• Fallout 4 critique: The abortion of RPG mechanics (Self posted, looking for suggestions)
    313 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49364396]I have. It's just an arbitrary, and full out stupid metric to take. Yes, it "Aborts" features. AGAIN, so did FNV and Fo3, games you enjoy, so apparently, you too, also enjoy games that are dumbing themselves down to an arbitrary level.[/QUOTE] Can you name what RPG mechanics NV aborted? I am sure there are some but it's not as obvious. Besides, again, the reason why people are criticizing 4 and not NV is because 4 is the new one. How are you surprised by this?
[QUOTE=Metist;49364407]Can you name what RPG mechanics NV aborted? I am sure there are some but it's not as obvious. Besides, again, the reason why people are criticizing 4 and not NV is because 4 is the new one. How are you surprised by this?[/QUOTE] Sure Karma was essentially a broken system compared to any earlier game. the depth of combat/persuasion was reduced from F2(You know, you're main complaint of F4) Elements of the RPG nature of the game around equipment choices were comparatively limited I'm not surprised by it. I'm saying you are being arbitrary and acting like you're somehow right based on that entirely arbitrary decision and that that is wrong because of it's arbitrary nature. I'm just saying you are drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and saying "I like the better games" without that actually fucking meaning anything. ARguing about losing RPG mechanics is silly because games have been losing them for 20 years and still maintaining what makes them functionally RPG's. Distancing oneself from older methods of "RPG" mechanics DOESN'T make a game less of an RPG. Fallout 4, with certain tweaks, would be an overall massive improvement on F3/NV if it kept the speech/diplomacy based mechanics that got removed.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49364449]Sure Karma was essentially a broken system compared to any earlier game. the depth of combat/persuasion was reduced from F2(You know, you're main complaint of F4) Elements of the RPG nature of the game around equipment choices were comparatively limited I'm not surprised by it. I'm saying you are being arbitrary and acting like you're somehow right based on that entirely arbitrary decision and that that is wrong because of it's arbitrary nature. I'm just saying you are drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and saying "I like the better games" without that actually fucking meaning anything. ARguing about losing RPG mechanics is silly because games have been losing them for 20 years and still maintaining what makes them functionally RPG's. Distancing oneself from older methods of "RPG" mechanics DOESN'T make a game less of an RPG. Fallout 4, with certain tweaks, would be an overall massive improvement on F3/NV if it kept the speech/diplomacy based mechanics that got removed.[/QUOTE] It seems like you are mad that people are calling out the fact that it has less options and using the fact that other games did it too as a defense. If you want to complain about the things you listed then go ahead. I ain't going to get mad at you for not being ok with less content.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364523]It seems like you are mad that people are calling out the fact that it has less options and using the fact that other games did it too as a defense. If you want to complain about the things you listed then go ahead. I ain't going to get mad at you for not being ok with less content.[/QUOTE] Somehow a game with less content than Fo3 and FNV managed to be a more enjoyable game for me. So fucking what I don't need validation to have enjoyed it. I'm trying to explain why you're arbitrary reasons are just that. Arbitrary as fuck.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364523]It seems like you are mad that people are calling out the fact that it has less options and using the fact that other games did it too as a defense. If you want to complain about the things you listed then go ahead. I ain't going to get mad at you for not being ok with less content.[/QUOTE] I haven't played the entirety of Fallout 4 so I'm not exactly in the know, but where are you pulling this 'less content' thing from? The shortcomings of Fallout 4 are completely different from Battlefront, Siege, (some parallels with BF i suppose) or the Sims 4.
my point in bringing up the degraded state of FNV compared to F2 is that you're still acting like FNV isn't an abortion when by your own definition, you enjoy so called "abortions" too.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49364550]Somehow a game with less content than Fo3 and FNV managed to be a more enjoyable game for me. So fucking what I don't need validation to have enjoyed it. I'm trying to explain why you're arbitrary reasons are just that. Arbitrary as fuck.[/QUOTE] How the hell is not liking less content Arbitrary? It's already been shown to have less quests, dialog, ect. I'm sorry me and other people actually might have a problem with less content and want to criticisize that fact.
it's less of an abortion and more of a poor reintrepretation/adaptation of mechanics imo
Comparing modern 3D games to old turn based games is futile because a lot of the "RPG mechanics" that were lost are not necessary in modern RPGs. Most RPG elements are a form of mechanical abstraction of things that could not be properly represented in old games. Having hacking or lockpicking no longer be random chance isn't a problem because those can be represented mechanically now. The problem is when mechanics are removed and no new systems take their place. In Fallout 1 and 2 lockpicking was a chance the character had at picking a lock, this is a worthless skill in a game where the player takes the roll of lock picker, acting solely as a gate to what the player can access. Instead a different skill should be implemented to expand on the features of the game, allowing for more player interaction where there was none before and adding mechanical abstraction to systems we can not represent properly in modern games. Rather than having a lockpick skill or a hacking skill there should be a number of perks which make those tasks easier for the player, and other systems should be expanded. For example having medicine be an actual skill which lets the player and character provide medical assistance rather than making stimpacks heal more. Or make hunting into an actual skill (or expand it into survival) that allows you to hunt animals and salvage more materials the higher your skill gets. Removing unnecessary complexity is not 'dumbing down' as complexity does not make something smart. Levelling in Fallout 1 and 2 was a significant point of progression, the character became significantly more powerful and perks would give powerful changes to how you play the game. In the newer games each level is worth significantly less and perks are far less effectual in gameplay. Being level 20 in Fallout makes you a juggernaut who slays deathclaws and supermtants with ease, being level 20 in Fallout 4 means you're moderately powerful who can take out supermutants with careful play. A skill based system is not inherently better than a perk based system, nor is the opposite true. The most important aspect is execution, which I think all the 3D Fallout games have struggled with greatly. Fallout 3 used the skill system in the most basic way possible, relying on damage scaling and RNG to give 'depth' to the systems they tried to adapt for a new gameplay style. New Vegas did a better job by giving set skill checks and making skills do more than scale damage and accuracy, but it relied very heavily on perks to differentiate character builds. Fallout 4 tried to find an alternate system but just as in 3 they made skills primarily scale damage and alter RNG chances. Many people think Fallout 3 is more complex than Fallout 4 because it has the skill system, but Fallout 3 didn't do anything with the skill system and only scaled damage. Comparatively Fallout 4, which also just scales damage, has more mechanical complexity in the actual calculations of it. Damage resistance in Fallout 3 was just an obfuscated percentage which capped at 85%, damage resistance in Fallout 4 is much more similar to the damage threshold system of New Vegas. I'm not saying Fallout 4 is some amazingly deep RPG with intricate systems, but it also isn't an abortion of RPG mechanics. It's probably the most mechanically complex game they have released since Oblivion, they just give the player very boring choices in those mechanics.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364626]How the hell is not liking less content Arbitrary? It's already been shown to have less quests, dialog, ect. I'm sorry me and other people actually might have a problem with less content and want to criticisize that fact.[/QUOTE] I think there's been a misunderstanding. HumanAbyss thinks you're directly telling him that he should not like the game based on the fact that it has less content (ie. the "arbitrary reason" he's talking about). He's basically saying that yes, the game has less content, but he still found it to be an enjoyable experience. in the end: you guys just have different opinions on what makes a game 'good'
[QUOTE=Metist;49364626]How the hell is not liking less content Arbitrary? It's already been shown to have less quests, dialog, ect. I'm sorry me and other people actually might have a problem with less content and want to criticisize that fact.[/QUOTE] because you're drawing a line and saying "This is less in everyway". No. It's only less in some ways, and even then it's debatable how much those things matter to different people. The problem with every fucking thing you say is you're acting like video game taste is "YOUR" taste, or else someone is an unwashed pleb. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=cdr248;49364661]I think there's been a misunderstanding. HumanAbyss thinks you're directly telling him that he should not like the game based on the fact that it has less content (ie. the "arbitrary reason" he's talking about). He's basically saying that yes, the game has less content, but he still found it to be an enjoyable experience. in the end: you guys just have different opinions on what makes a game 'good'[/QUOTE] yeup and i'm happy to let other people have their feelings about it, i even engage with the discussion about the game being lacking I'm just not going to let it be smeared with shit it doesn't deserve in my opinion.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364287]It's pretty much no worse than the facepunch vote system really. Dumb means "disagree" for example. Only on facepunch will you see people actively defending less content as a plus so I can see why everyone else is mad.[/QUOTE] And you seriously thought taking those posts, most of them being mine, and pasting them so you can have /V/ line them up for a firing squad is gonna show me what for?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49364663]because you're drawing a line and saying "This is less in everyway".[/QUOTE] In RPG mechanics it is definitely 100%. A sequel should have MORE content than the last games. Not more. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49364712]And you seriously thought taking those posts, most of them being mine, and pasting them so you can have /V/ line them up for a firing squad is gonna show me what for?[/QUOTE] It's not my fault other people think you are stupid. Half of the users here go to some chan. Like I said, I don't even go to 4chan. I go to Redchan.it and 420 chan.
In comparing Fallout 4 to something like The Witcher 3 (which gets universal praise across the board) I fail to see how Fallout 4 is a abortion of rpg mechanics, it has all the same systems every other mainstream RPG does these days. The game mechanics and rpg mechanics actually function quite well by the standards of the modern rpg, but they lack depth in terms of usefulness in dialogue and quest choices, which is a feature endemic to Black Isle/Obsidian Fallout titles. The primary issue with F4 as I see it, is big contrivances in the game setting and locations, and weak main story writing. Fallout 4 is substantially better than Fallout 3, it's just that almost everybody has nostalgia googles for Fallout 3 and don't realize that it's just an "Good/OK" game and a pretty bad fallout successor to boot. As a [I]game[/I] I think Fallout 4 is actually one of the best Bethesda has done in years, head and shoulders above Fallout 3, but it still suffers all of the contrivance and weak writing that seems to plague Bethesda's titles in the last decade. Basically new vegas stands among one of the best RPGs made in recent memory, and bethesda basically went "fuck that" and just made a very good fallout sandbox rpg. We just need another J.E. Sawyer-directed game where they flesh out and expand upon the RPG mechanics and core combat mechanics, and make a more socially complex world that isn't dominated by raiders and super mutants, and then all will be well in the Fallout world. With that said I was pleasantly surprised by Fallout 4 and it was much better than I was expecting, just didn't hit the mark of "my perfect fallout game." Bethesda made some good gameplay innovations, but as far as story and RPG mechanics go they'll just never be the ideal developer for the Fallout franchise.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;49364750] it's just that almost everybody has nostalgia googles for Fallout 3 [/QUOTE] I didn't realize liking more dialog options was a case of wearing "Nostalgia goggles". Silly me, I guess missing battlefront 2's more than 4 maps also means I have the goggles on too tight.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364722]In RPG mechanics it is definitely 100%. A sequel should have MORE content than the last games. Not more. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] It's not my fault other people think you are stupid. Half of the users here go to some chan. Like I said, I don't even go to 4chan. I go to Redchan.it and 420 chan.[/QUOTE] Oh okay, so you're again, saying you're fine with it EXCEPT this game is too far? Fo2 ditched things that previous RPG's thought were good ideas. You literally abhor change to the extreme. Stagnant and static industry and games is all you want. I get it now. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Metist;49364758]I didn't realize liking more dialog options was a case of wearing "Nostalgia goggles". Silly me, I guess missing battlefront 2's more than 4 maps also means I have the goggles on too tight.[/QUOTE] Hah, yes, because Fallout 4 = Battlefront, a game I thoroughly believe is shit. You are a master of making arguments of pure fucking nonsense.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364722] It's not my fault other people think you are stupid. [/QUOTE] Well that's some nice compensation from you. I'm with Abyss, I don't MIND being told Fallout 4 has flaws, I certainly don't MIND debating over them like the civilized human beings we are. I DO mind people mindlessly calling it super terrible game, and calling Bethesda a super terrible company/dev, when they both really don't deserve that much hate and ire.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49364761]Hah, yes, because Fallout 4 = Battlefront, a game I thoroughly believe is shit. You are a master of making arguments of pure fucking nonsense.[/QUOTE] Just because you can't understand a basic analogy doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. They are both cases where games are heavily criticized for having far less content and yet for some reason criticizing FO4 horrible dialog system means I have Nostalgia goggles on. It is no different than Battlefront having a 4th as many maps as the other games. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49364772]I DO mind people mindlessly calling it super terrible game, and calling Bethesda a super terrible company/dev, when they both really don't deserve that much hate and ire.[/QUOTE] Because you don't agree it's mindless now? This is coming from someone who doesn't have the mental capacity to be able to solve a simple NV mission without resorting to cheating. But no, it's everyone else who is mindless.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364779]Just because you can't understand a basic analogy doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. They are both cases where games are heavily criticized for having far less content and yet for some reason criticizing FO4 horrible dialog system means I have Nostalgia goggles on. It is no different than Battlefront having a 4th as many maps as the other games. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] Because you don't agree it's mindless now? This is coming from someone who doesn't have the mental capacity to be able to solve a simple NV mission without resorting to cheating. But no, it's everyone else who is mindless.[/QUOTE] Look, your analogy failed. Be mad about that at me if you want, but you made a fucking terrible analogy. You've done nothing but act as if the game is a real true degradation of the mechanics of RPG's which have been declining in history over the last few years so please, explain how this is the RPG that's too far. It's not mindless and insulting someone else over something they did in a game because they didn't understand a quest is just making you more and more laughable.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49364761]Oh okay, so you're again, saying you're fine with it EXCEPT this game is too far? Fo2 ditched things that previous RPG's thought were good ideas. You literally abhor change to the extreme. Stagnant and static industry and games is all you want. I get it now. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] Hah, yes, because Fallout 4 = Battlefront, a game I thoroughly believe is shit. You are a master of making arguments of pure fucking nonsense.[/QUOTE] You spent 3 pages defending a game which we will remember in the future and laugh with it's lacking and horrible dialogue system? The lack of good quests and the big amount of repeatable quests? A game where once you hit 30 lvl in like 2 35 hours you are invisible and you don't know where to spend the well earned caps? The piece of shit main quest story? Not a good RPG mate , I wouldn't call it an abortion though. If you love sandbox shooters so much go make a thread about em and defend em there with fallout 4 in the bunch. The developers are a bunch of lazy cunts who used animations (horrible again) from skyrim (the npcs and such) , prefered the radiant quests to dominate or CLEAR OUT THIS AREA storylines. Sorry mate but when it comes to RPGs your beloved game is a piece of shit. it's so bad and such a dissapointment when you hit 40 hours in the game and you don't feel the satisfaction that you get from other games like Witcher 3. An abortion no. Opinions are opinions and you know everyone has their tastes but for people who are looking for a good RPG experience this game is bad.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49364837]Look, your analogy failed. Be mad about that at me if you want, but you made a fucking terrible analogy. [/QUOTE] It failed only because you don't agree with it. I get it. You guys don't like RPGs or at least RPG mechanics. While an RPG fan likes leveling, choices, skills checks, ect you simply see it as an issue. An RPG fan who didn't have enough stats to convince someone in a conversation would either go "Darn, I didn't level my character properly" and then try to fix that with stat management or go "hmm, well I will just have to accomplish the quest another way". Instead you guys go "I can't instantly win this conversation despite not putting enough points into charisma? Time to cheat!". So maybe you should just stop playing a genre that is obviously not for you instead of trying to ruin it for fans of the genre.
[QUOTE=Sub-Zero;49364843]You spent 3 pages defending a game which we will remember in the future and laugh with it's lacking and horrible dialogue system? The lack of good quests and the big amount of repeatable quests? A game where once you hit 30 lvl in like 2 35 hours you are invisible and you don't know where to spend the well earned caps? The piece of shit main quest story? Not a good RPG mate , I wouldn't call it an abortion though. If you love sandbox shooters so much go make a thread about em and defend em there with fallout 4 in the bunch. The developers are a bunch of lazy cunts who used animations (horrible again) from skyrim (the npcs and such) , prefered the radiant quests to dominate or CLEAR OUT THIS AREA storylines. Sorry mate but when it comes to RPGs your beloved game is a piece of shit. it's so bad and such a dissapointment when you hit 40 hours in the game and you don't feel the satisfaction that you get from other games like Witcher 3. An abortion no. Opinions are opinions and you know everyone has their tastes but for people who are looking for a good RPG experience this game is bad.[/QUOTE] I FUCKING LOVE IT when you speak for me, when you tell me how I should, can and will feel. When you define what I like, what I should do, what I should say OH wait sorry I mean, I fucking hate it because all it shows is you can't ever see past your own perspective. Have fun with that.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364867]It failed only because you don't agree with it. I get it. You guys don't like RPGs or at least RPG mechanics. While an RPG fan likes leveling, choices, skills checks, ect you simply see it as an issue. An RPG fan who didn't have enough stats to convince someone in a conversation would either go "Darn, I didn't level my character properly" and then try to fix that with stat management or go "hmm, well I will just have to accomplish the quest another way". Instead you guys go "I can't instantly win this conversation despite not putting enough points into charisma? Time to cheat!". So maybe you should just stop playing a genre that is obviously not for you instead of trying to ruin it for fans of the genre.[/QUOTE] Stupid how in fallout I was always the good guy no matter what and all the shit I would say would lead to the NPC just ignoring it. FUcking RPG guys .
[QUOTE=Metist;49364867]It failed only because you don't agree with it. I get it. You guys don't like RPGs or at least RPG mechanics. While an RPG fan likes leveling, choices, skills checks, ect you simply see it as an issue. An RPG fan who didn't have enough stats to convince someone in a conversation would either go "Darn, I didn't level my character properly" and then try to fix that with stat management or go "hmm, well I will just have to accomplish the quest another way". Instead you guys go "I can't instantly win this conversation despite not putting enough points into charisma? Time to cheat!". So maybe you should just stop playing a genre that is obviously not for you instead of trying to ruin it for fans of the genre.[/QUOTE] RPG's are my favourite games. You really don't get to tell me anything you're trying to tell me here. I haven't cheated and haven't bothered with it, are you just going to make this personal and some kind of baby bitch fest because you're doing in the right fucking way
See that's what I'm talking about, it's like Fallout 4 NEEDS to be the worst game ever, it can't just be a good game with flaws, or just a good game with flaws you can ignore and just enjoy and have fun like video games are meant to be, they have to be 100% perfect titles, even the tinest nit-pick will make it a ruined titled and not worthy of any mention what so ever. So in other words /v/.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49364871]I fucking hate it because all it shows is you can't ever see past your own perspective. Have fun with that.[/QUOTE] This is ironic. It is you who can't understand why people would for some reason not enjoy less content, worse writing and dumbed down gameplay. I also love how Pvt. Martin has to rate everyone who proves him wrong as stupid. Which is funny since he is too stupid for RPGs and blames everyone else for it.
[QUOTE=Sub-Zero;49364878]Stupid how in fallout I was always the good guy no matter what and all the shit I would say would lead to the NPC just ignoring it. FUcking RPG guys .[/QUOTE] Holy hell. I specifically said I don't like that element of the game but no, you're going to be a child and take words out of context aren't you? "HOW DARE ANYONE SAY ANYTHING I DON'T FULLY FUCKING AGREE WITH GAWD WHAT ABUNCH OF BABIES". That's you, and metist. Good job, you guys are the pinnacle of short sighted, self centered gamers.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49364884]See that's what I'm talking about, it's like Fallout 4 NEEDS to be the worst game ever, it can't just be a good game with flaws, or just a good game with flaws you can ignore and just enjoy and have fun like video games are meant to be, they have to be 100% perfect titles, even the tinest nit-pick will make it a ruined titled and not worthy of any mention what so ever. So in other words /v/.[/QUOTE] Nice buzzwords and strawman. Everytime someone posts flaws you get angry. Sorry people are criticizing a game getting worse and having less content.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364885]This is ironic. It is you who can't understand why people would for some reason not enjoy less content, worse writing and dumbed down gameplay. I also love how Pvt. Martin has to rate everyone who proves him wrong as stupid. Which is funny since he is too stupid for RPGs and blames everyone else for it.[/QUOTE] It's because all you're doing is making fun of me and calling me stupid when me and Abyss are trying to debate the matter. Also be mindful how you type "Martin is stupid" because it makes you open for flaming.
[QUOTE=Metist;49364885]This is ironic. It is you who can't understand why people would for some reason not enjoy less content, worse writing and dumbed down gameplay. I also love how Pvt. Martin has to rate everyone who proves him wrong as stupid. Which is funny since he is too stupid for RPGs and blames everyone else for it.[/QUOTE] Are you seriously just going to make this a personal insult fest? I understand why you don't like it. You don't understand why I like it. You don't want me to be able to like it. I understand why it needs to be better. I've gone to great lengths in this discussion with you to say "HEY THESE THINGS NEED FUCKING WORK" but apparently, saying ANYTHING even remotely positive about a game you hate means I'm someone YOU get to define. Do you have any concept of how discussions work or do you always just insist the other person isn't good enough to have their own opinions?
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