Ms. Male Character - Tropes vs Women in Video Games - General

[QUOTE=person11;42908085]For the first thing I am not sure how other feminists would disagree with her analysis. It is so simple and basic that Radical and Liberal feminists should agree on most of the points.[/QUOTE] one example counter-video i once saw from a feminist talked about how negative fem freq's videos are about female characters because she walks into the discussion with an already negative bias, and then gives great examples of why certain characters anita has deemed "sexist" are actually strong, well written, and great female characters. her analysis is so simple and that's the problem; the issue is [b]complicated and cannot be analyzed so basically[/b].

[QUOTE=Raidyr;42907768]Again speaking as someone who agrees with maybe 50% of what Sarkeesian says, I don't think it's fair to judge the massive and nuanced socio-political ideology and movement known as feminism off of one person's youtube series about tropes in video games. I'm not a feminist either, it just doesn't seem fair.[/QUOTE] I'm not judging feminism at all, I'm all for it. I'm judging how she masquerades as this great contemporary feminist for her own gain. [QUOTE=milkandcooki;42907797]can you explain why like for real instead of making some shout from the sidelines i don't agree with everything anita sarkeoasdufashhn says, i think her videos are eh quality, but she brings up a good point. no, not in her fremfreq videos, she proves that sexism is an issue in the industry [I]through the existence of her videos.[/I] people have made stupid videos criticizing videogames since the 80's, why would anita's videos cause such an outcry if sexism WASN'T a problem?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=person11;42907854]While I sometimes question her methodology and structure, and while I lament her videos' existence (It is really sad the video game community needs to be spoonfed the sociological equivalent of 2+2=4), I think she has not said anything wrong yet.[/QUOTE] I never said sexism wasn't a problem at all but fair enough about me not making a point on why she's full of shit, so I'll drag up this post I made on the subject while back. [QUOTE=Bread_Baron;42204378]Anita Sarkeesian uses feminism to stay relevant, she just shoves some sort of agenda into everything she says and boom! Feminism! Take this golden quote about Mirror's Edge for example: "I can relate to a lot of fellow female gamers who did not get into this game due to its difficult control scheme" What's that got to do with feminism or the representation of women in videogames? Nothing. Finding a game too hard is not exclusive to women, and she's accomplishing the complete opposite of her supposed goal for equality by claiming it's too difficult for female gamers.[/QUOTE] Like I said, she's furthering the inequality because what she says pretty much sums up as "Mirror's Edge is too hard for girls".

I'm really glad we can all show how accepting and respectful we are and how we think everyone should be treated with respect. Calling each idiots and such is really showing how tolerant all of you are of not only the other sex, but all people in general. The last three pages have inspired me and made me regain hope in the world seeing that all of you are too busy arguing on a forum to actually get up and do something about the problem.

[QUOTE=person11;42908085]For the first thing I am not sure how other feminists would disagree with her analysis. It is so simple and basic that Radical and Liberal feminists should agree on most of the points. I guess Anita saying that women can be girly goes against the Radical notion that the concepts of femininity and masculinity should not exist... As for the second thing it's the first I heard of it. It was not just comments on videos but also a flood of other websites and ways of communicating with her that we're complicit.[/QUOTE] It was pointed out in a video posted on facepunch awhile ago by a woman who used to be a fan of her until she used that manipulative tactic to earn money for her campaign. As for some examples on other feminists that dislike her I'm not exactly a historian of all the posts before of feminists complaining about her but there's still [url=http://thelearnedfangirl.com/2013/02/24/im-a-feminist-gamerand-im-over-anita-sarkeesian/]a few you can find around google[/url]

[QUOTE=person11;42907964]I mean the randomness would be calibrated by the developers. Some games already start out randomized and it's never freakish.[/QUOTE] That wouldn't be truly random. But then again random doesn't really exist so whatever.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;42908001]you are talking about her video you are not being barred from this. you are talking about the video right now. you are voicing your opinion. this is not censorship.[/QUOTE] Commenting directly on a video on Youtube and having discussions about it is a more direct way of sharing opinions and be part of the topic. Everyone watching the video on Youtube has no way of getting involved, there is no way of direct communication if the video is spread over isolated forums or a widespread exchange of opinion. Especially with such a topic, it wouldn't be bad to have comments open to anyone.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908171]It was pointed out in a video posted on facepunch awhile ago by a woman who used to be a fan of her until she used that manipulative tactic to earn money for her campaign. As for some examples on other feminists that dislike her I'm not exactly a historian of all the posts before of feminists complaining about her but there's still [url=http://thelearnedfangirl.com/2013/02/24/im-a-feminist-gamerand-im-over-anita-sarkeesian/]a few you can find around google[/url][/QUOTE] [url=http://leopirate.com/post/44004741869/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games-a-backers-perspective]There is also this blog post from someone who used to be a fan of Anita.[/url]

[QUOTE=TheJoey;42908122]one example counter-video i once saw from a feminist talked about how negative fem freq's videos are about female characters because she walks into the discussion with an already negative bias, and then gives great examples of why certain characters anita has deemed "sexist" are actually strong, well written, and great female characters. her analysis is so simple and that's the problem; the issue is [B]complicated and cannot be analyzed so basically[/B].[/QUOTE] But she never designates certain characters "sexist"; she critiques larger trends, she doesn't say specific characters or games are bad. It's no wonder you think her analysis is so simple if you're oversimplifying her analysis.

[QUOTE=person11;42908085]For the first thing I am not sure how other feminists would disagree with her analysis. It is so simple and basic that Radical and Liberal feminists should agree on most of the points. I guess Anita saying that women can be girly goes against the Radical notion that the concepts of femininity and masculinity should not exist... As for the second thing it's the first I heard of it. It was not just comments on videos but also a flood of other websites and ways of communicating with her that we're complicit.[/QUOTE] people who actually know what feminism means and the basics of feminist theory will probably know all her points intuitively. like you said before, this is a bit insulting to gamers like me because this shit should be so god damn obvious and straightforward. idk why anita sarkeesian needs to spoonfeed these simple concepts and why it's so hard to accept them. they aren't complicated concepts.

There would be a lot less sexism in the world if more people like Anita were allowed to post their analyses of feminist theory without being lynched by the internet. [editline]18th November 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=yawmwen;42908230]people who actually know what feminism means and the basics of feminist theory will probably know all her points intuitively. like you said before, this is a bit insulting to gamers like me because this shit should be so god damn obvious and straightforward. idk why anita sarkeesian needs to spoonfeed these simple concepts and why it's so hard to accept them. they aren't complicated concepts.[/QUOTE] Apparently they are, see: every anita thread made on this forum.

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42908241]There would be a lot less sexism in the world if more people like Anita were allowed to post their analyses of feminist theory without being lynched by the internet. [editline]18th November 2013[/editline] Apparently they are, see: every anita thread made on this forum.[/QUOTE] You know you can't lynch someone over the internet, right like, I can't verbally assault you because that requires physical force and I'm not far enough along in my jedi training to transmit physical force through my voice it's the same concept

Here, let's have a chart of how you can represent gender in games: [u]_______|Masculine___|Feminine Female:|"Ms. Male"___|sexist stereotypes[/u] __Male:|not mentioned|homophobic joke If I make a game, I'll have a gender choice for the player and present two completely identical characters: both either feminine or masculine. As far as I can tell, that is the only thing that would make Anita happy. It's great that there's someone speaking out against bad female representation in games, but Anita just picks things apart without offering solutions. She makes the problem worse by expressing her opinions in such an unproductive way.

What is a figure of speech

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42908230]people who actually know what feminism means and the basics of feminist theory will probably know all her points intuitively. like you said before, this is a bit insulting to gamers like me because this shit should be so god damn obvious and straightforward. idk why anita sarkeesian needs to spoonfeed these simple concepts and why it's so hard to accept them. they aren't complicated concepts.[/QUOTE] I would find it insulting if she were explaining it to us only, but to the entire video gaming community it makes perfect sense for her to be this simple, especially considering the horrible things said about her by gamers. She needs to spoonfeed us this stuff because we (the video gaming community) are mostly babies.

[QUOTE=person11;42908325]I would find it insulting if she were explaining it to us only, but to the entire video gaming community it makes perfect sense for her to be this simple, especially considering the horrible things said about her by gamers. She needs to spoonfeed us this stuff because we (the video gaming community) are mostly babies.[/QUOTE] I kinda feel like she's preaching to the choir though, I mean it's not like she's making an educational video to be shown in schools - who is the target audience? Who is going to go out of their way to watch 25 minute videos on feminism in gaming that [i]doesn't already understand[/i] the very basic issues she's describing?

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908171]It was pointed out in a video posted on facepunch awhile ago by a woman who used to be a fan of her until she used that manipulative tactic to earn money for her campaign. As for some examples on other feminists that dislike her I'm not exactly a historian of all the posts before of feminists complaining about her but there's still [url=http://thelearnedfangirl.com/2013/02/24/im-a-feminist-gamerand-im-over-anita-sarkeesian/]a few you can find around google[/url][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=TheJoey;42908200][url=http://leopirate.com/post/44004741869/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games-a-backers-perspective]There is also this blog post from someone who used to be a fan of Anita.[/url][/QUOTE] I see complaining about her not making her videos quickly enough and complaining about her not opening up YouTube comments. Gee, never heard those before.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908361]I kinda feel like she's preaching to the choir though, I mean it's not like she's making an educational video to be shown in schools[/QUOTE] That is actually one of her target audiences IIRC. EDIT: Automeeerge!

[QUOTE=SgtCr4zyGunz;42908284]What is a figure of speech[/QUOTE] it's just that there seems to be this odd thing where you take youtube comments actually seriously for any period of time comparing them to lynching just seems like a really really far stretch is all considering that no one anywhere is harmed ever which is the main negative component of a lynching

[QUOTE=Tweevle;42908368]I see complaining about her not making her videos quickly enough and complaining about her not opening up YouTube comments. Gee, never heard those before.[/QUOTE] Then maybe you should have read the articles? I mean I know it's standard form to argue on the internet without paying any attention to what the opposing side is saying but you could at least pretend :v: [QUOTE=the one i linked]Here’s my problem with this. Dishonored doesn’t have many “strong female” characters … except for the Empress, the Empress’s daughter Emily, and Callista Curnow. Yes, the Empress gets killed in the first five minutes of the game and Emily needs rescuing (she is 10, after all), but Callista makes a point of doing several things in the course of the game that tell you she’s quite a capable human being. One of the most powerful figures in the game is female (though insane – Granny Rags), and the nation appears to be a matriarchy. Yes, there are a lot of female victims in the game, but there are just as many if not more male victims. In fact, pretty much everyone is a victim at one point or another. And yes, there are female villains, but there are male villains, too. Sarkeesian seems to dismiss Dishonored as misogynistic simply because it doesn’t contain the stereotype of the “strong modern female” in a game that is about how everyone is at the mercy of arbitrary fate in the form of rampaging plague rats. My point isn’t that games aren’t misogynistic – there are far more of them that are than that aren’t, and some of them are really blatant – nor is it that someone doesn’t need to have the serious conversation about representations of gender (especially women) in games. I think both those things are true. But if Sarkeesian is going to dismiss a complex and intelligent game like Dishonored out of hand, then I have my doubts about her overall ability to be that voice, at least to the degree that we as an internet gaming community seem to have accepted.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=person11;42908325]I would find it insulting if she were explaining it to us only, but to the entire video gaming community it makes perfect sense for her to be this simple, especially considering the horrible things said about her by gamers. She needs to spoonfeed us this stuff because we (the video gaming community) are mostly babies.[/QUOTE] Dude, you really need to get that inferiority complex examined. I mean that can't be healthy, seriously. (and protip you shouldn't aim videos towards those horrible horrible people because 1 they won't watch a 25 minute video about feminism and 2 they don't watch 25 minute videos)

The thing is people equate pointing out sexism as saying the creators and consumers are consciously sexist so you get this knee-jerk reaction. Looking back, Disney films have obviously racist content. Disney was not a racist though. And if you criticized Disney films for this content people would have the same reaction back then. However with time we've progressed enough to see that it was obviously charged and hardly anyone would deny it now. In the future don't be surprised if people look back on our generation of games in the same way: great and classic but tragically flawed by the attitudes of their time.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908408]the one i linked posted: [/QUOTE] Saw that too, but that's really a non-point. This person doesn't agree that Dishonored doesn't have good female representation. Okay, so what? That doesn't say anything about the quality of her videos, just that this person disagrees with one of her opinions (which isn't even necessarily her opinion, just what she's extrapolated from a tweet of all things). And again, it's the same sort of thing we've seen a hundred times before ("I don't agree with her interpretation of X, therefore all of her interpretations are wrong and her series sucks") And incidentally, while I love Dishonored, I agree with Sarkeesian's comment. Its representation of women wasn't all that great IMO.

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42908418]The thing is people equate pointing out sexism as saying the creators and consumers are consciously sexist so you get this knee-jerk reaction. Looking back, Disney films have obviously racist content. Disney was not a racist though. And if you criticized Disney films for this content people would have the same reaction back then. However with time we've progressed enough to see that it was obviously charged and hardly anyone would deny it now. In the future don't be surprised if people look back on our generation of games in the same way: great and classic but tragically flawed by the attitudes of their time.[/QUOTE] The biggest problem with addressing sexism is people take shit way too fucking personally. Stop getting so personally offended when people point out that yes, something you did/said is in fact pretty sexist.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;42908416]Dude, you really need to get that inferiority complex examined. I mean that can't be healthy, seriously. (and protip you shouldn't aim videos towards those horrible horrible people because 1 they won't watch a 25 minute video about feminism and 2 they don't watch 25 minute videos)[/QUOTE] I and yawnmen and plenty of people in this thread understand the video perfectly well. So I am insulting most of the video game community but not me or most of the people here. Also you are right that the people who most need convincing will never see this video, probably only those terribly done response videos.

[QUOTE=Tweevle;42908482]Saw that too, but that's really a non-point. This person doesn't agree that Dishonored doesn't have good female representation. Okay, so what? That doesn't say anything about the quality of her videos, just that this person disagrees with one of her opinions (which isn't even necessarily her opinion, just what she's extrapolated from a tweet of all things). And incidentally, while I love Dishonored, I agree with Sarkeesian's comment. Its representation of women wasn't all that great IMO.[/QUOTE] So you ask which feminists disagree with her, multiple examples are given, and you dismiss them based on an incorrect statement. Then, once your statement is proven incorrect, you say "well so she disagrees so what it doesn't matter" what do you even expect us to say to that v:v:v is it so hard to understand that some people agree the industry has issues with sexism but don't think anita is a good person to use as the poster child for feminism in video games

[QUOTE=Venezuelan;42908418]The thing is people equate pointing out sexism as saying the creators and consumers are consciously sexist so you get this knee-jerk reaction. Looking back, Disney films have obviously racist content. Disney was not a racist though. And if you criticized Disney films for this content people would have the same reaction back then. However with time we've progressed enough to see that it was obviously charged and hardly anyone would deny it now. In the future don't be surprised if people look back on our generation of games in the same way: great and classic but tragically flawed by the attitudes of their time.[/QUOTE] Uhhhhhhh I'm pretty sure he was a sexist and racist actually. But you are right about how our generation's work will be viewed though. Admiration and criticism. Sorta like appreciating your grandfather's story about D-day without hating him for his occasionally racist comment.

Why do you all care anyway? Ms Pacman has lipstick and a bow. Clearly this is worth crying over.

[QUOTE=Elspin;42908517]So you ask which feminists disagree with her,[/QUOTE] That was someone else actually, but whatever. :v: [QUOTE=Elspin;42908517]multiple examples are given, and you dismiss them based on an incorrect statement. Then, once your statement is proven incorrect, you say "well so she disagrees so what it doesn't matter"[/QUOTE] I don't know what I said was incorrect? I said that I saw complaining about her not making her videos quickly enough and not opening YouTube comments, and those are in the articles ... My point is basically that I don't really care if feminists or previous supporters are criticising her or her work if it's the same lousy criticism you get anywhere else. I don't care who's making the points as long as they're sensible and valid. [QUOTE=Elspin;42908517]what do you even expect us to say to that v:v:v is it so hard to understand that some people agree the industry has issues with sexism but don't think anita is a good person to use as the poster child for feminism in video games[/QUOTE] Not at all. I don't think she's perfect by any means, but at the moment she's what we've got and I think she could do a much worse job, all things considered. It's not like she asked to be the poster child, she was just the first to step up to the plate (or at least the first able to get wide discussion of the problem going) and for that I give her credit.

[QUOTE=person11;42908522]Uhhhhhhh I'm pretty sure he was a sexist and racist actually. But you are right about how our generation's work will be viewed though. Admiration and criticism. Sorta like appreciating your grandfather's story about D-day without hating him for his occasionally racist comment.[/QUOTE] He was as racist as the rest of society, I just mean he wasn't in any way exceptional, and while he judged based on race he was past the point where it was a conscious hatred thing