Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

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[QUOTE=gk99;42907842]What's she bitching about No really, she's been blabbering for like 5 minutes and has gotten 0% of her point to me. [editline]18th November 2013[/editline] Demographics.[/QUOTE] I think I want to give white guys enough credit for them to choose White and Male when making a character. It's not that hard.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;42907872]-Comments are disabled for this video- Nobody shall have a voice or opinion, besides me![/QUOTE] well let's be fair the only thing that would be there anyway are all those fucking bob copy/paste acii things

[QUOTE=Elspin;42907682]this is probably the worst way to solve the "problem" because in the name of efficiency the initial slider should be where the highest number of choices are expected to be basically nobody should care if you think it's sexist/racist, if most players play as x the default sliders being there means it's more convenient. better design is more important than people getting upset over literally nothing. Hell if you wanna take the extra step localize it - if players in y region choose x on the default slider more often, make it start there for them.[/QUOTE] One should not care about the opinions of others until they interfere with the lives of others, and racism/sexism affect thé lives of others, as do things that enable such opinions, like making the default for everything being a white guy.

I don't usually like her videos but I think she made a lot of good points. Personally as an artist (especially one who does cartoony sorts of art) this helped me think a lot more about how I draw female characters. There are things she said that are stupid however. The Left 4 Dead and Mass Effect thing seems a little stupid but I think she's generally on key. She's not saying there's anything wrong with a female character having a bow or pink or whatever, just that when it's used as the defining personality of a character that could be far more interesting. I think maybe the zelda series does this pretty well with their characters, besides the 'Save The Princess' trope. Sarkeesian has the right idea but she really has to focus more on her arguments and people might find what she says more credible.

[QUOTE=gk99;42907842]What's she bitching about No really, she's been blabbering for like 5 minutes and has gotten 0% of her point to me. Demographics.[/QUOTE] Apparently its wrong to distinguish between males and females in video games. [QUOTE=DMGaina;42907872]-Comments are disabled for this video- Nobody shall have a voice or opinion, besides me![/QUOTE] I hate it when people do this. [QUOTE=person11;42907892]One should not care about the opinions of others until they interfere with the lives of others, and racism/sexism affect thé lives of others, as do things that enable such opinions, like making the default for everything being a white guy.[/QUOTE] Which is getting a lot less common as the gaming industry moves foward. Most of her examples were from 20 years ago now? Beating a dead horse at its finest.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42907880]well let's be fair the only thing that would be there anyway are all those fucking bob copy/paste acii things[/QUOTE] I love how the internet went from saying horrible things about her in the comments to complaining their right to free speech was being taken from them by her. [editline]18th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Oizen;42907900]Apparently its wrong to distinguish between males and females in video games. I hate it when people do this.[/QUOTE] Making the male the default is the wrong part and I'd disable comments too if I got death threats. [editline]18th November 2013[/editline] Even if they were not serious ones

[QUOTE=DMGaina;42907872]-Comments are disabled for this video- Nobody shall have a voice or opinion, besides me![/QUOTE] yeah but some people are mean so its ok for her to do so (this is what anita defenders sound like)

It's getting less common but still happens. You can't stop complaining until the practice is extinct. [editline]18th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=LeonS;42907919]yeah but some people are mean so its ok for her to do so (this is what anita defenders sound like)[/QUOTE] Some people meaning one nice comment out of a thousand comments that sound like a 4chan thread full of misogynist bullshit

[QUOTE=person11;42907401]Just have to customization start out with randomized features. It's the most diplomatic thing to do and it has no effect on gameplay.[/QUOTE] I don't remember exactly how extensive Mass Effect's customization was, but usually that is not a good idea. Randomizing in games with very extensive character creation generally ends up with a character who looks like some kind of mutant freak thing, i'd kind of like the default to atleast look human. but ofcourse then there are games like Oblivion where all characters are mutant freak potato things whether they are randomized or not.

[QUOTE=elowin;42907939]I don't remember exactly how extensive Mass Effect's customization was, but usually that is not a good idea. Randomizing in games with very extensive character creation generally ends up with a character who looks like some kind of mutant freak thing, i'd kind of like the default to atleast look human. but ofcourse then there are games like Oblivion where all characters are mutant freak potato things whether they are randomized or not.[/QUOTE] I mean the randomness would be calibrated by the developers. Some games already start out randomized and it's never freakish.

[QUOTE=person11;42907925]It's getting less common but still happens. You can't stop complaining until the practice is extinct.[/QUOTE] Well shit son you better grab a fucking seat cause you ain't going anywhere anytime soon. If tentacle porn managed to survive for over a hundred years then you can be damn sure that stereotypical gender differentiation won't go away anytime soon.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42907797]can you explain why like for real instead of making some shout from the sidelines i don't agree with everything anita sarkeoasdufashhn says, i think her videos are eh quality, but she brings up a good point. no, not in her fremfreq videos, she proves that sexism is an issue in the industry [I]through the existence of her videos.[/I] people have made stupid videos criticizing videogames since the 80's, why would anita's videos cause such an outcry if sexism WASN'T a problem?[/QUOTE] Well if you're gonna critize something, make sure your aguments dont revolve around taking thing out of context; Video games are a complicated business, they are very dynamic in their nature, and have a lot of moving parts, when you take out a cog out of a big machine and point to it and say "this is bad", but it isnt true when taken in the context of the whole. Then people are going to be upset because it's a very dishonest way to get people at angry at something that isn't really there. There might be other problems but I can't really remember any, besides that whole taking footage from other people's lets play, controversy we had a while back.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;42907872]-Comments are disabled for this video- Nobody shall have a voice or opinion, besides me![/QUOTE] When people keep putting dog turds in, don't be surprised when the mail slot gets nailed shut.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;42907872]-Comments are disabled for this video- Nobody shall have a voice or opinion, besides me![/QUOTE] you are talking about her video you are not being barred from this. you are talking about the video right now. you are voicing your opinion. this is not censorship.

[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;42907735]Yes and in those kinds of games the devs usually have visons of what the main protagonist should look like, why should they be denied the opportunity to show their vison of their work, before the player gets to customize anything, just because the protagonist might be a white male.[/QUOTE] Nobody is talking about denying anyone anything. [QUOTE=Tweevle;42907757]I think the "many people" thing is a bit of a stretch. She's making the point that a lot of people think that voice acting was better. Saying "I personally think Jennifer Hale's voice acting is superior" wouldn't really say anything, since the point isn't about her personally. Other than that I think this is all fair criticism.[/QUOTE] I could be reading too much into it but it seems like a substanceless promotion for femshep over a real point. Though her simply saying "I liked Jennifer Hale's voice acting so femshep should be more prominent in marketing" would be equally vacuous so I suppose you are right either way. I'm still sticking with my (admittedly utterly unproven) theory that she doesn't really understand the femshep/maleshep paradigms and why they exist in the ME community. [QUOTE=person11;42907854]While I sometimes question her methodology and structure, and while I lament her videos' existence (It is really sad the video game community needs to be spoonfed the sociological equivalent of 2+2=4), I think she has not said anything wrong yet.[/QUOTE] For just showing off tropes and explaining them at an overall level her analysis isn't bad. The problem with me is when she starts citing specific examples of games I've played. I make it a point not to criticize her analysis of games I haven't played myself but when she gets important character or plot details absolutely wrong in games I have played all I can do is shake my head. It's an issue I've had to grapple with as her video series expands. It's a weird dichotomy where I can see exactly what she is talking about in general terms and certainly in some detailed game examples but how many times can I give her a pass for completely misinterpreting the things she wants to criticize? That said I have no problems with her personally and I think her videos are good if even as a point of discussion themselves. I just wish I could get through one of them without going "Wait, no, that's not true at all." [QUOTE=gk99;42907842]What's she bitching about No really, she's been blabbering for like 5 minutes and has gotten 0% of her point to me.[/QUOTE] Since you are only 5 minutes in I'm assuming you are talking about the beginning which is quite clear and easy to understand. I don't get why people in this thread are having problems with it. Her analysis is simplistic.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42907974]Well shit son you better grab a fucking seat cause you ain't going anywhere anytime soon. If tentacle porn managed to survive for over a hundred years then you can be damn sure that stereotypical gender differentiation won't go away anytime soon.[/QUOTE] It will take a long time so why not start now?

[QUOTE=LeonS;42907919]yeah but some people are mean so its ok for her to do so (this is what anita defenders sound like)[/QUOTE] when was the last time you saw an insightful comment on a youtube channel. there's no point in having them because you can easily voice your opinion on literally any videogame forum, facebook, twitter, tumblr, fucking google+, MYSPACE????

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42907797]can you explain why like for real instead of making some shout from the sidelines i don't agree with everything anita sarkeoasdufashhn says, i think her videos are eh quality, but she brings up a good point. no, not in her fremfreq videos, she proves that sexism is an issue in the industry [I]through the existence of her videos.[/I] people have made stupid videos criticizing videogames since the 80's, why would anita's videos cause such an outcry if sexism WASN'T a problem?[/QUOTE] I mentioned a few earlier but I'll restate them 1) I've seen quite a few other feminists upset because she only represents her on stance on feminism and feminism isn't a hivemind 2) The whole mess with the hateful comments on youtube was basically manufactured - her previous videos before the kickstarter were on approval only - to keep those exact kind of comments out, but the moment it became useful she only allowed those comments to generate media attention. Yes, those people existed and legitimately said awful things, but she abused youtube moderation to make them look more prevalent and earn her money for her kickstarter Nobody here's denying that there's sexism in the industry (or at least I seriously hope not) but that doesn't necessarily mean that someone decrying it is a good content producer. For example, the video in this thread is a fairly incoherent mess on something I'm pretty sure everyone can agree is dumb (as in, it shouldn't happen, gender swapped versions of existing characters are not strong characters) [editline]also[/editline] [QUOTE=milkandcooki;42908021]when was the last time you saw an insightful comment on a youtube channel.[/QUOTE] Fairly often, today even. I was watching a youtube video on database programming and there was a tip from a commenter on how to change your query to avoid SQL injection attacks. Sure there's usually like ONE per video but that comment can be pretty fucking useful

[QUOTE=person11;42904781] This has been established in Feminist literature for years. It's De Beauvoir's concept of the "Second Sex" or Dubois' "Veil" in which white/male is considered "default" while black/female is the "other".[/QUOTE] [img]http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/4/8/4/214484_v1.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-responses-to-sexism-that-just-make-everything-worse/[/url] i fucking love this article.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42906633]Why doesn't she spend her time I don't know... campaigning about things that matter? Like mistreatment and oppression of women in real life? Sheeeiiit does she even play videogames?[/QUOTE] "video games don't matter but I post on a video game forum and read threads about video games"

[QUOTE=Oizen;42907900]Apparently its wrong to distinguish between males and females in video games. Which is getting a lot less common as the gaming industry moves foward. Most of her examples were from 20 years ago now? Beating a dead horse at its finest.[/QUOTE] I think you didn't actually listen to what she was saying and just dismissed her. I'm not saying what she argues is perfect but the whole point of the video wasn't just about distinguishing male and female characters. It was about Male characters as default with a variety of personalities and then adding a female character who's whole personality is that she is a stereotypical female. Also I find that having history allows for context within the argument. Sure things have definitely moved forward but as games like Scribblenauts, Wonderful 101 or even the Koopa kids in the New Super Mario Bros game show, there is still a prevalence of this trope.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908022] For example, the video in this thread is a fairly incoherent mess [/QUOTE] No it isn't. It's entirely comprehensible. I don't think it gets everything right but the points she makes are clear.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908022]I mentioned a few earlier but I'll restate them 1) I've seen quite a few other feminists upset because she only represents her on stance on feminism and feminism isn't a hivemind 2) The whole mess with the hateful comments on youtube was basically manufactured - her previous videos before the kickstarter were on approval only - to keep those exact kind of comments out, but the moment it became useful she only allowed those comments to generate media attention. Yes, those people existed and legitimately said awful things, but she abused youtube moderation to make them look more prevalent and earn her money for her kickstarter Nobody here's denying that there's sexism in the industry (or at least I seriously hope not) but that doesn't necessarily mean that someone decrying it is a good content producer. For example, the video in this thread is a fairly incoherent mess on something I'm pretty sure everyone can agree is dumb (as in, it shouldn't happen, gender swapped versions of existing characters are not strong characters)[/QUOTE] For the first thing I am not sure how other feminists would disagree with her analysis. It is so simple and basic that Radical and Liberal feminists should agree on most of the points. I guess Anita saying that women can be girly goes against the Radical notion that the concepts of femininity and masculinity should not exist... As for the second thing it's the first I heard of it. It was not just comments on videos but also a flood of other websites and ways of communicating with her that we're complicit.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;42907872]-Comments are disabled for this video- Nobody shall have a voice or opinion, besides me![/QUOTE] Putting aside the fact that content creators in general have no obligation to build platforms for their critics, I think Sarkeesian of all people on the internet has good reason to disable comments on her videos.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908022]I mentioned a few earlier but I'll restate them 1) I've seen quite a few other feminists upset because she only represents her on stance on feminism and feminism isn't a hivemind[/quote] because it's her (and her team at femfreq) analysis on games. there's no way in hell anybody can speak for the entirety of whatever the hell kind of group she's in. she doesn't need to do this, nor did she ever state she was going to. [quote]2) The whole mess with the hateful comments on youtube was basically manufactured - her previous videos before the kickstarter were on approval only - to keep those exact kind of comments out, but the moment it became useful she only allowed those comments to generate media attention. Yes, those people existed and legitimately said awful things, but she abused youtube moderation to make them look more prevalent and earn her money for her kickstarter[/quote] those comments still exist and those people are still voicing their opinion, doesn't matter if the youtube comments are disabled. she's completely open on twitter if you want to shout at her, there's a facebook page, there's tumblr discussions, and a myriad of other bullshit. she has every right to stop youtube comments, too, considering most of them are asinine garbage because there's virtually [I]no[/I] moderation. imagine if this thread was like a youtube video right now. you'd have posts like mine and yours, but you'd also have pointless shit like "lmfao idiot" or "post bob" or "GAY!!!!!." no goddamn point in being here if that happened, right? [quote]Nobody here's denying that there's sexism in the industry (or at least I seriously hope not) but that doesn't necessarily mean that someone decrying it is a good content producer. For example, the video in this thread is a fairly incoherent mess on something I'm pretty sure everyone can agree is dumb (as in, it shouldn't happen, gender swapped versions of existing characters are not strong characters)[/QUOTE] doesn't matter if her content is good or bad or not, the discussion that comes afterwards is what really matters, and it has affected a lot of stuff. anita went to talk with EA DICE about sexism and shit, and games like remember me are coming out, for example. her videos don't exist in some crazy vacuum, people are free to agree with or disagree with her points, make stupid 30 minute videos (thunderfoot), say she should get raped (AA,) or whatever the hell else people wanna do.

[QUOTE=person11;42907876]I think I want to give white guys enough credit for them to choose White and Male when making a character. It's not that hard.[/QUOTE] [IMG]http://puu.sh/5mxyF.jpg[/IMG]

also i wanted to put out this last picture from the article because it fits into person11's argument that he has been having: [img]http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/4/8/6/214486_v1.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42908036][img]http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/4/8/4/214484_v1.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-responses-to-sexism-that-just-make-everything-worse/[/url] i fucking love this article.[/QUOTE] lmfao, don't read the comments on facebook and cracked. they're a goddamn joke. i made a journal quoting my favorite ones on my FA if you're interested in going to that gross site [url=http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/5257149/]here[/url] not entirely on topic, but hey. sexism.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908022]1) I've seen quite a few other feminists upset because she only represents her on stance on feminism and feminism isn't a hivemind[/QUOTE] Well, of course she only represents her own stance. She never claimed to be a voice for all feminists out there. [QUOTE=Elspin;42908022]2) The whole mess with the hateful comments on youtube was basically manufactured - her previous videos before the kickstarter were on approval only - to keep those exact kind of comments out, but the moment it became useful she only allowed those comments to generate media attention. Yes, those people existed and legitimately said awful things, but she abused youtube moderation to make them look more prevalent and earn her money for her kickstarter[/QUOTE] Since when is showing hateful comments that real people have genuinely made to her of their own volition manufacturing? And how is opening up YouTube comments abusing moderation? If you're saying she selectively published hateful comments on that video and hid reasonable ones, that's simply false; I was there, and the comments weren't moderated at all in that time. [QUOTE=Elspin;42908022]For example, the video in this thread is a fairly incoherent mess on something I'm pretty sure everyone can agree is dumb (as in, it shouldn't happen, gender swapped versions of existing characters are not strong characters)[/QUOTE] Seemed perfectly coherent to me?