/editline]

I'm just curious

[yawmwen]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42920984]
Every single position you people are arguing from you got to backwards. You're starting with assumptions about what each and every little thing is supposed to represent and then you come up with reasons for why it's racist against that culture that you and only you say it represents.
[/QUOTE]

ok yea this doesn't represent native americans.

[img]http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/game_wallpapers/world_of_warcraft/thunder_bluff.jpg[/img]

i saw how races were stereotypes of people in other cultures before i was a fucking teenager dude it doesn't take much to see something so simple and obvious.

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=person11;42921198]Are you saying there is no bridge from fiction to reality? That people do not change their views of reality because of fiction?

[editline]19th November 2013[/editline]

I'm just curious[/QUOTE]

If I'm playing cops and robbers with my friend Steve, with my friend Steve as the cop and me as the robber, I'm not going to assume cops are assholes because Steve punches me in the face. Steve is playing a role in a fantasy game with no ties to actual cops or robbers. If I already think cops are assholes, I might subconsciously murmur "that's just what a cop would do", but that irrelevant to the game. That is a prior opinion almost assuredly built from personal experiences in real life.

This applies to any author/viewer relationship. If we couldn't tell the difference between reality and fantasy, we would have a lot more problems than sexism and racism.

[person12]

So you think problems involving sexism or racism are not caused or reinforced by stereotypes in fictional media?

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42921214]ok yea this doesn't represent native americans.

[thumb]http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/game_wallpapers/world_of_warcraft/thunder_bluff.jpg[/thumb]

i saw how races were stereotypes of people in other cultures before i was a fucking teenager dude it doesn't take much to see something so simple and obvious.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the tauren culture is totally based on native american culture.

[editline]20th November 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=person11;42921237]So you think problems involving sexism or racism are not caused or reinforced by stereotypes in fictional media?[/QUOTE]

Racist or sexist views aren't birthed by racist and sexist media. Whether or not fiction can reinforce already existing beliefs is a matter of debate. Its effect in that regard is however most certainly many orders of magnitude below almost any other societal factor, from peers to family to culture.

[omarfr]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42921214]ok yea this doesn't represent native americans.

i saw how races were stereotypes of people in other cultures before i was a fucking teenager dude it doesn't take much to see something so simple and obvious.[/QUOTE]

My only problem with this argument is that in society there are cultures and although we are all individual people where we grow up and what our cultures values are definitely effect the behaviors of its people. Maybe I'm just not seeing it but I don't understand how make a certain race have a similar culture to a real world culture is racist. Drawing influences from real world culture makes your characters more believable.

I'm trying to see the other side though. Is it because these characters are represented with a specific personality types along with their culture? Or because they might be seen as comparing for example Native americans to Minotaurs? Or whatever the fuck they were called.

[yawmwen]

[QUOTE=omarfr;42921296]My only problem with this argument is that in society there are cultures and although we are all individual people where we grow up and what our cultures values are definitely effect the behaviors of its people. Maybe I'm just not seeing it but I don't understand how make a certain race have a similar culture to a real world culture is racist. Drawing influences from real world culture makes your characters more believable.

I'm trying to see the other side though. Is it because these characters are represented with a specific personality types along with their culture? Or because they might be seen as comparing for example Native americans to Minotaurs? Or whatever the fuck they were called.[/QUOTE]

it's because it creates an idea that western culture is "normal" or "default"(as seen by the western culture of the humans), and sets a standard that all other races and cultures are compared to.

[omarfr]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42921335]it's because it creates an idea that western culture is "normal" or "default"(as seen by the western culture of the humans), and sets a standard that all other races and cultures are compared to.[/QUOTE]

Right! That makes more sense, yeah it is kind of strange that humans are always represented as western culture. I suppose it is because Fantasy games are best off of Medieval Europe but I always thought it was strange that there were just humans and not Humans with various different cultures like it s in the real world.

[moop900]

[B]DING DING DING DING![/B]

Going on ten pages of angry rants and ravings.
Fighters to your corner, Grab your selves some mountain dew and and a hand full of doritos!

alll right, Rest is over.

Fight!
[B]DING DING![/B]

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42921335]it's because it creates an idea that western culture is "normal" or "default"(as seen by the western culture of the humans), and sets a standard that all other races and cultures are compared to.[/QUOTE]

In a fantasy world where humans were created by star gods and fight aliens on a continent of panda people, what is "normal" and "default"?

[editline]20th November 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=omarfr;42921381]Right! That makes more sense, yeah it is kind of strange that humans are always represented as western culture. I suppose it is because Fantasy games are best off of Medieval Europe but I always thought it was strange that there were just humans and not Humans with various different cultures like it s in the real world.[/QUOTE]

the reason that the humans in warcraft are knights on horses is because warcraft was a scrapped warhammer game and in warhammer the humans are knights on horses

The Elder Scrolls series a good example of a world without any "western" culture besides the nords I guess. I mean Oblivion had it in spades but that game shat all over the Imperials so w/e

[Ganerumo]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42920039]fantasy games have been an excuse to be racist and stereotype people since forever.

look at world of warcraft.
humans: default people
dwarves: scottish drunkards
draenei: space gypsy
orc: tribal people
tauren: native americans
trolls: carribean people

wow is still better than some games with regards to stereotypes but it still full of them.[/QUOTE]

You want a better example ? The Elder Scrolls has a built-in separate race for black people. And, no, there is no such thing as a black imperial or breton or whatever. The editor won't let you (except in Oblivion but that's because the editor was utterly fucked, you could just fuck around with the settings until an imperial's skin got a blackish red tint).

Race as a gameplay mechanic has always been there in RPGs and frankly it's not really that shocking, it's fantasy, when a dwarf is put in a separate class with its own stats it's not to promote discrimination, it's just because it makes for a decent gameplay mechanic.

Wow how did we get from Anita Sarkeesian to goblins and racism

[yawmwen]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42921396]In a fantasy world where humans were created by star gods and fight aliens on a continent of panda people, what is "normal" and "default"?
[/QUOTE]

humans i guess.

[QUOTE=omarfr;42921381]Right! That makes more sense, yeah it is kind of strange that humans are always represented as western culture. I suppose it is because Fantasy games are best off of Medieval Europe but I always thought it was strange that there were just humans and not Humans with various different cultures like it s in the real world.[/QUOTE]

all the criticism of races in elder scrolls aside, morrowind was fucking AWESOME because it wasn't a medieval europe setting. you know how fucking cool it was for a fantasy game to take place on an island full of swamps, mushroom trees, giant bug houses, and very exotic architecture that wasn't incredibly obviously based on a human culture? that shit was immersive. i didn't feel like i was going into a nordic fairy tale, i didn't go to the middle of medieval europe for the 100th time, i went to an alien world.

why can't we do more of that? why can't we drop this generic fantasy bullshit and have games that create worlds that are actually new and interesting?

[Ganerumo]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42921396]The Elder Scrolls series a good example of a world without any "western" culture besides the nords I guess. I mean Oblivion had it in spades but that game shat all over the Imperials so w/e[/QUOTE]

What ? Imperials are copied on the roman empire and Bretons are, well, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton]Bretons[/url].

Humans are from Europe, Elves are from Asia, Beast races are from Africa.

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;42921503]What ? Imperials are copied on the roman empire and Bretons are, well, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton]Bretons[/url].

Humans are from Europe, Elves are from Asia, Beast races are from Africa.[/QUOTE]

wood elves are forest cannibals who can talk to animals, argonians are a hive mind controlled by swamp trees, bretons are half dragon, dark elves are kind of a race all their own, redguard are from fantasy middle east, imperials and nords are from atmora which is controlled by psychic gorillas

What I'm saying is that in the actual lore you don't have much in the way of traditional mounted knights and king arthur fetishism

what I'm really saying is that the world of morrowind is really amazingly deep and intricate and cool

[Winters]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42921500]why can't we do more of that? why can't we drop this generic fantasy bullshit and have games that create worlds that are actually new and interesting?[/QUOTE]

It also doesn't help that a lot of the newer Elder scroll games do jack all to expand the world that they exist in. You can have a game set in standard dark fantasy Europe and still be interesting because it's writing is interesting and emersive. See The Witcher 2 (Beyond the Sex Scenes). It feels like a living breathing world. Also an interesting note that The Witcher 2 is one of the first games I've played to portray humans as the actual biggest asshole race in the game, being basically racist against everyone and committing Genocide every other day. Of course the elves and stuff are still charactures but they're like portrayed as proud and intelligent enough to know they've got it shitty most of the time.

[yawmwen]

[QUOTE=Winters;42921588]It also doesn't help that a lot of the newer Elder scroll games do jack all to expand the world that they exist in. You can have a game set in standard dark fantasy Europe and still be interesting because it's writing is interesting and emersive. See The Witcher 2 (Beyond the Sex Scenes). It feels like a living breathing world. Also an interesting note that The Witcher 2 is one of the first games I've played to portray humans as the actual biggest asshole race in the game, being basically racist against everyone and committing Genocide every other day.[/QUOTE]

i haven't played witcher 2. generally i look at rpg games nowadays and say "does this look like a generic medieval setting"? if that question is answered yes then i just sorta forget about it.

but if it's a good game maybe i'll have to try it.

[Winters]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42921638]i haven't played witcher 2. generally i look at rpg games nowadays and say "does this look like a generic medieval setting"? if that question is answered yes then i just sorta forget about it.

but if it's a good game maybe i'll have to try it.[/QUOTE]

It's got some really tacked on sex scenes but it's actually a really good game that's actually challenging. Writing is fairly solid too.

[Mr. Scorpio]

[QUOTE=Winters;42921648]It's got some really tacked on sex scenes but it's actually a really good game that's actually challenging. Writing is fairly solid too.[/QUOTE]

You know this is a non starter since it's probably going to be labeled sexist anyway, right.

[Ganerumo]

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42921557]wood elves are forest cannibals who can talk to animals, argonians are a hive mind controlled by swamp trees, bretons are half dragon, dark elves are kind of a race all their own, redguard are from fantasy middle east, imperials and nords are from atmora which is controlled by psychic gorillas

What I'm saying is that in the actual lore you don't have much in the way of traditional mounted knights and king arthur fetishism

what I'm really saying is that the world of morrowind is really amazingly deep and intricate and cool[/QUOTE]

Oh it is, but most of the races were directly inspired by existing cultures in a way or another.

Like how the Akavir are pretty much feudal Japan and everyone sort of got inspired by them on some level.

Also Bretons aren't half dragons, they are half elves. Nords/Imperials (which are pretty much the same race only living in two different countries) are the closest thing to half-dragons you'll find and even then it's literally one in a billion.

[Makrin]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;42921460]You want a better example ? The Elder Scrolls has a built-in separate race for black people. And, no, there is no such thing as a black imperial or breton or whatever. The editor won't let you (except in Oblivion but that's because the editor was utterly fucked, you could just fuck around with the settings until an imperial's skin got a blackish red tint).

Race as a gameplay mechanic has always been there in RPGs and frankly it's not really that shocking, it's fantasy, when a dwarf is put in a separate class with its own stats it's not to promote discrimination, it's just because it makes for a decent gameplay mechanic.

Wow how did we get from Anita Sarkeesian to goblins and racism[/QUOTE]

I think it's worth pointing out that in the Elder Scrolls, nobody ever fucks with the black people. The high elves were the only ones who tried and their invasion ended with the deaths of their generals and the routing of their forces. They might be stereotypically middle-eastern, but nobody even says anything bad about the Redguards.

[milkandcooki]

[QUOTE=Pelican;42920988]oh boy another anita thread

after browsing these 8 pages thus far, the usual anita apologists haven't attempted to rebut any of the points made by the people in this thread, they just go "WOW SEXISM IS AN ISSUE!!!!" and totally sidestep the points raised - not to mention spam rating dumb on any opinion that in any way opposes the Dear Leader* Anita[/QUOTE]

mostly because people against anita have pretty much no points at all

"sexism isn't an issue in videogames"

"yes it is"

"omfg stop avoiding my points!"

^ that's how it usually goes.

[Mr. Scorpio]

Okay, Planescape. There's a game with no default.

[Pelican]

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42921747]mostly because people against anita have pretty much no points at all

"sexism isn't an issue in videogames"

"yes it is"

"omfg stop avoiding my points!"

^ that's how it usually goes.[/QUOTE]

my point is proven right here

what you don't get is that the points anita makes about the games she 'reviews' are, as like everyone has said before, nitpicked - and for some reason you seems to say GOD YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT I AM SO DONE WITH THIS SITE, the issue isn't the fact that people are denying that there's sexism, the issue is that the way in which anita sardickian portrays it is stupid, yet you still seem to justify it by saying "muh sexism still exists"

[Eila]

[QUOTE=Pelican;42921832]anita sardickian[/QUOTE]

You should probably feel bad for saying that, because it was so unbelievably immature I'm sure pre-schoolers would find it unfunny.

[Pelican]

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;42921932]You should probably feel bad for saying that, because it was so unbelievably immature I'm sure pre-schoolers would find it unfunny.[/QUOTE]

you should feel bad for defending anita sarplebeian

[Ganerumo]

[QUOTE=Ekalektik_1;42921743]I think it's worth pointing out that in the Elder Scrolls, nobody ever fucks with the black people. The high elves were the only ones who tried and their invasion ended with the deaths of their generals and the routing of their forces. They might be stereotypically middle-eastern, but nobody even says anything bad about the Redguards.[/QUOTE]

In Skyrim after the Aldmeri dominion showed up and started fucking up everything the Redguards manned up in Hammerfell and resisted the invasion until hell broke loose when some random bitch sold the Thalmor in.

Not to mention that the blades used to be almost entirely composed of Redguards (even in Oblivion a majority of blades are redguards) because they are really fucking good fighters.

[editline]20th November 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=Pelican;42921832]my point is proven right here

what you don't get is that the points anita makes about the games she 'reviews' are, as like everyone has said before, nitpicked - and for some reason you seems to say GOD YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT I AM SO DONE WITH THIS SITE, the issue isn't the fact that people are denying that there's sexism, the issue is that the way in which anita sardickian portrays it is stupid, yet you still seem to justify it by saying "muh sexism still exists"[/QUOTE]

What the fuck is your point even

Like I'm legitimately confused by what the fuck you're trying to accomplish.

[Eila]

[QUOTE=Pelican;42921943]you should feel bad for defending anita sarplebeian[/QUOTE]

I don't entirely like what she does, but I think if she is causing discussion on feminism then it's a good thing.

And I always see you hunt down threads like these, make like 1 or 2 idiotic posts, then you just leave when people point out how stupid what you are saying is.

Can it be that time please?

[thisispain]

[QUOTE=Pelican;42921943]you should feel bad for defending anita sarplebeian[/QUOTE]

[img]http://ak9.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1017235/preview/stock-footage-annoyed-guy-calculating-bills-on-the-laptop.jpg[/img]

[img]http://ak0.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/1037674/preview/stock-footage-tired-man-on-his-laptop-while-his-family-is-on-the-sofa.jpg[/img]

[img]http://us.123rf.com/450wm/imtmphoto/imtmphoto1302/imtmphoto130200009/17975001-asian-businesswoman-sitting-and-thinking-in-office-looking-tired.jpg[/img]

[img]http://static5.depositphotos.com/1007593/508/i/450/dep_5083569-Overworked.jpg[/img]

[milkandcooki]

[QUOTE=Pelican;42921832]my point is proven right here

what you don't get is that the points anita makes about the games she 'reviews' are, as like everyone has said before, nitpicked - and for some reason you seems to say GOD YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT I AM SO DONE WITH THIS SITE, the issue isn't the fact that people are denying that there's sexism, the issue is that the way in which anita sardickian portrays it is stupid, yet you still seem to justify it by saying "muh sexism still exists"[/QUOTE]

[quote]the issue is that the way in which anita sardickian portrays it is stupid, yet you still seem to justify it by saying "muh sexism still exists"[/quote]

after 300 years of scientific study i have pinpointed your point

what does it mean though? maybe future generations with advanced technology will be able to decipher this ancient text.

[editline]19th November 2013[/editline]

can you please treat me like im 12 or something and spell it out in perfect english because i'm really fucking confused