Native American Confronts Protesters on Illegal Immigration - LiveLeak - General

[QUOTE=Zeke129;39503287]Equating the oppressiveness of white settlers in North America to Mexicans neat[/QUOTE] Well initially the white settlers were oppressed, which is why they went over. Unfortunately, most of them were religious loonies who founded experimental societies whilst all the natives died off around them due to competition from European animals, plants and microbes. Once the population started to grow in these colonies, that was the final nail in the coffin.

The natives at the start actually treated the Europeans terribly while the Europeans only wanted peace.

I'd be proud to be the kid in that carriage.

[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;39502147]Where I live a lot of people have little respect for natives. They get a lot of free privileges from the government like free housing/education/utilities/ect and all they do with this is become alcoholics and live off it like welfare. Don't get me wrong, I know this is just a minority of them but a lot of stories go around here like this one guy who moved into a freshly build and furnished house that was given to him and he tore up the hardwood floor in the living room and took a shit in it then got it all repaired free.[/QUOTE] To be fair, this is in no small part because of the absolute rape of the culture. I mean, there was active suppression of their culture and people, by the government throughout the ages. We actively subverted their culture and their way of life until we had purposefully filled it with vices that they had no concepts of and had no ability to control or limit. Alcohol was used as a weapon against them for centuries, as was money. We knew that once we placed these temptations there that there would be no way for them to check the results. Fast forward till today, and you still have that cultural shock. The majority of them are dirt poor not because of laziness or government welfare, but because their areas have been purposefully economically depressed and isolated by the markets since the 1960s. The only difference between the situation of the urban poor and the native American poor is that the government actually recognizes their crimes with the natives and is quick to throw money at the problem instead of seeking to actually rehabilitate and aid the populace with what's actually needed, which is a step more than they do with any other minority at the very least. Problem is that step isn't helping, because all they're doing is feeding the degeneration.

[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;39490162]The protesters are dumb. The self proclaimed native american is dumb. People have been fucking each other out of land since the beginning of time. Its like having someone of Gaulish decent yell at Europeans for taking their land. Native Americans fought in the white mens wars, they wore white men clothing, they killed their own herds of buffalo for white men guns. History isn't black and white.[/QUOTE] I think the native american was saying that stuff because the protesters were trying to use the claim that they were are the original americans or something as an argument which is dumb.

[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;39491329]No. Do you really think they killed their own buffalo for skin because they were forced to? No. White people gave them shitty guns in trade for skins. When guns broke, they had to go back to the white people to get them fixed for more skins. Native Americans got owned over and over again. They assisted colonies in wars not because they had to, but because they were either stupid or they wanted more European goods. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Indian_War[/url] The native american culture was deep in the trashcan way before the mass integration attempts.[/QUOTE] This is an ahistorical bullshit colonial reading of history. If you honestly believe that Native Americans are at all to blame for their current social position / standing relative to the fucking horrible atrocities committed by those of Anglo-Saxon descent (i.e: "the white man") then I don't even know what to say to you besides that you should actually read the primary and secondary sources instead of making uninformed opinions based on a wikipedia article. Some forms of Native American society were really brutal (see Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne), but that brutality honestly paled in comparison to the massive onslaught, ongoing and unending (AND FYI: still fucking continuing to this day) waged against them. Our tools of war against Native Americans were once guns, now they have become bullshit legal codes that relegate them to reservations and deny tribal sovereignty. Your argument is akin to "If she didn't want to be raped, why was she wearing such slutty clothes?" and its fucking offensive.

[QUOTE=north korea;39490027][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QiUhT2o.jpg[/IMG] Off-topic; Native Americans are not natives to America either. They are Asians who arrived at the continent from Asia through Bering Strait. Some people even call them Turkic.[/QUOTE] This kind of bullshit Historical revisionism really irks me. There is no parallel between immigration today and white settlers and manifest destiny hundreds of years ago. And trying to justify the horrible shit you're trying to perpetuate with this as a justification makes you a bit of a cunt imo

[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;39490162] People have been fucking each other out of land since the beginning of time. Its like having someone of Gaulish decent yell at Europeans for taking their land. [/QUOTE] If they were true Gauls they wouldn't yell at the protesters, they would strip naked and eviscerate them.

[QUOTE=theevilldeadII;39490299]well at the end of it all we all came from the same place Africa over Millions of year's of ago[/QUOTE] Earth orbits the sun

[QUOTE=smeismastger;39506272]Earth orbits the sun[/QUOTE] bollocks

[QUOTE=Flameon;39505399]This is an ahistorical bullshit colonial reading of history. If you honestly believe that Native Americans are at all to blame for their current social position / standing relative to the fucking horrible atrocities committed by those of Anglo-Saxon descent (i.e: "the white man") then I don't even know what to say to you besides that you should actually read the primary and secondary sources instead of making uninformed opinions based on a wikipedia article.[/quote] In reality you can only really indirectly blame the arrival of Europeans. It was the other lifeforms they brought with them that really destroyed the Indians. [quote]Some forms of Native American society were really brutal (see Empire of the Summer Moon by S.C. Gwynne), but that brutality honestly paled in comparison to the massive onslaught, ongoing and unending (AND FYI: still fucking continuing to this day) waged against them.[/quote] Not really, warfare before the advent of the state was always more horrific. [img_thumb]http://www.edge.org/images/sp-Slide011.jpg[/img_thumb] Death rates were also really high under Aztec rule. At the very least, violent death declined with the arrival of the Europeans. [quote]Our tools of war against Native Americans were once guns, now they have become bullshit legal codes that relegate them to reservations and deny tribal sovereignty.[/quote] Firstly, the Europeans had barely any guns to start with (many of the Spanish who arrived also brought crossbows and swords), and firearms were notoriously unreliable until the late 17th century when natives began to trade for them. By that stage, ecological changes due to the arrival of old world lifeforms had already set in motion the process of the end of the Indians. Economics further fucked them over, most especially with population growth, the fur trade, the development of industry, trade and infrastructure spelled their doom. [quote]Your argument is akin to "If she didn't want to be raped, why was she wearing such slutty clothes?" and its fucking offensive.[/QUOTE] No it isn't. They weren't stupid, but were acting rationally in those circumstances. They knew that having access to European markets was a clear advantage and helped them to survive as their old methods were either outcompeted or incompatible. Those that saw how things would pan out integrated into American society because it seemed to be the best choice. The rest fled westwards as they became increasingly isolated and backward.

Have you guys heard of Idle No More? Imagine this guy, but thousands of him, all protesting against the government It's happening right now, and it's on the brink of something great ... something big

[QUOTE=smeismastger;39506272]Earth orbits the sun[/QUOTE] heresy

[QUOTE=Sharker;39504868]The natives at the start actually treated the Europeans terribly while the Europeans only wanted peace.[/QUOTE] that's a hard generalization to make. it varied depending on the settlement and the bordering tribes. some were more warlike and were more likely to raid european settlements; others were fairly peaceful and interested in trade and co-existence.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39510278][TEXT][/QUOTE] Holy shit I was not aware that there were so many European apologists on Facepunch. 1.) The atrocities that befell Native Americans was not limited to "Europeans brought disease that they didn't know would effect natives :'(". Massive genocide, relocation, and economic servitude marked the History of Native's encounter with Europeans. I am not going to find you all the journals/books that should be mandatory reading for you, but here is a place to start: Ward Churchill's A Little Matter of Genocide: Holocaust And Denial In The Americas 1492 To The Present, Taiaia Alfred's Peace, , Power, Righteousness: An Indigenous Manifesto, Nancy-Shepper Hughes' Ishi's Brain, Ishi's Ashes: Anthropology and Genocide. [URL="http://academic.udayton.edu/health/syllabi/bioterrorism/00intro02.htm"]FYI, here is a freebie: Bioterror[/URL] 2.) Good job producing a worthless chart about GLOBAL percentages of death from STATE VIOLENCE. What were the Jews complaining about during the Holocaust? Didn't they know that global death percentages from warfare are lower now than ever before? Here's a fact: ―in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust [URL="http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415275095/"](P. 381)[/URL]. How about producing a chart talking about percentages of NATIVES killed by State warfare :) 3.) "Fled westward" That's a good euphemism for FORCED FUCKING MIGRATION! I'm sorry if I sound abrasive, but TAKE A STEP BACK AND REALIZE THE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING: You are arguing in support of genocide dude, what the fuck is wrong with you? Call a spade a spade. [editline]8th February 2013[/editline] FYI: There is so much fucked up shit STILL HAPPENING on Native lands. Tribal "councils" are not even TRIBAL RUN, they are appointed by the U.S. Department of the Interior and they are super fucking corrupt and sell tribal land to corporations. Did you know that a tribal court cannot fine a corporation? The most it can do is banish it from tribal lands. So what happens are that corporations move in, set up shop, DICK THE PEOPLE, then leave after making a huge killing. Uranium. Fucking. Mining.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39510278] The rest fled westwards as they became increasingly isolated and backward.[/QUOTE] You really are the densest human being alive aren't you. Look up the trail of tears.

I don't know about any of you, but I was born in the US which makes me native. I didn't take any land from anyone. I'm not responsible for whatever my ancestors did. If people want to live in the US, I'm fine with it, but I think the US government at least deserves to know who's in the country.

[QUOTE=Flameon;39512758]Holy shit I was not aware that there were so many European apologists on Facepunch.[/quote] No, I'm not a apologist. I think that a lot of what the American government did during the latter part of the 19th century was pretty awful towards the natives. Point I am trying to make is that they were already in trouble beforehand, and that the genocidal actions you speak of didn't really happen til the 19th century (as for before that date, don't mistake incompetence for malice). [quote]1.) The atrocities that befell Native Americans was not limited to "Europeans brought disease that they didn't know would effect natives :'(". Massive genocide, relocation, and economic servitude marked the History of Native's encounter with Europeans. I am not going to find you all the journals/books that should be mandatory reading for you, but here is a place to start: Ward Churchill's A Little Matter of Genocide: Holocaust And Denial In The Americas 1492 To The Present, Taiaia Alfred's Peace, , Power, Righteousness: An Indigenous Manifesto, Nancy-Shepper Hughes' Ishi's Brain, Ishi's Ashes: Anthropology and Genocide. [URL="http://academic.udayton.edu/health/syllabi/bioterrorism/00intro02.htm"]FYI, here is a freebie: Bioterror[/URL][/quote] Can you actually provide an argument instead of rhetoric so I can actually see your points? [quote]2.) Good job producing a worthless chart about GLOBAL percentages of death from STATE VIOLENCE.[/quote] There was non-state and non-global violence too. I don't know what you are on about. [quote]What were the Jews complaining about during the Holocaust? Didn't they know that global death percentages from warfare are lower now than ever before?[/quote] You are using an emotional argument. True, that as a percentage of the total population, less people are dying in modern wars, but you are using fallacious reasoning. [quote]Here's a fact: ―in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust [URL="http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780415275095/"](P. 381)[/URL].[/quote] What is the "native american genocide"? You have to be really silly to think that Europeans systematically killed natives for the giggles. And if they did wipe them all out, how did a few hundred people manage such a thing? They often worked together and against each other in a complex web of alliances or pacts. The Spanish didn't finish conquering Mexico till the late 1600s, and they had to rely on the people who already hated the Aztecs. [quote]How about producing a chart talking about percentages of NATIVES killed by State warfare :)[/quote] I already gave you a chart. Have another. [img]http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/tg/image/1346/43/1346435907897.png[/img] Violence decreased with the arrival of the state. [quote]3.) "Fled westward" That's a good euphemism for FORCED FUCKING MIGRATION![/quote] Forced migration didn't properly get going until the 1800s. Before that, they were forced to not by Europeans, but by bees, earthworms, rodents, pigs and disease. The forced migrations are what I take issue with, but you can't blame the Europeans for "systematic genocide". [quote]I'm sorry if I sound abrasive, but TAKE A STEP BACK AND REALIZE THE IMPLICATIONS OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING: You are arguing in support of genocide dude, what the fuck is wrong with you? Call a spade a spade.[/quote] This is complete intellectual dishonesty. You are trying to claim I support genocide so as to demolish my argument so you can push whatever silly claims you have about history that are misinformed at best. [quote]FYI: There is so much fucked up shit STILL HAPPENING on Native lands. Tribal "councils" are not even TRIBAL RUN, they are appointed by the U.S. Department of the Interior and they are super fucking corrupt and sell tribal land to corporations. Did you know that a tribal court cannot fine a corporation? The most it can do is banish it from tribal lands. So what happens are that corporations move in, set up shop, DICK THE PEOPLE, then leave after making a huge killing. Uranium. Fucking. Mining.[/QUOTE] I condone that behavior as well. I don't see how my argument supports it. [editline]8th February 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;39512785]You really are the densest human being alive aren't you. Look up the trail of tears.[/QUOTE] The fleeing process began some time before that. Point is that it wasn't directly Europeans at first, but was actually rooted in biology and economics. I.e the 16th through 18th centuries. Only once you hit the 1800s does the actions of malice (such as the trail of tears) start to get common.

This is going to be my last post because I honestly feel myself become dumber every time I read one of your posts. I also just want to say that I find it hilarious that your entire argument is based on statistics of deaths from human action versus biological means and you haven't pointed to a single source (nor even mentioned one) that makes any of these claims. This is my problem with people like you who cherry pick data. Do you know how to read? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE DATA ON YOUR CHARTS INDICATES?? 1.) All of these civilizations were not located in North America (save for the last one), which is what this entire fucking debate has been about. So good job producing useless information. 2.) It is deaths based on WARFARE, which obviously does not include the tools of ECONOMIC WARFARE that the U.S. has conducted and still conducts against natives. For example: the trial of tears and death from starvation or small-pox would not be included in this graph because that genocide would not be considered STATE WARFARE. Do you know what structural violence is? Please educate yourself before you make yourself look dumber. 3.) It is deaths of the POPULATION OF THAT SPECIFIC CIVILIZATION from warfare. This chart does not even talk about the percentage of OTHER SOCIETIES that the civilization killed. Oh? You mean that a low percentage of U.S. or European citizens die in war relative to other deaths? No. Fucking. Shit. Because we were really good at KILLING, as opposed to getting KILLED by Natives. If you read the link to the academic article I posted (I imagine you didn't because you obviously prefer to live in ignorance!) you'd know that we KNOWINGLY contaminated Native American with diseases such as small box because we were AWARE that they did not have immunity to it. Disease is not ACCIDENTAL when it happens when Europeans FORCIBLY EVICT natives from their land. If you read any of the sources I provided you, then you would know that the U.S. army gave onus for citizens to settle west and push Natives to extinction. Read. The. Fucking. Literature. Good job downplaying genocide! I feel obligated to vote dumb on every post you will make in the future.

[QUOTE=Flameon;39518022]This is going to be my last post because I honestly feel myself become dumber every time I read one of your posts.[/quote] Thankfully, I am immune to such effects, given that I haven't become a vegetable in the process of reading yours. [quote]I also just want to say that I find it hilarious that your entire argument is based on statistics of deaths from human action versus biological means and you haven't pointed to a single source (nor even mentioned one) that makes any of these claims. This is my problem with people like you who cherry pick data.[/quote] It's very difficult to argue because you aren't actually making any arguments besides "you support genocide". However, I will point to the books that I read which helped formulate my opinions. You tell me to read, so I guess I should do the same thing. Reading is good afterall. [url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/1493-Europes-Discovery-Americas-Revolutionized/dp/1847082459[/url] [url]http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Better-Angels-Our-Nature/dp/0141034645[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Myths_of_the_Spanish_Conquest[/url] These books would probably argue that systematic genocide of the American Indians the way you describe it, is hilariously exaggerated and over-extrapolated. [quote]Do you know how to read? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT THE DATA ON YOUR CHARTS INDICATES?? 1.) All of these civilizations were not located in North America (save for the last one), which is what this entire fucking debate has been about. So good job producing useless information.[/quote] Except non-state conflicts are pretty much the same globally. They have incredibly high death rates, and this is true for the Americas as well. [quote]2.) It is deaths based on WARFARE, which obviously does not include the tools of ECONOMIC WARFARE that the U.S. has conducted and still conducts against natives. For example: the trial of tears and death from starvation or small-pox would not be included in this graph because that genocide would not be considered STATE WARFARE.[/quote] Except my point is that the decline happening to the Indians was an ongoing process well in motion before the United States began. Economics and biology certainly fucked them over, but indirectly. Most population decline occurred due to disease, changing ecology and much much later, the growth of European settlements. I find it absurd how these settlements which were founded by religious loonies, political refugees, or businessmen, which could barely survive, somehow exploited and oppressed the Indians. [quote]Do you know what structural violence is? Please educate yourself before you make yourself look dumber.[/quote] How does it relate to the decline of Indians from about 1500 to 1800? [quote]3.) It is deaths of the POPULATION OF THAT SPECIFIC CIVILIZATION from warfare. This chart does not even talk about the percentage of OTHER SOCIETIES that the civilization killed. Oh? You mean that a low percentage of U.S. or European citizens die in war relative to other deaths? No. Fucking. Shit. Because we were really good at KILLING, as opposed to getting KILLED by Natives.[/quote] Except Indians are counted in population records as well. Secondly, what purpose is there to systematically killing off loads of Indians? It is malice or incompetence? [quote]If you read the link to the academic article I posted (I imagine you didn't because you obviously prefer to live in ignorance!) you'd know that we KNOWINGLY contaminated Native American with diseases such as small box because we were AWARE that they did not have immunity to it.[/quote] Except smallpox (what is small box?) had existed in the Americas 250 years prior to that. Try harder. [quote]Disease is not ACCIDENTAL when it happens when Europeans FORCIBLY EVICT natives from their land.[/quote] They didn't forcibly evict them. The manpower necessary to do so was not possible for centuries. [quote]If you read any of the sources I provided you, then you would know that the U.S. army gave onus for citizens to settle west and push Natives to extinction.[/quote] I genuinely doubt the purpose of the land grants was to eradicate the Indians. [quote]Read. The. Fucking. Literature.[/quote] I only read literature which pertains to my own pre-selected biases. [quote]Good job downplaying genocide![/quote] I'm not downplaying it, it's that you are exaggerating it with incredibly loud language that lacks substance. [quote]I feel obligated to vote dumb on every post you will make in the future.[/QUOTE] Well, I could do so as well, but doing that would be me regressing into my 12 year old self.