• Fallout 4 critique: The abortion of RPG mechanics (Self posted, looking for suggestions)
    313 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sub-Zero;49365034]You see that we don't like games with no depth and lazy development. A game where I can't change anything in the world , that has only 2-3 good side quests and the rest is just mindless shooting with no purpose other than clear out that area is not a RPG for me . Do you accept that ? People didn't accept your opinion because you kept defending it for pages and pages and countering what they said. You seem to like simple games and also simple things in life . You just want people to say " I like this" or " I don't like this" without arguing . Thats the joy of being with people and talking. We actually explained why its not a good RPG and all you could simply do in page 1 was type : Hey I actually enjoy the game guys.[/QUOTE] So you saying "you like casual baby like games" isn't condescending or intentionally insulting? Again what's a GOOD RPG to you supposed arbiters of quality? How is fucking Path of eternity casual? Fuck sakes kids.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49365071]Only mechanics I can think of that it straight up threw out were stuff like repairing. This isn't like Bioshock where it actually did completely omit a large amount of things from the predecessor, Fallout 4 still does a lot to keep many of the features intact. Sure the dialogue choices are lesser in both number and purpose (skill checks and such), but it's not like it threw dialogue and speech checks out the window. It's a lesser RPG that NV, but it's not an [I]abortion[/I].[/QUOTE] Skill system Survival mode Dialog options from 12 to about 4 (like the video showed).
[QUOTE=Metist;49365045]Again, it LITERALLY aborted some mechanics. LITERALLY. That is what the thread title means. If you still like it go ahead. Why is everyone getting mad that people are explaining how this hurts the RPG part of the game though.[/QUOTE] I don't even really like Fallout 4 that much, I just don't think it's an abortion. In fact I got dumbed out of the Fallout thread (before release mind you) because I was highly skeptical of it (and a little irrational in my criticisms).
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49365075]Fuck sakes kids.[/QUOTE] Yeah, we are all children for liking RPG mechanics. Nice argument skills there.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49365075]So you saying "you like casual baby like games" isn't condescending or intentionally insulting? Again what's a GOOD RPG to you supposed arbiters of quality? How is fucking Path of eternity casual? Fuck sakes kids.[/QUOTE] You will never learn....
[QUOTE=cdr248;49365092]II just don't think it's an abortion.[/QUOTE] How do neither you or humanabyss not understand the title? No one is saying the game is an abortion. Just that mechanics were aborted.
[QUOTE=Sub-Zero;49365097]You will never learn....[/QUOTE] You're a fucking horrible teacher what can you expect
[QUOTE=Metist;49365083]Skill system Survival mode Dialog options from 12 to about 4 (like the video showed).[/QUOTE] The skills system was replaced with the new perk chart system. The survival mode isn't really a staple of Fallout, nor is it a staple of RPGs (and really isn't like a huge loss imo). And yes dialogue options are less but my point is that they're still there and still try to keep the basic concept of an rpg intact. And abortion would suggest a complete disregard for the original's mechanics like Syndicate. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Metist;49365102]How do neither you or humanabyss not understand the title? No one is saying the game is an abortion. Just that mechanics were aborted.[/QUOTE] I just typed it like that for the sake of saving a little time and for style purposes so let me rephrase: an abortion (of mechanics). I'm not even really sure how a game can be an abortion anyway [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Metist;49365095]Yeah, we are all children for liking RPG mechanics. Nice argument skills there.[/QUOTE] He's not judging your like for RPG mechanics though, he's calling you children because he thinks your judgments of him and his taste are immature. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] christ man this feels like less of a debate on the game and more of a debate on semantics
[QUOTE=cdr248;49365116]The skills system was replaced with the new perk chart system. The survival mode isn't really a staple of Fallout, nor is it a staple of RPGs (and really isn't like a huge loss imo). And yes dialogue options are less but my point is that they're still there.[/QUOTE] The perk system is pretty much a dumbed down stat system. They aborted the old stat system. They aborted most of the dialog options They aborted you being able to talk like a retard when you don't have enough INT They aborted you being able to see what your character is going to say They aborted level caps which mean you don't have to stat manage nearly as much And survival mode being in only one game doesn't mean it wasn't aborted out.
Me, Abyss and others in this thread are being smart and critical about Fallout 4. Metist and Sub-Zero are just insulting us and calling us "casuals" like we're on /v/ or something.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49365185]Me, Abyss and others in this thread are being smart and critical about Fallout 4. Metist and Sub-Zero are just insulting us and calling us "casuals" like we're on /v/ or something.[/QUOTE] Smart and critical. That is what I call rating everyone who disagrees as dumb and using ad hominen arguments by calling us /v/ criticizing a game you like.
Also let's not forget that someone in this thread took some of our posts to /v/ for the exact purpose of agreeing that we're the idiots for not agreeing with them that ALL of Fallout 4 is bad, as opposed to only some of it not being good.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49365197]Also let's not forget that someone in this thread took some of our posts to /v/ for the exact purpose of agreeing that we're the idiots for not agreeing with them that ALL of Fallout 4 is bad, as opposed to only some of it not being good.[/QUOTE] You say this and yet you are getting so defensive when people criticize the game. Seriously, have I once called the game total trash? So far you are getting mad that RPG fans are disappointed with fallout 4's RPG mechanics.
Sorry if i triggered you in some way! Next time someone says something with no arguements I will make sure to agree with him!!
[QUOTE=Metist;49365174]The perk system is pretty much a dumbed down stat system. They aborted the old stat system. They aborted most of the dialog options They aborted you being able to talk like a retard when you don't have enough INT They aborted you being able to see what your character is going to say They aborted level caps which mean you don't have to stat manage nearly as much And survival mode being in only one game doesn't mean it wasn't aborted out.[/QUOTE] aborted is usually meant to be used in a stronger sense that isn't just 'removed' large tangible things are aborted, not specific features. Low INT speech something that's removed, RPG mechanics [I]on a whole[/I] are aborted. Now to address some things: 1. Yes it's dumbed down, but it's not a complete abortion of stats and character building. 2. See above. I consider the limited dialogue options to be a stupid decision, but I don't think it fits with the implication of the word 'abortion'. 3. Again, see above. Another unfortunate feature to not make it in but not a complete abortion of mechanics. 4. Not an 'abortion' of mechanics, it's just another case of consolization and dumbing down. 5. A design choice that I personally don't agree with, but still not an abortion. Fallout 4 is a RPG with a lack of depth, but it's still an RPG whether you like it or not.
[QUOTE=Metist;49365174]The perk system is pretty much a dumbed down stat system. They aborted the old stat system. They aborted most of the dialog options They aborted you being able to talk like a retard when you don't have enough INT They aborted you being able to see what your character is going to say They aborted level caps which mean you don't have to stat manage nearly as much[/QUOTE] Your use of the term abort is both inaccurate and hyperbolic to the point of ludicrousness. They didn't abort anything, they changed things. The perk system is not a dumbed down stat system, it is an alternate system. They didn't "abort" dialogue options, for one thing that doesn't make any sense, for another to say "There's only 4 options" is to misrepresent that the entire structure of conversations has changed. I don't think they implemented the new conversation flow well but it is absolutely not the same as the old games. Talking like a retard was only in the first two games, expecting it to be in now and bitching that it isn't is retarded when it hasn't been a feature in any game since Tactics. Making dialogue options short one or two word summaries is terrible, but they didn't "abort" anything, they changed it. And finally they didn't "abort" level caps, they removed the cap because you become a stupid overpowered Mary Sue in all open world games these days and having a level cap wouldn't change that in any way. It is unfeasable to reach a point where you acquire all the perks in the game, or even more than half of them with a single character. Your insistence on using the word aborted just makes you look like an idiot to be honest. It is an inaccurate term just used to be inflammatory because, as you have displayed in your posts in this thread, you like to talk down to people you disagree with.
[QUOTE=Metist;49365188]Smart and critical. That is what I call rating everyone who disagrees as dumb and using ad hominen arguments by calling us /v/ criticizing a game you like.[/QUOTE] Well you did called Abyss a casual :v: [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49365185]Me, Abyss and others in this thread are being smart and critical about Fallout 4. Metist and Sub-Zero are just insulting us and calling us "casuals" like we're on /v/ or something.[/QUOTE] I think you're taking this /v/ thing a little personally. It was a p weak-ass thing to do but it's irrelevant now.
This went from people being stupid to people making long drawn out posts about how all modern RPGs have to follow rank and file and that complexity is bad whilst others are screaming insults line this bus 4chan. And now its on a chan. 10 outta 10.
:snip:
Also fuck smartphone screens.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49365185]Me, Abyss and others in this thread are being smart and critical about Fallout 4. Metist and Sub-Zero are just insulting us and calling us "casuals" like we're on /v/ or something.[/QUOTE] This whole thread is an embarrassing shit fest and you can't argue whether fallout 4 is a good or bad game without having played it.
also Metist/Sub-Zero, what would you guys consider good RPGs if Project Eternity and DA: O (<- not a fan of this one imo) aren't to your standards? just to get a sense of your taste [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;49365306]This went from people being stupid to people making long drawn out posts about how all modern RPGs have to follow rank and file and that complexity is bad whilst others are screaming insults line this bus 4chan. And now its on a chan. 10 outta 10.[/QUOTE] I haven't followed this thread until the last couple of pages but I don't think anyone said complexity is bad, it's just that not having complexity doesn't mean it's an abortion of mechanics. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] fuck this really is just an argument about semantics because the only thing I'm disagreeing with is Metist's use of the word 'abortion' it's like if we're discussing whether one game is better than another by using the term 'rape' where one person uses it loosely and the other specifically even if they both agree that said game was 'raped' (significantly worse in quality) by the other
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49365225]Your use of the term abort[/QUOTE] Except it isn't inaccurate. The greatest example would be energy weapons skill. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=cdr248;49365364]also Metist/Sub-Zero, what would you guys consider good RPGs'[/QUOTE] It's not about the game being good or not. A casual game can still be a good game. But in FO4 case it has hurt the game and is an example of a game being dumbed down.
[QUOTE=Metist;49365387]Except it isn't inaccurate. The greatest example would be energy weapons skill. [/QUOTE] The energy weapons skill was removed, not aborted. That's not what the word abort means. To abort something is to stop its development before it is finished, the things you're complaining about were not aborted, they were removed or changed.
[QUOTE=Metist;49365387]Except it isn't inaccurate. The greatest example would be energy weapons skill.[/QUOTE] 'abort' has never been used in this context before but it's pretty safe to assume that an abortion of mechanics is more than just removals or changes, it's carries much more symbolic meaning. The removal of the energy weapon skill isn't an abortion of mechanics. [I]The complete removal of all rpg systems other than shit like equipment/crafting would be an abortion of mechanics[/I] [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Metist;49365387]Except it isn't inaccurate. The greatest example would be energy weapons skill. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] It's not about the game being good or not. A casual game can still be a good game. But in FO4 case it has hurt the game and is an example of a game being dumbed down.[/QUOTE] I agree, but my question has nothing to do with Fallout; I'm just asking what games you like.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49365426]The energy weapons skill was removed, not aborted. That's not what the word abort means. To abort something is to stop its development before it is finished,[/QUOTE] Except it must have been in development if it was taken out and yet they forgot to take out the bobblehead. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=cdr248;49365429]I agree, but my question has nothing to do with Fallout; I'm just asking what games you like.[/QUOTE] RPGs specifically? Divinity and The Witcher are pretty good RPGs. Wasteland 2 was also pretty good. The last dues ex game was pretty good despite being pretty different from the original.
Hey I play wasteland 2. That games for casuals apparently
If you want to talk about shit being "aborted" in Bethesda games, you should be talking about the quests. I've posted about this on various forums ever since Skyrim came out. What Bethesda has done to questing in their games is worthy of being called an abortion IMO. Somebody already posted the comparison between New Vegas and FO4. That is not a small difference. The downgrade in quantity is [I]massive[/I]. Its not something that gets balanced out by an increase in quality either, its a straight downgrade. We've been seeing it since Oblivion was released and it gets worse and worse with every game Bethesda develops. Just take the sad excuses for the guild questlines in Skyrim. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that the College of Winterhold is one of the most pathetic attempts I've ever seen at writing a questline. It's literally 9 quests, including the quest to "Visit the College of Winterhold". The Companions was arguably worse, with only 6 quests in the whole questline (plus 1 shitty radiant quest). Not only this, but both of them were written terribly. You go from joining the guild to completing high level "do or die" type quests without ever feeling any sense of progression. Did Morrowind, Oblivion, or FO3 have perfect questing systems? No, in fact Oblivion actually had less interesting guilds IMO. But removing half the quests is not a solution. These are the problems people should be focusing on in their complaints about Bethesda games. Leveling and the removal of skills are nothing compared to how much of a downgrade the series' have seen due to the problems with quests.
[QUOTE=Metist;49365490]Except it must have been in development if it was taken out and yet they forgot to take out the bobblehead. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] RPGs specifically? Divinity and The Witcher are pretty good RPGs. Wasteland 2 was also pretty good. The last dues ex game was pretty good despite being pretty different from the original.[/QUOTE] Leaving the bobble head in is your evidence? But that's not very good evidence. They wanted a bobble head for everything because energy weapons are definitely their own thing in the game. Energy weapons are either pistols or rifles, like all other "Small guns", they're rolled in in that sense, but as far as how they're crafted, the limitations and requirements for crafting them and the things that are energy weapons specific are all there so you can choose to play down an "Energy Weapons" play style even if that isn't reflected by perks, or skills. Skills being your preferred manner of implementation is fine. But I have real complaints about it, ones you'll mindlessly right off as being casual, but are real actual reasons because the original implementation isn't perfect. Arguing for a better, albeit different system is entirely fine, I would even like to hear what you think would be better, rather than you railing on about changes to the stats/skills being so purely pathetic and casualized. The idea that ONLY ONE OF US can have ideas that are BOTH 1) RPG mechanics and 2) a benefit to the gamer is what bugs me. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Pantz Master;49365534]If you want to talk about shit being "aborted" in Bethesda games, you should be talking about the quests. I've posted about this on various forums ever since Skyrim came out. What Bethesda has done to questing in their games is worthy of being called an abortion IMO. Somebody already posted the comparison between New Vegas and FO4. That is not a small difference. The downgrade in quantity is [I]massive[/I]. Its not something that gets balanced out by an increase in quality either, its a straight downgrade. We've been seeing it since Oblivion was released and it gets worse and worse with every game Bethesda develops. Just take the sad excuses for the guild questlines in Skyrim. I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that the College of Winterhold is one of the most pathetic attempts I've ever seen at writing a questline. It's literally 9 quests, including the quest to "Visit the College of Winterhold". The Companions was arguably worse, with only 6 quests in the whole questline (plus 1 shitty radiant quest). Not only this, but both of them were written terribly. You go from joining the guild to completing high level "do or die" type quests without ever feeling any sense of progression. Did Morrowind, Oblivion, or FO3 have perfect questing systems? No, in fact Oblivion actually had less interesting guilds IMO. But removing half the quests is not a solution. These are the problems people should be focusing on in their complaints about Bethesda games. Leveling and the removal of skills are nothing compared to how much of a downgrade the series' have seen due to the problems with quests.[/QUOTE] I totally agree with this. The way Skyrim had it's guilds structured was pitiful and this game isn't a whole lot better. That is a real issue with the game.
[QUOTE=Metist;49365490]Except it must have been in development if it was taken out and yet they forgot to take out the bobblehead. [/QUOTE] You're taking it a bit to literally. IMO, in this context, an 'abortion' is a [I]complete removal and disregard[/I] for the original in either its concept, design, or genre. Janus' definition kind of applies, it bascially means the removed concept feels as if it isn't even considered from the get-go ie. Syndicate, the first (first announced) XCOM remake or fucking like, iunno man Rainbow Six Lockdown? [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Metist;49365490]RPGs specifically? Divinity and The Witcher are pretty good RPGs. Wasteland 2 was also pretty good. The last dues ex game was pretty good despite being pretty different from the original.[/QUOTE] kk [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] later alligators i gotta sleep
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