Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=doctordarken;42906987]I just wanna play video games. Why can't I just play video games anymore? Video games are fun.[/QUOTE] Then go play some video games - no one's forcing you to watch the video or post in this thread.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42907191]i think there's better reasons why bioware are a joke now than those questionable designs :v:[/QUOTE] Well I wouldn't want to derail the thread into a bioware sucks one, now would I?

I don't want to get involved much but she mentions Femshep is called Femshep because she is female Shepard. From all my experience with the ME community Male Shepard is called Maleshep and not just Shep/Shepard so that point doesn't have much weight to it.

[QUOTE=NinjaTomate;42906678]The Mass Effect part doesn't really make sense. If they used female shepard in all the commercials, she'd go on about how Bioware is just trying to "use" the character to sell the game and objectifies the character.[/QUOTE] That got me too. Shepard is a customizable character, not a female counterpart.

[QUOTE=TheJoey;42906774] that being said, female shepard does not sell. a publisher would never allow bioware to use female shepard for marketing for that reason. this is not a problem with the game but of corporate and commercial nature, so either way it's misplaced criticism.[/QUOTE] There are interesting questions to be asked about [i]why[/i] she doesn't sell, though.

Why so video games need to start out with white males when customizing? It goes back to Beauvoir and Dubois all over again. Just have to customization start out with randomized features. It's the most diplomatic thing to do and it has no effect on gameplay.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42907384]There are interesting questions to be asked about [i]why[/i] she doesn't sell, though.[/QUOTE] the nature of society and being suckered in by the tits, ass and airbrushing techniques of marketing. or bioware could just not have a shitty publisher and do what The Last Of Us decided to do: "put the girl on the front of the box anyway" because "fuck you i won't do what you tell me".

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42907384]There are interesting questions to be asked about [i]why[/i] she doesn't sell, though.[/QUOTE] um because the majority uses male shepard, so it's the majority of people's canonical shepard? I mean seriously, this isn't difficult, and it isn't some super duper crazy proof that society is sexist at the core.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42907384]There are interesting questions to be asked about [i]why[/i] she doesn't sell, though.[/QUOTE] Because their internal statistics (didn't even know they had these, wonder what other data they silently collect) says that only 1/5 of players play as femshep. I believe they already did add femshep to the marketing though for ME3

[QUOTE=person11;42907401]Why so video games need to start out with white males when customizing? It goes back to Beauvoir and Dubois all over again. Just have to customization start out with randomized features. It's the most diplomatic thing to do and it has no effect on gameplay.[/QUOTE] mass effect is one of the few games with a fully customizable character that defaults to the male white character settings. other games include other bioware games such as dragon age 2 for example. the issue lies between having a fully customizable character and making a marketable character for your box. perhaps they are just not good enough to pull a demon/dark souls box kinda deal, or just couldn't. there is also a randomize button on the screen that you can push at any time.

[QUOTE=TheJoey;42907447]the nature of society and being suckered in by the tits, ass and airbrushing techniques of marketing. or bioware could just not have a shitty publisher and do what The Last Of Us decided to do: "put the girl on the front of the box anyway" because "fuck you i won't do what you tell me".[/QUOTE] So in other words the corporate cowardice that characterizes a lot about the gaming industry. [quote]um because the majority uses male shepard, so it's the majority of people's canonical shepard? [/quote] Riddle me this: Why is that the case?

[QUOTE=doctordarken;42906987]I just wanna play video games. Why can't I just play video games anymore? Video games are fun.[/QUOTE] videogames are a creative medium created by people, why should they be exempt from study, analysis, and criticism? movies, tv shows, and cartoons aren't.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42907537]So in other words the corporate cowardice that characterizes a lot about the gaming industry.[/QUOTE] about any industry. the problem does not stem from video games.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42907537]So in other words the corporate cowardice that characterizes a lot about the gaming industry. Riddle me this: Why is that the case?[/QUOTE] yeah, this is one thing i've never seen anyone argue against [I]why[/I] is a white dude with big muscles and a stubble the default person? is it because he's the "most common" type of person that will play the game? even if that was the case, that doesn't fucking matter at all, because there are billions of people on earth that [I]aren't[/I] white dudes with big muscles and stubbles that can kill dudes with machine guns.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42907541]videogames are a creative medium created by people, why should they be exempt from study, analysis, and criticism? movies, tv shows, and cartoons aren't.[/QUOTE] And games stand to benefit from it. Self-examination never hurts.

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42907583]And games stand to benefit from it. Self-examination never hurts.[/QUOTE] yeah. it's ridiculous that i even have to mention this, but i like a lot of games, even ones that suffer from hideously overused tropes and focus on dumb gender-role bullshit i'm not 100% in agreement with. can the people who come in saying "why do we need to have a discussion they're just games ugh" quietly opt out of these threads because they're literally adding nothing to the discussion.

[QUOTE=person11;42907401]Why so video games need to start out with white males when customizing? It goes back to Beauvoir and Dubois all over again. Just have to customization start out with randomized features. It's the most diplomatic thing to do and it has no effect on gameplay.[/QUOTE] So instead of starting with the devs vison of what the hero looks like, we should hit the random button because they might be white males. just what are you smoking?

Portraying female characters as just blank slates with female traits is certainly a trope but I'd argue that these days it's the exception to the rule, especially when you start looking at games beyond the more juvenile set where simple aesthetics more easily communicate character traits. While I dislike the notion that for example Nintendo games have simplistic stories or characters and are ergo immune from criticism, I don't think there is anything wrong with portraying Dixie Kong as the female counterpart to Diddy Kong. When you bump up the maturity in games you almost never find outright stereotypical female avatars these days in either indie or AAA titles. Aspects of femininity can certainly be exaggerated but even this is being toned down I find. She is certainly right that simply defining a character as female [I]can [/I]prevent you from attributing more indepth characteristics so the trope exists but it's not nearly so prevalent in gaming nowadays. As for the Smurfette thing, I'm not really buying it. Sure in a story with 40 people having one token female is weird but she references a couple games there that have all of four characters. I suppose I can see Left 4 Dead or Gauntlet swap out a male character for a female one but it's hardly a trope for not being exactly 50/50. Again a trope that exists but in typical Sarkeesian fashion, she paints too broadly and it weakens her overall point. Finally, as someone already mentioned while I was watching this, she is under the mistaken impression that only femshep is qualified by her gender and doesn't know that maleshep is also used to describe her male counterpart. This is a problem I've found with Sarkeesian's analysis that rubs me the wrong way. She superficially sees words or images and spins a point from absolutely nothing. She even inadvertantly admits her ignorance of Mass Effect itself in the video by proclaiming that "many people" believe Jennifer Hale's voice acting to be superior. I'd like to know what she thinks about it. Has she even played the game? Or participated in the community? Or has she merely seen the term femshep somewhere and jumped on it? [editline]18th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Rockeiro123;42907630]So instead of starting with the devs vison of what the hero looks like, we should hit the random button because they might be white males. just what are you smoking?[/QUOTE] I'm 99.98% sure he is talking about games where you actually get to customize a character with sliders and shit. Some games already randomly generate characters for you so it's not really a big deal.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42907602]yeah. it's ridiculous that i even have to mention this, but i like a lot of games, even ones that suffer from hideously overused tropes and focus on dumb gender-role bullshit i'm not 100% in agreement with. can the people who come in saying "why do we need to have a discussion they're just games ugh" quietly opt out of these threads because they're literally adding nothing to the discussion.[/QUOTE] Especially since gamers criticise aspects of games [I]all the time.[/I] Why are people suddenly not allowed to do so when it comes from a gender-politics angle?

Good point, but then we have to think about why every generic rpg character is a white guy and why that is the vision of so many video game developers. Same thing as in movies and tv shows.

[QUOTE=person11;42907401]Why so video games need to start out with white males when customizing? It goes back to Beauvoir and Dubois all over again. Just have to customization start out with randomized features. It's the most diplomatic thing to do and it has no effect on gameplay.[/QUOTE] this is probably the worst way to solve the "problem" because in the name of efficiency the initial slider should be where the highest number of choices are expected to be basically nobody should care if you think it's sexist/racist, if most players play as x the default sliders being there means it's more convenient. better design is more important than people getting upset over literally nothing. Hell if you wanna take the extra step localize it - if players in y region choose x on the default slider more often, make it start there for them.

I love how Facepunch has debates over feminism with people on both sides, but when it comes to Anita Sarkeesian everyone agrees she's full of shit. She does more harm than good for feminism and I feel sorry for all those who genuinely fight for women's rights and put a lot of hard work into however they aim to achieve that. Sarkeesian is so well known and really drags their image down.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;42907639] I'm 99.98% sure he is talking about games where you actually get to customize a character with sliders and shit. Some games already randomly generate characters for you so it's not really a big deal.[/QUOTE] Yes and in those kinds of games the devs usually have visons of what the main protagonist should look like, why should they be denied the opportunity to show their vison of their work, before the player gets to customize anything, just because the protagonist might be a white male.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;42907639]Portraying female characters as just blank slates with female traits is certainly a trope but I'd argue that these days it's the exception to the rule, especially when you start looking at games beyond the more juvenile set where simple aesthetics more easily communicate character traits. While I dislike the notion that for example Nintendo games have simplistic stories or characters and are ergo immune from criticism, I don't think there is anything wrong with portraying Dixie Kong as the female counterpart to Diddy Kong. When you bump up the maturity in games you almost never find outright stereotypical female avatars these days in either indie or AAA titles. Aspects of femininity can certainly be exaggerated but even this is being toned down I find. She is certainly right that simply defining a character as female [I]can [/I]prevent you from attributing more indepth characteristics so the trope exists but it's not nearly so prevalent in gaming nowadays. As for the Smurfette thing, I'm not really buying it. Sure in a story with 40 people having one token female is weird but she references a couple games there that have all of four characters. I suppose I can see Left 4 Dead or Gauntlet swap out a male character for a female one but it's hardly a trope for not being exactly 50/50. Again a trope that exists but in typical Sarkeesian fashion, she paints too broadly and it weakens her overall point. Finally, as someone already mentioned while I was watching this, she is under the mistaken impression that only femshep is qualified by her gender and doesn't know that maleshep is also used to describe her male counterpart. This is a problem I've found with Sarkeesian's analysis that rubs me the wrong way. She superficially sees words or images and spins a point from absolutely nothing. She even inadvertantly admits her ignorance of Mass Effect itself in the video by proclaiming that "many people" believe Jennifer Hale's voice acting to be superior. I'd like to know what she thinks about it. Has she even played the game? Or participated in the community? Or has she merely seen the term femshep somewhere and jumped on it?[/QUOTE] I think the "many people" thing is a bit of a stretch. She's making the point that a lot of people think that voice acting was better. Saying "I personally think Jennifer Hale's voice acting is superior" wouldn't really say anything, since the point isn't about her personally. Other than that I think this is all fair criticism. [QUOTE=Bread_Baron;42907684]I love how Facepunch has debates over feminism with people on both sides, but when it comes to Anita Sarkeesian everyone agrees she's full of shit. She does more harm than good for feminism and I feel sorry for all those who genuinely fight for women's rights and put a lot of hard work into however they aim to achieve that. Sarkeesian is so well known and really drags their image down.[/QUOTE] I don't think Sarkeesian's perfect (and let's be honest, no one is), but she does make a lot of good and well-thought out points even though I don't always agree with her. IMO people tend hate on her just to hate on her - she's really not worthy of such venom.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;42907684]I love how Facepunch has debates over feminism with people on both sides, but when it comes to Anita Sarkeesian everyone agrees she's full of shit. She does more harm than good for feminism and I feel sorry for all those who genuinely fight for women's rights and put a lot of hard work into however they aim to achieve that. Sarkeesian is so well known and really drags their image down.[/QUOTE] Again speaking as someone who agrees with maybe 50% of what Sarkeesian says, I don't think it's fair to judge the massive and nuanced socio-political ideology and movement known as feminism off of one person's youtube series about tropes in video games. I'm not a feminist either, it just doesn't seem fair. [QUOTE=Elspin;42907682]this is probably the worst way to solve the "problem" because in the name of efficiency the initial slider should be where the highest number of choices are expected to be basically nobody should care if you think it's sexist/racist, if most players play as x the default sliders being there means it's more convenient. better design is more important than people getting upset over literally nothing. Hell if you wanna take the extra step localize it - if players in y region choose x on the default slider more often, make it start there for them.[/QUOTE] Honestly the fact that you are talking about ~design~ when it comes to something as innocuous and simple as character customization bars despite the fact that several video games already do exactly what he described makes you seem like the person who is getting upset over "literally nothing".

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;42907684]I love how Facepunch has debates over feminism with people on both sides, but when it comes to Anita Sarkeesian everyone agrees she's full of shit. She does more harm than good for feminism and I feel sorry for all those who genuinely fight for women's rights and put a lot of hard work into however they aim to achieve that. Sarkeesian is so well known and really drags their image down.[/QUOTE] can you explain why like for real instead of making some shout from the sidelines i don't agree with everything anita sarkeoasdufashhn says, i think her videos are eh quality, but she brings up a good point. no, not in her fremfreq videos, she proves that sexism is an issue in the industry [I]through the existence of her videos.[/I] people have made stupid videos criticizing videogames since the 80's, why would anita's videos cause such an outcry if sexism WASN'T a problem?

[QUOTE=Elspin;42907682]this is probably the worst way to solve the "problem" because in the name of efficiency the initial slider should be where the highest number of choices are expected to be basically nobody should care if you think it's sexist/racist, if most players play as x the default sliders being there means it's more convenient. better design is more important than people getting upset over literally nothing. Hell if you wanna take the extra step localize it - if players in y region choose x on the default slider more often, make it start there for them.[/QUOTE] Maybe most players play as x [I]because[/I] the default sliders are there?

[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42907537]Riddle me this: Why is that the case?[/QUOTE] because it's a role playing game and it's easier for me as a white guy to step into the role of a white guy? and I would assume this logic carries over to the majority of the player base?

What's she bitching about No really, she's been blabbering for like 5 minutes and has gotten 0% of her point to me. [editline]18th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=person11;42907401]Why so video games need to start out with white males when customizing? It goes back to Beauvoir and Dubois all over again. Just have to customization start out with randomized features. It's the most diplomatic thing to do and it has no effect on gameplay.[/QUOTE] Demographics.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;42907684]I love how Facepunch has debates over feminism with people on both sides, but when it comes to Anita Sarkeesian everyone agrees she's full of shit. She does more harm than good for feminism and I feel sorry for all those who genuinely fight for women's rights and put a lot of hard work into however they aim to achieve that. Sarkeesian is so well known and really drags their image down.[/QUOTE] While I sometimes question her methodology and structure, and while I lament her videos' existence (It is really sad the video game community needs to be spoonfed the sociological equivalent of 2+2=4), I think she has not said anything wrong yet.