Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42928545]But you said that that everyone who's privileged (and men are) is an oppressor unless they do something that isn't a viable option. How the fuck do you go from this to "men are oppressors based on their actions"? That's the point. You are not saying that "if you do this and that to women you are an oppressor (that happens to be male)", you're going "if you are male, you are an oppressor (unless you do something that nobody really does)". You don't create demand for exploiting workers tho. You create demand for a product. The way this product is made (whether it happens with or without exploiting workers) is a choice someone else does.[/QUOTE] ok i see that i'm not gonna convince you. you are purposely misreading my posts, are unwilling to look at context, and have a very narrow view of the ideas of oppression and privilege(namely, that it doesn't exist unless YOU say it exists). so thanks for the chat have a nice day.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42928597]ok i see that i'm not gonna convince you. you are purposely misreading my posts, are unwilling to look at context, and have a very narrow view of the ideas of oppression and privilege(namely, that it doesn't exist unless YOU say it exists). so thanks for the chat have a nice day.[/QUOTE] Or maybe you worded what you said poorly/incorrectly? "Anyone who says they're great at communication but 'people are bad at listening' is confused about how communication works" - Randall Munroe

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42928597]ok i see that i'm not gonna convince you.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=yawmwen;42928282]nope didn't say that try again plz[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=yawmwen;42928410]how the fuck do you go from "men are oppressors based on their actions" to "men are oppressors no matter what they do"? are you purposely reading whatever you want to read?[/QUOTE] Calling this passive aggressive "that's not what I said" trying to "convince" me is laughable. [QUOTE=yawmwen;42928597]you are purposely misreading my posts, are unwilling to look at context,[/QUOTE] How am I misreading your posts. This is what you fucking said [QUOTE=yawmwen;42922878]if you are a straight white man you will inevitably perpetuate oppression[/QUOTE] Explain to me in plain english without going "nope" or some other bullshit how does that translate to "men are oppressors based on their (individual) actions"? [QUOTE=yawmwen;42928597]and have a very narrow view of the ideas of oppression and privilege(namely, that it doesn't exist unless YOU say it exists).[/QUOTE] It doesn't exist unless you fucking do it. Sharing a gene or a chromosome with people who do oppress other people does not make you complicit.

recap of the glorious truths this thread has enlightened me to -all white men are misogynists, rapists, and murderers regardless of their views on equality or feminism -buying things makes you directly responsible for sweat shops and child labor -world of warcraft is full of racism and antisemitism -any fantasy game with racial stats promotes racism and stereotyping Jesus, you people are either the least subtle gimmick shitposters on the planet or you're completely batshit.

[QUOTE=JustGman;42928780]recap of the glorious truths this thread has enlightened me to -all white men are misogynists, rapists, and murderers regardless of their views on equality or feminism -buying things makes you directly responsible for sweat shops and child labor -world of warcraft is full of racism and antisemitism -any fantasy game with racial stats promotes racism and stereotyping Jesus, you people are either the least subtle gimmick shitposters on the planet or you're completely batshit.[/QUOTE] Don't forget: it's wrong to discriminate, judge and stereotype people based on sexuality, race or sex... unless it's a straight white male. (all that when claiming to support equality)

[QUOTE=JustGman;42928780]-buying things makes you directly responsible for sweat shops and child labor[/QUOTE] you forgot to add only if you're white :v: but in all seriousness I do have qualms about buying things produced in sweat shops / produced with child labour. I don't want to do it but it's basically unavoidable these days - the line of work I'm in requires a computer but I can't even imagine trying to find electronics (good ones, at that) that aren't produced unethically

[QUOTE=Elspin;42928912]you forgot to add only if you're white :v: but in all seriousness I do have qualms about buying things produced in sweat shops / produced with child labour. I don't want to do it but it's basically unavoidable these days - the line of work I'm in requires a computer but I can't even imagine trying to find electronics (good ones, at that) that aren't produced unethically[/QUOTE] that's sorta my point btw. it doesn't really make u a horrible person to do it, but it's still something you should be aware of. there are ways all of us can reasonably limit the amount of oppressive things we do. you should be aware of the way your privilege and choices affect other people and seek to change your behavior as much as possible. that's literally all anyone can ask of you.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42928954]that's sorta my point btw. it doesn't really make u a horrible person to do it, but it's still something you should be aware of. there are ways all of us can reasonably limit the amount of oppressive things we do. you should be aware of the way your privilege and choices affect other people and seek to change your behavior as much as possible. that's literally all anyone can ask of you.[/QUOTE] I do that but in return I think it's fair that I ask not to be called an "oppressor" because of the genes I was born with and had no control over.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42929018]I do that but in return I think it's fair that I ask not to be called an "oppressor" because of the genes I was born with and had no control over.[/QUOTE] no one calls you an oppressor based on the genes you were born with, really. people call you oppressor because of the privilege you were given based on the genes you were born with. it isn't because you are a "man", it's because you are "privileged".

Some guy on page 1 said that this thread is gonna get locked on page 6 everyone called him an optimist, they all bet page three

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42929053]no one calls you an oppressor based on the genes you were born with, really. people call you oppressor because of the privilege you were given based on the genes you were born with. it isn't because you are a "man", it's because you are "privileged".[/QUOTE] So to be clear here, you believe if a white male is born into a rich family (something he had no control over) he is immediately an "oppressor" despite any positive things he does? :v:

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42929053]no one calls you an oppressor based on the genes you were born with, really. people call you oppressor because of the privilege you were given based on the genes you were born with. it isn't because you are a "man", it's because you are "privileged".[/QUOTE] And the privilege comes from being a man, right? You're just talking in circles now.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42929053]no one calls you an oppressor based on the genes you were born with, really. people call you oppressor because of the privilege you were given based on the genes you were born with. it isn't because you are a "man", it's because you are "privileged".[/QUOTE] Good job on finally trying to explain yourself instead of just going "not what I said" in a passive aggressive tone. I'm starting to understand your position. However this privilege is tied to your genes and chromosomes. The ones that you haven't chosen. It's an unfair "gift" that you didn't choose to take. You still can't be judged and held responsible based on that. You can however be judged and held responsible if you exploit, sustain and don't question that privilege. Basically you're going "if X then Y then Z but I'm not saying that if X then Z."

[QUOTE=Rex McCoolguy;42923982]Can we just stop posting her videos ? Nothing good ever happens in these threads.[/QUOTE] i learned how not to be a dumb idiot that shits on internet feminism by visiting these threads why? because people actually had compelling arguments and [I]i actually started to watch anita's videos without some dumb predisposed hatred[/I]

I feel like most of these discussions are just completely lost in semantics/different understanding. It starts at words like "criticism" and "critique", and just escalates once you hit terms like "oppression". Quite sad really, everything might be more productive if we'd work on fixing up the communication itself first. Usually many who might actually be interested get totally turned away by, what seems to be, the aggression of "IT'S YOUR FAULT, TOOOOO" The most vocal voices on both sides then get ridiculed instead of trying to understand what might make them think that way.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42928363] [B]Living in perpetual unhappiness, stress, and isolation is not a viable option[/B], therefore vast majority (if not all) of men will be oppressors. They are oppressors based on what OTHER men do or did. It doesn't matter what a man does individually, he gets to be judged on what other men do or did. [/QUOTE] Actually, it [I]is[/I] an option. And its one that you should be considering to pay your dues. But, of course, a white, privileged male can't comprehend living a lifestyle less than that of a white, privileged male. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;42928692] It doesn't exist unless you fucking do it. [B]Sharing a gene or a chromosome with people who do oppress other people does not make you complicit[/B].[/QUOTE] In fact it [I]does[/I] make you complicit. Simply being born into and living the life of a white, privileged male makes you a part of the oppression and no matter how you acknowledge it or what you do to mitigate it, you must be held partly responsible for its injustices and crimes. [QUOTE=Elspin;42929018]I do that but in return I think it's fair that I ask not to be called an "oppressor" because of the genes I was born with and had no control over.[/QUOTE] Those who were and are oppressed had no control over the genes they was born with either. Why should you [I]not[/I] be called an oppressor when that is exactly what you are? Being called that is a mercy compared to what white, privileged males have done and continue to do to those they oppress.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42928827]Don't forget: it's wrong to discriminate, judge and stereotype people based on sexuality, race or sex... unless it's a straight white male. (all that when claiming to support equality)[/QUOTE] when the fuck have people been saying this the other side of the argument is that privileged people that have probably never experienced discrimination because of their gender, race, or social class [I]should actually acknowledge that they might have it better off, and try to understand how other people feel.[/I]

[QUOTE=Elspin;42929146]So to be clear here, you believe if a white male is born into a rich family (something he had no control over) he is immediately an "oppressor" despite any positive things he does? :v:[/QUOTE] unless you give up all forms of privilege then yea. just because your actions can be oppressive doesn't mean you are a shitty person unless you knowingly perpetuate the oppression. i personally don't call people oppressors UNLESS they knowingly perpetuate oppression, but i understand why other people are more liberal with the term. it's meant to sort of remind you that no matter how progressive you might think you are, you still perpetuate oppression in certain ways, generally without knowing. instead of getting overly defensive about the term, maybe try to understand the rationale behind it and look at the greater meaning of the term. it isn't "calling out men", it's calling out the privilege of being a man. on another note it's supposed to make you a little angry as well. personally i think all straight white men should be fucking pissed off at the system for creating systems of inequality where we are complicit with oppression. through no fault of your own, you have become an oppressor because of the way society treats you, that's not fucking fair at all for anyone who believes we should be treated as equals.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42929280]when the fuck have people been saying this the other side of the argument is that privileged people that have probably never experienced discrimination because of their gender, race, or social class [I]should actually acknowledge that they might have it better off, and try to understand how other people feel.[/I][/QUOTE] His post was referencing person11 who previously said that all straight white males are oppressors regardless of whether they acknowledge and do something or not.

I took from this video that in order to have gender equality in games this is what has to be done. The girls cannot have breasts, hair styles most commonly used by females, anything related to the colors pink or purple which are common colors favored by females, and can not use items of clothing most typically worn by females.

[QUOTE=assassin_Raptor;42929329]I took from this video that in order to have gender equality in games this is what has to be done. The girls cannot have breasts, hair styles most commonly used by females, anything related to the colors pink or purple which are common colors favored by females, and can not use items of clothing most typically worn by females.[/QUOTE] swoosh

[QUOTE=LurkyLurker;42929276]Actually, it [I]is[/I] an option. And its one that you should be considering to pay your dues. But, of course, a white, privileged male can't comprehend living a lifestyle less than that of a white, privileged male. In fact it [I]does[/I] make you complicit. Simply being born into and living the life of a white, privileged male makes you a part of the oppression and no matter how you acknowledge it or what you do to mitigate it, you must be held partly responsible for its injustices and crimes. Those who were and are oppressed had no control over the genes they was born with either. Why should you [I]not[/I] be called an oppressor when that is exactly what you are? Being called that is a mercy compared to what white, privileged males have done and continue to do to those they oppress.[/QUOTE] Holy shit you are insane, I cannot imagine what must have happened to you to make you think things like this [QUOTE=milkandcooki;42929280]when the fuck have people been saying this the other side of the argument is that privileged people that have probably never experienced discrimination because of their gender, race, or social class [I]should actually acknowledge that they might have it better off, and try to understand how other people feel.[/I][/QUOTE] I don't think anyone here is trying to say rich white males don't have it better off, just that we don't deserve to be hated because of how we were born [QUOTE=yawmwen;42929286]unless you give up all forms of privilege then yea. just because your actions can be oppressive doesn't mean you are a shitty person unless you knowingly perpetuate the oppression. i personally don't call people oppressors UNLESS they knowingly perpetuate oppression, but i understand why other people are more liberal with the term. it's meant to sort of remind you that no matter how progressive you might think you are, you still perpetuate oppression in certain ways, generally without knowing. instead of getting overly defensive about the term, maybe try to understand the rationale behind it and look at the greater meaning of the term. it isn't "calling out men", it's calling out the privilege of being a man. on another note it's supposed to make you a little angry as well. personally i think all straight white men should be fucking pissed off at the system for creating systems of inequality where we are complicit with oppression. through no fault of your own, you have become an oppressor because of the way society treats you, that's not fucking fair at all for anyone who believes we should be treated as equals.[/QUOTE] Still pretty insane but at least a little bit grounded in reality. I haven't "become an oppressor" in the slightest, no more than any other citizen of the modern world. Yes I buy products that are made unethically but it's pretty out of my control to not do so and in every way I can be I am a good person to others of every race and sex. I'd like to be clear by the way that it doesn't make me particularly angry to be called an oppressor because I frankly find it a bit funny in the same way I'd find someone quite seriously trying to call me a grapefruit funny. It's just so beyond ridiculous that I can't have my feelings hurt by it.

I just want to make it known that my "sandwich" comment is the polar opposite of how I actually feel on the subject. While I do believe that the disparity between gender roles in video games is a bit on the ridiculous side, and some real changes do need to take place, I do think that the video in question goes a bit far. I am quite concerned for female gamers, especially the younger ones. My daughter is five, and I see her growing up in a world where her main role models in games will be characters like Lollipop Chainsaw, subservient princesses who seem to exist only to be abducted, Lydia (I am sworn to carry your burdens!), and Lara "I'm only the protagonist so you can stare at my ass" Croft. There have been a few positive female characters. . .Joanna Dark was an undisputed badass back in the day, and didn't have to show off her tits to be one. Samus from Metroid was another. But the males do outnumber the females by a lot. So, point taken, video. My issue, however, is taking certain, rather innocent points, like the introduction of Ms. Pacman, and making them something more than they were intended, like a slight on female characters. That said, I've since made my own sandwich, because I'm hungry and tired of waiting. Thanks for nothing, video. (again. . .being ironic. . .I actually made ramen)

[QUOTE=Elspin;42929443]Still pretty insane but at least a little bit grounded in reality. I haven't "become an oppressor" in the slightest, no more than any other citizen of the modern world. Yes I buy products that are made unethically but it's pretty out of my control to not do so and in every way I can be I am a good person to others of every race and sex. I'd like to be clear by the way that it doesn't make me particularly angry to be called an oppressor because I frankly find it a bit funny in the same way I'd find someone quite seriously trying to call me a grapefruit funny. It's just so beyond ridiculous that I can't have my feelings hurt by it.[/QUOTE] the first paragraph is where you are supposed to be pissed off. instead of passive acceptance of this oppression, it should be revolting. you should look at these things not as the way they are and the way they should be but the ways that should be abolished. you aren't a bad person, yet you are put into a position where you end up elevated above others through no merit.

[QUOTE=assassin_Raptor;42929329]I took from this video that in order to have gender equality in games this is what has to be done. The girls cannot have breasts, hair styles most commonly used by females, anything related to the colors pink or purple which are common colors favored by females, and can not use items of clothing most typically worn by females.[/QUOTE] Then you weren't paying attention to the video... Look at the discussion that came out this is crazy. I think that designating a group of people 'the white privledged man' as opressors is racist/sexist/prejudice. If you want all this opression to stop then you have to stop blaming general groups of people and blame the individuals themselves.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42929575]the first paragraph is where you are supposed to be pissed off. instead of passive acceptance of this oppression, it should be revolting. you should look at these things not as the way they are and the way they should be but the ways that should be abolished. you aren't a bad person, yet you are put into a position where you end up elevated above others through no merit.[/QUOTE] I didn't say that it doesn't piss me off that products are made unethically, it does quite a bit. I just said that it doesn't piss me off to be called an "oppressor".

[QUOTE=omarfr;42929598]Then you weren't paying attention to the video... Look at the discussion that came out this is crazy. I think that designating a group of people 'the white privledged man' as opressors is racist/sexist/prejudice. If you want all this opression to stop then you have to stop blaming general groups of people and blame the individuals themselves.[/QUOTE] there needs to be both. humans exist as both individuals and collectives. looking at individual ways a person can perpetrate oppression is only half the story; there is a whole society that is built upon perpetuation of oppression.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42929611]I didn't say that it doesn't piss me off that products are made unethically, it does quite a bit. I just said that it doesn't piss me off to be called an "oppressor".[/QUOTE] You better gather that white rich male cisness so you can buy those products that costs up to x5 more than those sweatshop ones so you can finally be free from being oppressor. No wait a second, so in order not to be oppressor you have to be rich but if you are rich you are privileged so you have to choose? I am getting too confused here.

[QUOTE=Combine 177;42929673]You better gather that white rich male cisness so you can buy those products that costs up to x5 more than those sweatshop ones so you can finally be free from being oppressor. No wait a second, so in order not to be oppressor you have to be rich but if you are rich you are privileged so you have to choose? I am getting too confused here.[/QUOTE] No no no you can be rich but you just can't be white AND rich, because that's just too much privilege. You see, if you want to know what level of privilege is acceptable you can check your privilege and if it's too high you have to lower it to be acceptable, for example you could cripple yourself or burn all your money.

[QUOTE=NuclearJesus;42929520]There have been a few positive female characters. . .Joanna Dark was an undisputed badass back in the day, and didn't have to show off her tits to be one. Samus from Metroid was another. But the males do outnumber the females by a lot. So, point taken, video. My issue, however, is taking certain, rather innocent points, like the introduction of Ms. Pacman, and making them something more than they were intended, like a slight on female characters.[/QUOTE] Kudos for coming at it from a more neutral perspective, but I think you're misinterpreting what she's saying. It's not that these things are an intentional jab against women, but that they can carry negative implications that were most likely unintended. Say your 5 year old daughter were to play a game where you have a bunch of male characters that are all unique, differently coloured, and designed differently in a not particularly gendered way, and then there's one female character whose difference is being dressed up in bows, make-up and pink. The male characters have different personalities (e.g. one is cheerful and sociable, one is bad tempered, one is reclusive and nerdy), but the female character's personality is based pretty much entirely on gender stereotypes (i.e. she's vain, materialistic, and emotional). The message your daughter would be getting from that is that while boys can be all kinds of different things, there's only one proper way to be a girl, which may not be the sort of person she is. The game designers might not have intended that message to be given, they might not have even thought about it at all, but that's what comes across. Now, that's just one game, and she's probably not going to be greatly affected by one single piece of media so that's not too much of a problem. But this sort of thing is a trend that is all over games and other types of media, so this will be a message she'll be getting frequently, from all sorts of different places, and that sort of thing is going to have an effect.