Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=person11;42922964]We moved on from the video practically at this point, but yeah the Woman as Other is the main point of this video [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] Same here. I keep thinking I have reached the point of being as good as possible, and I will then find another thing from which I can improve upon. I remember recently commenting how dumb pink sports cars look and then realizing how many different social factors led me to making that dumb and meaningless statement.[/QUOTE] While you can debate with yourself regarding whether or not you should make comments about stuff, any person is entitled to their opinion of what color a car should have. [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;42922993]well i mean sure, but the red guard also get -10 intelligence haha[/QUOTE] To balance out a +10 to strength which plays into the "big and dumb" stereotype which is not really locked to any "race".

[QUOTE=thisispain;42922993]well i mean sure, but the red guard also get -10 intelligence haha[/QUOTE] In Skyrim Redguards are decent with magic which is commonly associated with intelligence, and they have the same intelligence as nords in morrowind which I guess is what you're talking about?? It's not like intelligence was relative to skin colour although on the subject of sex I guess female orcs had more intelligence than male ones

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42922869]So in response to the argument she has to come up with solutions, I'll refer to the internet's favorite adage here: "you don't need to be a chef to tell the food tastes bad" So do you need to be able to tell the chef how to cook better or else keep your mouth shut?[/QUOTE] I get the impression from the videos the entire point is to get people to talk and find solutions, not for her to do it all herself. If she made up solutions in her videos, you know the reactions would be akin to "Wow that only benefits women, sexism!" The way it is, like this thread has turned out, is just to get the ball rolling on discussing what exactly is happening. And having more people with input on solutions would likely work out better than just one person saying "Do this and it will fix shit." That's really what I get from the videos. Dunno why some people still take it as an attack on them personally when it's just trying to bring some troubling things up to start talks about them.

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;42923019]If she made up solutions in her videos, you know the reactions would be akin to "Wow that only benefits women, sexism!"[/QUOTE] even though this isnt the reason for her videos being the way they are, what you're saying shouldn't be an excuse and i think thats a really bad attitude for anyone that did want to make such a series of videos or essays it's like, "why try, shitty people will just react shitty" pointing out tropes as if every one of them are a problem just doesn't do it for me but apparently that's a problem for people. wishing her videos were a bit more active considering the budget and time spent, is that really terrible? does that mean i defend shitty characters or shitty youtube comments?

[QUOTE=TheJoey;42923085]even though this isnt the reason for her videos being the way they are, what you're saying shouldn't be an excuse and i think thats a really bad attitude for anyone that did want to make such a series of videos or essays[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that is why the videos came out as they are, I am pointing out how some people will ridicule people like her for no reason. Feel free to point out where I said "People being idiots are why she shouldn't make solutions" because that's ridiculous. I'd like it if she did have some ideas on what to do over this, and I'm not sure why she hasn't tried really. [QUOTE]it's like, "why try, shitty people will just react shitty"[/QUOTE] See above. I didn't say not to try because people would react like tools, I noted people would act like tools if she did make solutions. [QUOTE]pointing out tropes as if every one of them are a problem just doesn't do it for me but apparently that's a problem for people. [/QUOTE] It has done something for you though. You are here discussing the videos aren't you? [QUOTE]wishing her videos were a bit more active considering the budget and time spent, is that really terrible? does that mean i defend shitty characters or shitty youtube comments?[/QUOTE] No, it's not terrible. I'm not sure where I implied that it was. And no, it doesn't. Don't try and accuse me of saying you are doing things when I never implied that because that's stupid. I wish the videos did more for the issues they want to tackle, but they don't really. But what they are doing is just as important and should not be ignored because it doesn't satisfy you in particular. They are still just as relevant in providing information for people to use to work things out.

The content is fine, the way she presents it feels very passive aggressive and judgmental instead of being a critique. I don't think I ever saw her offer some ways on fixing the problems she presents.

Can we just stop posting her videos ? Nothing good ever happens in these threads.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;42923005]While you can debate with yourself regarding whether or not you should make comments about stuff, any person is entitled to their opinion of what color a car should have[/QUOTE] You are missing the point. Why did I not want pink on a sports car? Because sports cars are considered manly by our society and because the color pink is seen as feminine and therefore incompatible with a sports car. It's not based on opinion, but on how tropes and stereotypes in society are reinforced in all the opinions that we form. If we never question those opinions, we will never have any progress. Once I realized this, I realized who gives a flying shit just color your car how you want. Actually pink sports cars look pretty nice.

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;42923019]I get the impression from the videos the entire point is to get people to talk and find solutions, not for her to do it all herself. If she made up solutions in her videos, you know the reactions would be akin to "Wow that only benefits women, sexism!" The way it is, like this thread has turned out, is just to get the ball rolling on discussing what exactly is happening. And having more people with input on solutions would likely work out better than just one person saying "Do this and it will fix shit." That's really what I get from the videos. Dunno why some people still take it as an attack on them personally when it's just trying to bring some troubling things up to start talks about them.[/QUOTE] It strikes me as "she doesn't provide any solutions" is just a last ditch attempt at finding something wrong with her content. It doesn't matter what she does, there's going to be people who says her videos are bad because she didn't do X. "Damn, I can't find anything I disagree with about what she's saying, but she's The Enemy, so I must find something to criticise and invalidate what she's saying. I know! I'll say she isn't providing any solutions (even though she brings up positive examples of what she'd like to see more of, and I don't expect a detailed set of solutions from any other game critic)." [QUOTE=Rex McCoolguy;42923982]Can we just stop posting her videos ? Nothing good ever happens in these threads.[/QUOTE] I dunno, I found this discussion interesting.

[QUOTE=person11;42924286] It's not based on opinion, but on how tropes and stereotypes in society are reinforced in all the opinions that we form. If we never question those opinions, we will never have any progress.[/QUOTE] and not all of these benefit white men.

Most do

[QUOTE=person11;42924286]You are missing the point. Why did I not want pink on a sports car? Because sports cars are considered manly by our society and because the color pink is seen as feminine and therefore incompatible with a sports car. It's not based on opinion, but on how tropes and stereotypes in society are reinforced in all the opinions that we form. If we never question those opinions, we will never have any progress. Once I realized this, I realized who gives a flying shit just color your car how you want. Actually pink sports cars look pretty nice.[/QUOTE] So you're saying any opinion about car color can never be a personal preference?

It can be personal, but it can also originate from or be enforced by social factors. You cannot fully escape the society you are raised in. This is called Socialization.

Some good points are brought up in the video I guess, but it seems kinda nitpicky, or not... I dunno. I mean I definitely agree that in most games women don't have adequate representation (please don't hurt me.) but this subject specifically is kinda eh.

[QUOTE=pvt.jenkins;42924515]Some good points are brought up in the video I guess, but it seems kinda nitpicky, or not... I dunno. I mean I definitely agree that in most games women don't have adequate representation (please don't hurt me.) but this subject specifically is kinda eh.[/QUOTE] It seems kind of minor on the face of it, but I think the point that this sort of thing reinforces the idea of men as "the default" and women as "the other" is an important one. One of the things feminism tries to challenge is the idea that while men are individuals, women are, when you get right down to it, all the same. If you have male characters be the default and thus can look pretty much any kind of way and have any kind of personality, while female characters are a specific type and thus have a very rigid set of ways they can look or act, it carries forth the implication that men can be and are anything, while women can only be and are something specific, and therefore are all pretty much the same.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;42924343]So you're saying any opinion about car color can never be a personal preference?[/QUOTE] your color preferences are "colored" by your cultural and natural perceptions of colors. different colors look nice because of the cultural idea of what these colors represent, or they often mimic color combinations you would find in nature. when pink is culturally a girl's color, it becomes less likely for a man(who identifies as a man) to like the color pink.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42922838]He said that all males are oppressors, even if you oppose sexism, even if you're a feminist. And that all males have to pay compensation for the oppression in the past done by OTHER men. He puts all men into one bag. Every man is bad and should pay for being born male.[/QUOTE] You're probably reading too much into it. Many of the posters here are male, so there isn't a negative attitude towards them. It simply means that it's the main reason why it's difficult to understand female's perspective towards entertainment.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42922878]because unless you challenge all forms of privilege constantly then you inevitably say or do things that are oppressive. that's impossible. it isn't so much as "male = oppressor". it's more like "if you are a straight white man you will inevitably perpetuate oppression".[/QUOTE] So it isn't as much as "male = oppressor", it's more like "straight white man is inevitably an oppressor"? Whoa, yeah, a major difference. Also first you try to refute what I said by saying that if you do this and that you are not an oppressor and now you're saying that it's impossible not to be an oppressor... Do you really think that every straight white man should feel guilty and ashamed for being a straight white man? Fuck that. I'm sorry but I don't feel guilty or ashamed for slavery. I have no correlation with people who were slavers other than a gene that I haven't chosen to be born with. And I don't have any correlation with men who hurt women other than a chromosome that I haven't chosen to be born with. And you don't judge people based on things they were born with and haven't chosen. Why is it completely okay to generalize and demand something from straight white males yet completely atrocious to do the same exact thing with women, black people or homosexuals? Aren't double standards something that you oppose? Or you oppose only those double standards that are beneficial for straight white men? If that's so, how can you call yourself a member of a movement for equality? Either you oppose double standards and stereotyping or you don't. It really irks me that some people ride on a high horse criticizing other people yet they do exactly the thing they claim to oppose. Just in a way that supports their side. It's like watching someone say "you can't judge people based on the place they were born in, every single person in the country X is an asshole tho". You people are exactly the thing you hate. Just on the opposite side of the spectrum. Everyone who thinks that it's okay to judge people based on their race, gender, sexuality, etc, is the same to me.

[QUOTE=CoolKingKaso;42926004]You're probably reading too much into it. Many of the posters here are male, so there isn't a negative attitude towards them. It simply means that it's the main reason why it's difficult to understand female's perspective towards entertainment.[/QUOTE] Even if it is not the intended reading, it is still the correct one. If you are male, you are an oppressor and that's all you will ever be. It is that simple.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42926259] Also first you try to refute what I said by saying that if you do this and that you are not an oppressor and now you're saying that it's impossible not to be an oppressor...[/quote] yea it's impossible not to be an oppressor if you are privileged unless you want to live a life in perpetual unhappiness, stress, and isolation. buy an ipod? congrats, you are complicit with oppression. [quote]Do you really think that every straight white man should feel guilty and ashamed for being a straight white man?[/quote] nope [editline]20th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=LurkyLurker;42926314]Even if it is not the intended reading, it is still the correct one. If you are male, you are an oppressor and that's all you will ever be. It is that simple.[/QUOTE] no it's not unless you take a simplistic view of culture and humanity. i am a human being. i am oppressed by capitalism. i take actions that also sometimes make me an oppressor(whether economically or socially). i like playing games. i like writing. i have friends, i have a family. i am not just "an oppressor". i am a human being that is capable of doing many different things, sometimes simultaneously. regarding music, i am a musician. regarding my gender, i am a man. regarding feminism, i am an oppressor.

I'm trying to get this video to make me a sandwich, but it just keeps staring at me. What am I doing wrong?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42926259]So it isn't as much as "male = oppressor", it's more like "straight white man is inevitably an oppressor"? Whoa, yeah, a major difference. Also first you try to refute what I said by saying that if you do this and that you are not an oppressor and now you're saying that it's impossible not to be an oppressor... Do you really think that every straight white man should feel guilty and ashamed for being a straight white man? Fuck that. I'm sorry but I don't feel guilty or ashamed for slavery. I have no correlation with people who were slavers other than a gene that I haven't chosen to be born with. And I don't have any correlation with men who hurt women other than a chromosome that I haven't chosen to be born with. And you don't judge people based on things they were born with and haven't chosen. Why is it completely okay to generalize and demand something from straight white males yet completely atrocious to do the same exact thing with women, black people or homosexuals? Aren't double standards something that you oppose? Or you oppose only those double standards that are beneficial for straight white men? If that's so, how can you call yourself a member of a movement for equality? Either you oppose double standards and stereotyping or you don't. It really irks me that some people ride on a high horse criticizing other people yet they do exactly the thing they claim to oppose. Just in a way that supports their side. It's like watching someone say "you can't judge people based on the place they were born in, every single person in the country X is an asshole tho". You people are exactly the thing you hate. Just on the opposite side of the spectrum. Everyone who thinks that it's okay to judge people based on their race, gender, sexuality, etc, is the same to me.[/QUOTE] "You say that is sexist and racist that means YOU are sexist and racist HaHA I outsmarted you!"

[QUOTE=NuclearJesus;42928005]I'm trying to get this video to make me a sandwich, but it just keeps staring at me. What am I doing wrong?[/QUOTE] Have you tried turning your computer off and then never turning it back on again?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42926259]Everyone who thinks that it's okay to judge people based on their race, gender, sexuality, etc, is the same to me.[/QUOTE] Pretty much this. The only difference between person11 and your average racist is they direct it at their own race instead of others (and a hilariously undeserved sense of self righteousness)

[QUOTE=person11;42928055]"You say that is sexist and racist that means YOU are sexist and racist HaHA I outsmarted you!"[/QUOTE] What? That has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. Where did you even get this from? It's not saying that something is sexist/racist means that you are a sexist/racist yourself. You're sexist/racist when you start judging and generalizing people based on their sex/race. And you're doing exactly that. That's what I'm calling you out on. [editline]21st November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;42926920]yea it's impossible not to be an oppressor if you are privileged unless you want to live a life in perpetual unhappiness, stress, and isolation.[/QUOTE] So if you are male you are an oppressor and nothing will change that. There is no solution for individuals not to be an oppressor they get to be judged based on what other people who share the same gene and chromosome do. Way to generalize. [QUOTE=yawmwen;42926920]buy an ipod? congrats, you are complicit with oppression.[/QUOTE] What am I even reading?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42928198]So if you are male you are an oppressor and nothing will change that. There is no solution for individuals not to be an oppressor they get to be judged based on what other people who share the same gene and chromosome do. Way to generalize.[/quote] nope didn't say that try again plz. [quote]What am I even reading?[/QUOTE] my post. do you deny that by buying a product that is made with sweatshop labor that you are not complicit in oppression?

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42928282]nope didn't say that try again plz.[/QUOTE] How is this not what you said? You said this:[QUOTE=yawmwen;42926920]it's impossible not to be an oppressor if you are privileged unless you want to live a life in perpetual unhappiness, stress, and isolation.[/QUOTE] Living in perpetual unhappiness, stress, and isolation is not a viable option, therefore vast majority (if not all) of men will be oppressors. They are oppressors based on what OTHER men do or did. It doesn't matter what a man does individually, he gets to be judged on what other men do or did. [QUOTE=yawmwen;42928282]my post. do you deny that by buying a product that is made with sweatshop labor that you are not complicit in oppression?[/QUOTE] Creating demand for something isn't complicit with exploiting workers. Exploiting workers is. EVERYTHING (if not the law) could be made by exploiting someone.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42928363]They are oppressors based on what OTHER men do or did. [/quote] how the fuck do you go from "men are oppressors based on their actions" to "men are oppressors no matter what they do"? are you purposely reading whatever you want to read? [quote]Creating demand for something isn't complicit with exploiting workers. Exploiting workers is. EVERYTHING (if not the law) could be made by exploiting someone.[/QUOTE] how is it not complicit with oppression? you know a worker is exploited to make the product but buy it anyways.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42928410]how the fuck do you go from "men are oppressors based on their actions" to "men are oppressors no matter what they do"? are you purposely reading whatever you want to read?[/QUOTE] But you said that that everyone who's privileged (and men are) is an oppressor unless they do something that isn't a viable option. How the fuck do you go from this to "men are oppressors based on their actions"? That's the point. You are not saying that "if you do this and that to women you are an oppressor (that happens to be male)", you're going "if you are male, you are an oppressor (unless you do something that nobody really does)". [QUOTE=yawmwen;42928410]how is it not complicit with oppression? you know a worker is exploited to make the product but buy it anyways.[/QUOTE] You don't create demand for exploiting workers tho. You create demand for a product. The way this product is made (whether it happens with or without exploiting workers) is a choice someone else does.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42928085]Have you tried turning your computer off and then never turning it back on again?[/QUOTE] Yeah, I tried that, but. . . . . .hey, wait a minute. . .