Fallout 4 critique: The abortion of RPG mechanics (Self posted, looking for suggestions)
313 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49359923]I can definantly say I didn't like skills in New Vegas.
Nothing more shitty than doing that one quest where you need 95 speech and you can only muster, even after doing all the drugs in the wastelands, 94 speech.
Credit to Beth for Speech checks being % chances so you have SOME chance of the diplomatic solution.
But yeah Both 3 and New Vegas had the problem of using an OLD skill system that needed change. I don't think Beth didn't know what that change was in time, so they just removed it for Fallout 4 at the moment.[/QUOTE]
You being too casual to finish a mission doesn't make the game bad. Especially when there is always another way to do it.
It's also amazing how you rate objective facts as dumb.
Maybe RPGs aren't for you if you don't like DND or speech checks.
[QUOTE=Metist;49359994]You being too casual to finish a mission doesn't make the game bad. Especially when there is always another way to do it.
It's also amazing how you rate objective facts as dumb.
Maybe RPGs aren't for you if you don't like DND or speech checks.[/QUOTE]
I just think it's too in the way of the actual game.
And don't be condescending just because I prefer to enjoy things on an internet that love complaining.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49359961]Excuse me.
You just made an opinion as fact by saying the skills were dumb.
[editline]21st December 2015[/editline]
Like, you just called yourself out in less than two posts because you have this hate boner for the skills system because for some reason you think everyone is equally proficient in the use of weapons. Hell, the new 'perk' system basically does the same thing as skills but just gives you perks instead.
Its literally a dumbed down version of the skills system with several skills removed outright in their entirety.[/QUOTE]
Oh sorry I forgot to preface ever minor statement as "in my opinion".
To me, it was dumb. If broke a key element of the game. Gunplay. Removing the skills may be "dumbing down" but how is that a bad thing if I personally think it worked better to allow me a better way of playing many different specialization a?
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49360104]I just think it's too in the way of the actual game.
And don't be condescending just because I prefer to enjoy things on an internet that love complaining.[/QUOTE]
Are you seriously saying that dialog and stat management are in the way of "The actual game".
If you seriously don't like RPGs then please just play another genre instead of wanting the ruin of the genre.
[QUOTE=Metist;49360166]Are you seriously saying that dialog and stat management are in the way of "The actual game".
If you seriously don't like RPGs then please just play another genre instead of wanting the ruin of the genre.[/QUOTE]
The system was flawed, there's no sense of progression in each level you gain, because adding more points towards a skill wouldn't actually improve your character in any way until you reach a certain milestone, which might take 2 to 4 level ups depending on your intelligence,but that's only if you dunp all of your points into one skill,it would take even longer if you wanted to make yourself diverse
The system used in FO4 makes every level up satisfying, as I don't have to worry about that one damn point I'm missing from a skill reaching 95 and actually being useful
[QUOTE=CrossNgen;49360245]The system was flawed, there's no sense of progression in each level you gain, because adding more points towards a skill wouldn't actually improve your character in any way until you reach a certain milestone, which might take 2 to 4 level ups depending on your intelligence,but that's only if you dunp all of your points into one skill,it would take even longer if you wanted to make yourself diverse
The system used in FO4 makes every level up satisfying, as I don't have to worry about that one damn point I'm missing from a skill reaching 95 and actually being useful[/QUOTE]
Actually, points matter worse in FO4. For example, your strength stat even when low gives you more carrying ability than in the other fallout games meaning you see less of a difference. Something taking longer to get doesn't make it worse.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49359795]They are, by definition, LITERALLY, abortions by having removed ANY feature of RPG's previous.
[/QUOTE]
Can you not read? It's not that it's different. It's that they literally took things out.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49359795]See, the thing is, you're acting like your opinion is fact.
Can you actually show me how there's "Less quests"? The only element of that that I buy, is that there's a vastly inflated amount of repeatable quests...[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/CaoJIac.jpg[/IMG]
You can argue if its a better quest or not but New Vegas had more content then fallout 4 at launch.
Fallout 4 is pretty much 3 and NV with less content and dumbed down. I can't believe people think less content is somehow a good thing.
But I guess pesky RPG mechanics and quests get in the way of the game right?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49359651]Oh sorry it adds critical damage.
Skills were fucking stupid as they applied to weapons. Full out stupid.
[/QUOTE]
Now, this I don't understand. Skills that add accuracy and damage to weapons, flatly, are stupid. But somehow perks that add flatly to damage and critical damage, are fine. Because that's what Bobbleheads do, they add a perk that doesn't show up in the list.
How is this system any less stupid than what we had before, is beyond me. It's literally exactly the same shit. Perk ranks are +25 to skill plus an ability that has been applied by a specific perk before, you just take it automatically now (+20 chance to cripple, chance to knockback, chance to disarm, chance to stagger etc.)
Like, both sides of the argument seem strange to me. Some say it's a failure of RPG system, others say it's an improvement. Like, look at it. It's "Intense training" perk applied to skills instead of just SPECIAL.
I'm just defending fallout from being called an abortion. It's hardly that. Is it amazing? It has its moments for me but yes it shows a failure to meaningfully advance in every way. In my opinion i see a lot of value to many of the changes around the skills and levelling system as well as the environments are unanimously superior, while locations themselves occasionally needing much more work.
It's not an abortion of the genre is my argument. No one has managed to actually argue that it is very well.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49360432]It's not an abortion of the genre is my argument. No one has managed to actually argue that it is very well.[/QUOTE]
Look at the title. It says abortion of RPG mechanics. It does abort RPG mechanics.
No one has called the game itself an abortion, just that it does away with many mechanics from the previous games.
[QUOTE=Metist;49360440]Look at the title. It says abortion of RPG mechanics. It does abort RPG mechanics.
No one has called the game itself an abortion, just that it does away with many mechanics from the previous games.[/QUOTE]
As did games before that that you're lauding as being better games so your arbitrary standards aren't swaying me what so ever.
I admit it leaves out meaningful player choice through passive means, stealth, or any meaningful manner of persuasion. It's actual levelling mechanics, for me personally, abortion or not, even though I disagree, are improved. Dumbed down or whatever but the removal of skills was TO ME a good thing. Call me casual all you want but I played through F2 and I still prefer this manner of levelling in games today of this nature.
Yes many things can be improved but I disagree that it ventures so far away from what it means to be an RPG that you can say it's not an RPG. It's just not a very good RPG thanks mostly to what I said earlier.
The perks in Fallout 4 are pretty awful because a bunch of them are basically progression you would've got in the old skill system, but taking up your perk choices instead.
Like the crafting, persuasion, lockpicking and hacking, all stuff you would've gotten in addition to your perk choices, but in Fallout 4 you're having to pick those over other, more interesting perk choices and due to how the perk system is set up, each perk ends up taking one of the 70 slots, it's pretty shitty.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49360453]As did games before that that you're lauding as being better games so your arbitrary standards aren't swaying me what so ever.[/QUOTE]
You keep on putting words into my mouth. I never said the game wasn't an RPG. It is less of one however and it isn't arbitrary.
It LITERALLY aborted RPG mechanics.
As far as it being worse than the other games I think it's pretty easy to see why someone wouldn't like a game with less content as much as the previous games. The fallout series is about stat management and talking to people and always have been, by worsening these important aspects to the game they are worsening the game.
[QUOTE=alexisgondor;49360457]The perks in Fallout 4 are pretty awful because a bunch of them are basically progression you would've got in the old skill system, but taking up your perk choices instead.
Like the crafting, persuasion, lockpicking and hacking, all stuff you would've gotten in addition to your perk choices, but in Fallout 4 you're having to pick those over other, more interesting perk choices and due to how the perk system is set up, each perk ends up taking one of the 70 slots, it's pretty shitty.[/QUOTE]
This pretty much. There are 18 levels you need to dedicate towards crafting if you want to be able to make everything and then 6 for lockpicking/hacking. One of the damage trees is also mandatory and skills like lady killer no longer have unique dialogue which is disappointing. Most of the perks are pretty boring.
I enjoyed Fallout 4 but it leaves some disappointment for me.
[QUOTE=Metist;49360462]You keep on putting words into my mouth. I never said the game wasn't an RPG. It is less of one however and it isn't arbitrary.
It LITERALLY aborted RPG mechanics.
As far as it being worse than the other games I think it's pretty easy to see why someone wouldn't like a game with less content as much as the previous games. The fallout series is about stat management and talking to people and always have been, by worsening these important aspects to the game they are worsening the game.[/QUOTE]
FNV removed things that F2 and F1 had. True or false?
Is it by extension then, an abortion of traditions? Yes. Then I just want to ask, why is Fo4 the arbitrary cut off point for which the loss of RPG mechanics, many of which I have admitted the importance of, and their lack of presence in Fo4, which is just "too far"?
[QUOTE=alexisgondor;49360457]The perks in Fallout 4 are pretty awful because a bunch of them are basically progression you would've got in the old skill system, but taking up your perk choices instead.
Like the crafting, persuasion, lockpicking and hacking, all stuff you would've gotten in addition to your perk choices, but in Fallout 4 you're having to pick those over other, more interesting perk choices and due to how the perk system is set up, each perk ends up taking one of the 70 slots, it's pretty shitty.[/QUOTE]
While I do agree a really good improvement to the system would be simplifying crafting down from 15 perk points down to much less. Yes, I think that's a good idea. But overall, overall the removal of skills worked well and I can see ways that it could easily be improved and be an even better system.
I really, REALLY didn't like skills because of how it made me think, and how it made me play, and how it affected the gameplay, and gunplay. I always min/maxed to an extent that I didn't find enjoyable because I knew all the good perks and good skills, and good guns and what not were locked behind skill caps. That wasn't fun. That wasn't good design either.
I would rather they change things up than just do the same thing over and over again.
[editline]21st December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=ryfry99;49360487]This pretty much. There are 18 levels you need to dedicate towards crafting if you want to be able to make everything and then 6 for lockpicking/hacking. One of the damage trees is also mandatory and skills like lady killer no longer have unique dialogue which is disappointing. Most of the perks are pretty boring.[/QUOTE]
No, it's only 4 for lockpicking and 15 for crafting. What damage tree is mandatory? I ask this because I played the game through on legendary without any damage perks until after level 15 or so because I prioritized crafting to get the best armors and weapons early on.
To give a bit of feedback of your video in general:
First off, get a better microphone. Low-quality audio is worse than low-quality video. Always.
Secondly, you need to not read so directly off a script. It makes it monotone, bland and boring to listen to. Throw in some continuity in your dialogue.
That's the major things though. Work on those.
[QUOTE=ryfry99;49360487]
I enjoyed Fallout 4 but it leaves some disappointment for me.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I feel the same way overall. I just don't think it's nearly as bad as what some people are saying.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49360489]
No, it's only 4 for lockpicking and 15 for crafting. What damage tree is mandatory? I ask this because I played the game through on legendary without any damage perks until after level 15 or so because I prioritized crafting to get the best armors and weapons early on.[/QUOTE]
I meant 6 for lock-picking and hacking combined. The level 4 for each just makes hacking and picking easier so I didn't count them. For crafting I'm also counting 1 point for explosives and 2 points for settlement shops for crafting. You don't [I]need[/I] a damage tree but it makes things a lot easier on harder difficulties.
[QUOTE=Metist;49360166]Are you seriously saying that dialog and stat management are in the way of "The actual game".
If you seriously don't like RPGs then please just play another genre instead of wanting the ruin of the genre.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that working hard on speech skill only to find you're still 1 skill point off even though you really really want the good ending to this questline, is seriously fucking bullshit on Obsidian's part.
Same with any other skill checks, I would LOVE to not bother to gather 2000 caps to get into vegas, but that's alot of science grinding. I would LOVE to just get to New Vegas instantly, but that means going through either Deathclaw 15, or The valley of fuck bugs in order to avoid the literal learning curve that is the intro to New Vegas. Yes I've tried cutting corners, lead to companion death, and more deathclaws and super mutants.
I'm saying there is some bullshit in New Vegas and in some cases Fallout 3, that seriously I'm glad to see gone, because I'd rather a luck of the rng to settle a situation diplomatically, rather than always be 5 points off no matter what, with nothing else to do except cheat with the command console.
Because I care that much about getting the good endings to quests.
See, even Obsidian isn't as far from this kind of criticism, no one is, but I can at least admire Beth for giving a shit about making a great quality Fallout game, rather than someone else run it into the ground, or worse, seeing Fallout turn to dust from being forgotten about.
At least Beth can remember their old IPs and keep them alive, Elder Scrolls is from the very early 90s and we have Skyrim now! Fallout was made in the 90s and kept alive today and guess what? PEOPLE FUCKING LOVE THESE FRANCHISES for as old as they are, which is more than can be said for other forgotten ip's.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49360542]because I'd rather a luck of the rng to settle a situation diplomatically, rather than always be 5 points off no matter what, with nothing else to do except cheat with the command console.
[/QUOTE]
Because save-scumming is fun as fuck. Or turning slightly away from the dialogue, equipping all the +CHR stuff, and then continuing with the SPECIAL-check.
RNG should have been done away with. Either you have enough CHARISMA and pass, or you don't and say stupid garbage. Lacking one or two points (especially after drinking Whiskey and chewing on grape mentats) is infuriating, but luckily, Fo4's system is not point based (it kinda still is, but there're 10 points instead of 100). But nah. Beth insisted on their misguided vision.
Just imagine FoNV-esque failure variants ("Connect this electro-magnetic coil with this supercapacitor and start the reactor" for pass, "Ermm this thing goes there?" for not passing) given voice this time. That would've been the best shit ever. Instead, your character says the same exact thing, but the NPC for some unspecified reason finds it unconvincing.
The reason I find large components of Fo4 infuriating is not because they're outright worse than other Fallouts, or that they're necessarily all that horrible on their own, but rather because Bethesda's designers could capitalize on the previous experience, Obsidian's included. But no, they decided to reinvent the bicycle instead of improving and fixing all of the well-known shortcomings and failures of older installments.
If you ever find yourself 1 point off then it means you weren't really working hard on that skill. There's a difference between putting a few points into a skill every level and actually raising that skill significantly because it's important to your character. It makes sense for a character who is really dedicated to diplomacy to be able to complete more speech checks than a character who just takes a few points in Speech so they aren't completely awful at it. Assuming you start with 5 Intelligence, 5 Charisma and 5 Luck (a perfectly average character, though most people won't have such mediocre stats), and you tag speech, your Speech will start at 30, which means you can reach 100 Speech by level 7. Even if you only want to put half your points into Speech every level, you can reach 100 Speech by level 13. The way the game is set up, a character who is actually dedicated to raising a skill should be easily able to meet any requirements for that skill, while characters who are just raising a skill irregularly will be able to pass many- but not all- related skill checks. This is basically one of the most common design principles in RPGs - that your character can be good in some areas but they aren't perfect, so they have other areas which they aren't as good at. Also, this doesn't count the Educated perk, any Skill Books you might read, traits like Good Natured and Skilled, etc.
For a point of reference, you need 50 Speech for Speech-related checks around Novac, which an average character with no specific perks and Speech tagged can have by putting half their points into speech every level by level 5.
One other thing I wanted to mention is that the two-state way skills work in NV is consistent with the ways hacking and lockpicking skills in FO3/NV/4 work, too, which is a good thing because skills should behave consistently.
I'm just making a point same as Abyss, I know that when I finally get to play Fallout 4, I too am gonna see some things I probably won't like, not everything is 100% gonna be perfect.
But god damn the moment bethesda or Fallout 4 is mentioned everyone just rails onto all the bad stuff and the bad stuff only, like Todd Howard fucked your mother on a mountain or something.
A game can have flaws and still be a good enjoyable product to people. It's Bethesda, they're never 100% perfect, but they do try so god damn hard with every game they make, and by god I'll admire that till the rapture comes, because I'll take Todd Howard at E3 2015 showing how much he's into his own product, than Microsoft dragging some random sports star to get sales on sports game #2452, or Ubisoft squeezing Assassin's Creed dry.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49360633]
A game can have flaws and still be a good enjoyable product to people. It's Bethesda, they're never 100% perfect, but they do try so god damn hard with every game they make, and by god I'll admire that till the rapture comes[/QUOTE]
That's the exact reason I fucking rip into Fo4 every time it's brought up. Because if it was a shit game I'd just abandon and forget it. The game sucks, fuck that game, I wasted some money, oh well, I'll just find something else and know better next time. But I actually find it super enjoyable, just like Skyrim and Fo3. The more I like it, the more glaring become its issues, shortcomings, wasted opportunities (especially, especially the ones that can't be fixed with mods). Especially if those issues appear to be in the game because someone didn't think hard enough or decided to slap something promising with no thought whatsoever to make it fit. It may not actually be that way, but sure looks like it.
[QUOTE=gudman;49360682]That's the exact reason I fucking rip into Fo4 every time it's brought up. Because if it was a shit game I'd just abandon and forget it. The game sucks, fuck that game, I wasted some money, oh well, I'll just find something else and know better next time. But I actually find it super enjoyable, just like Skyrim and Fo3. The more I like it, the more glaring become its issues, shortcomings, wasted opportunities (especially, especially the ones that can't be fixed with mods). Especially if those issues appear to be in the game because someone didn't think hard enough or decided to slap something promising with no thought whatsoever to make it fit. It may not actually be that way, but sure looks like it.[/QUOTE]
Exactly! I get it, some of the criticisms are getting boring and stale. I understand you don't want to read the same complaints over and over and over again in every thread about FO4 and sometimes those criticisms start to seem baseless or simply directed at Bethesda.
But for many people like myself, the game is criticised to hell and back because we had huge hopes for it and it delivered on many fronts. A crap game does not warrant this much scrutiny and if it was an unbelievably great it wouldn't attract so much. It just feels like it had everything to be amazing and something held it back. Whether it is "aborting" RPG mechanics (I seriously dislike using abortion when describing something about a game but whatever), removing fun dialogue options, dumbing down many of the systems, it is Fallout but it is a far cry from the game it could have been or it should have been.
Also I seriously don't understand the long winded and heated comments against the criticisms people make. They might be based on solid facts, gut feeling or completely baseless but what the fuck are you thinking you are going to achieve by arguing against someone who felt let down by certain mechanics? We get it, you liked it. Great. Honestly I am happy someone enjoyed and keeps enjoying the game more than I do, but are you really going to convince someone who didn't like certain aspects of the game?
"Oh yes, I liked having to pick skills and perks and I feel let down now that I have less to do when I level up but thanks to your extended analysis of how the skill system did not make sense in the previous games I changed my mind. I love picking only one perk after levelling and that perk not being important at all now" or is it just a way to shit on people who care enough about the game to want it to be better?
RPG mechanics are still there just in a much more simplified and streamlined way.
It's not the system, it's the execution. I'm glad that being smart doesn't make me magically shoot energy weapons better. I'm glad that my skills and perks are more fluid to the gameplay and not some 57/60 number checks.
Sure it could have been executed better, but shit's still fun yo. My character is still unique to how I play.
[QUOTE=General J;49361513]I'm glad that being smart doesn't make me magically shoot energy weapons better.[/QUOTE]
Well, actually, energy weapons' related SPECIAL was perception, not intelligence.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;49361668]Well, actually, energy weapons' related SPECIAL was perception, not intelligence.[/QUOTE]
Was it? Ballistics were dependent on perception, I'm not entirely sure if all ranged weapons were.
[editline]21st December 2015[/editline]
Yeah, all ranged weapons were related to Perception, I checked.
[QUOTE=gudman;49361968]Was it? Ballistics were dependent on perception, I'm not entirely sure if all ranged weapons were.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Energy Weapons was governed by perception too, I think the confusion is caused that if you chose energy weapons chances are you were probably going for a science type character that had Intelligence as your main SPECIAL stat.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49360542]I'm saying that working hard on speech skill only to find you're still 1 skill point off even though you really really want the good ending to this questline, is seriously fucking bullshit on Obsidian's part.[/QUOTE]
Have you seriously never played an RPG before? You are complaining that you don't have high enough skill to do something and you would rather the game determine it by CHANCE? Are you serious?
RPGs aren't for you. In fallout if you can't do something by a speech check then you can do it other ways like through combat or by sneaking. The fact that you are mad that you actually can't be amazing at everything from the start is frankly stupid and I am amazed how pathetically casual you are.
Everything that you say is "bullshit" really means "I am too casual and too stupid to find another way around and want to win at everything instantly without having to actually work for it"
[QUOTE]Because I care that much about getting the good ending[/QUOTE]
Then next time actually play the game right and put stats in where they need to be. Maybe next time don't put everything into guns like an idiot. Any decent RPG is going to have consequences based on the choices you make. You are seriously mad that you can't have everything instantly without any work or having to use your brain. Again, instead of runing the RPG genre for everyone else, why don't you just stop playing a genre you obviously don't like?
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