Fallout 4 critique: The abortion of RPG mechanics (Self posted, looking for suggestions)
313 replies, posted
Pretty much every fan of Fallout 3, NV, and Fallout 4 will tell you each game has their own glaring flaws. I've never understood the point of all of these videos, who are they preaching to? I already know Bethesda fucked up, most do, so it's basically just circlejerking for people who already dislike the game.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;49368234]Pretty much every fan of Fallout 3, NV, and Fallout 4 will tell you each game has their own glaring flaws. I've never understood the point of all of these videos, who are they preaching to? I already know Bethesda fucked up, most do, so it's basically just circlejerking for people who already dislike the game.[/QUOTE]
If that were true than you wouldn't have most reviewers giving it 9/10s without mentioning these obvious problems. The reason people bring it up is because it is important to understand how "streaming lining" a game will effect it and when again, you see big name sites not mentioning it, it makes people want to talk about these things more.
[editline]22nd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49366888]RPG is a nebulous term so to see people define it so rigidly and arbitrarily is funny[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure player choice is the most important thing about an RPG. This includes stats, dialog and choice.
How would you define RPG's if you don't believe these are important?
[QUOTE=Metist;49369640]If that were true than you wouldn't have most reviewers giving it 9/10s without mentioning these obvious problems. The reason people bring it up is because it is important to understand how "streaming lining" a game will effect it and when again, you see big name sites not mentioning it, it makes people want to talk about these things more.
[editline]22nd December 2015[/editline]
I'm pretty sure player choice is the most important thing about an RPG. This includes stats, dialog and choice.
How would you define RPG's if you don't believe these are important?[/QUOTE]
how would you define Fallout 4 in such a manner that none of those things are present when they all are to varying degrees?
how do you arbitrarily draw a line in the sand and say "Nope, this is it" without seeing the folly of that?
Is a game where I am in control of the stats, dialogue and choice not an RPG by your own admission? How, exactly, does Fallout 4 neglect those categories so entirely that it's by definition, not an RPG?
See, the thing is, I've already admitted it's not a great RPG. It not being a great RPG doesn't affect my enjoyment of it, or the fact it is an RPG.
There's more than one definition, and more than one type of way to make an RPG.
There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;49368234]Pretty much every fan of Fallout 3, NV, and Fallout 4 will tell you each game has their own glaring flaws. I've never understood the point of all of these videos, who are they preaching to? I already know Bethesda fucked up, most do, so it's basically just circlejerking for people who already dislike the game.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Videos like these really don't bring anything new to the table, it just presents things in a matter that we're all familiar with. It doesn't go indepth with the problems and it doesn't really present anything new. I liked Noah Caldwell Gervais' video because I thought it justified some of the complaints in a way that many other people haven't yet considered. OP's video on the other hand just feels like it's preaching to the choir.
[editline]22nd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Metist;49369640]If that were true than you wouldn't have most reviewers giving it 9/10s without mentioning these obvious problems. The reason people bring it up is because it is important to understand how "streaming lining" a game will effect it and when again, you see big name sites not mentioning it, it makes people want to talk about these things more.
[editline]22nd December 2015[/editline]
I'm pretty sure player choice is the most important thing about an RPG. [B]This includes stats, dialog and choice.
[/B]How would you define RPG's if you don't believe these are important?[/QUOTE]
Fallout 4 does include these choices tho
Fallout 4's problem is that these choices are somewhat limited, to say that there are no choices (or arguably that those choices are an illusion) is silly.
[QUOTE=gudman;49367628]I'd say it kind of hurts the "Fallout'ness" of Fallout 4, rather than its "RPG'ness", I think that would be appropriate. Example: the Sole Survivor could've easily had a proper name (like Shepard, for example), as it is its own 'defined' character, albeit bland, uninteresting, unevolving one, generally badly written one. There's no reason to refer to Fo4's PC by a title other than tradition.[/QUOTE]
Fallout 4 is an extremely decent RPG, but a very poor fallout.
if you ripped the leveling system out, and the dialogue and put it into another game it would be considered effective. But in Fallout, it doesn't fit, it's jarring. It's different, and while it isn't a bad system, it isn't better for sure.
[QUOTE=J!NX;49370389]Fallout 4 is an extremely decent RPG, but a very poor fallout.
if you ripped the leveling system out, and the dialogue and put it into another game it would be considered effective. But in Fallout, it doesn't fit, it's jarring. It's different, and while it isn't a bad system, it isn't better for sure.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's pretty much exactly my feelings towards Fo4 neatly summed up.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49369690]how would you define Fallout 4 in such a manner that none of those things are present when they all are to varying degrees?
how do you arbitrarily draw a line in the sand and say "Nope, this is it" without seeing the folly of that?
Is a game where I am in control of the stats, dialogue and choice not an RPG by your own admission? How, exactly, does Fallout 4 neglect those categories so entirely that it's by definition, not an RPG?
See, the thing is, I've already admitted it's not a great RPG. It not being a great RPG doesn't affect my enjoyment of it, or the fact it is an RPG.
There's more than one definition, and more than one type of way to make an RPG.
There's more than one way to skin a cat as they say.[/QUOTE]
Jesus christ. It's amazing how horrible your strawmaning ability and how low your reading comprehension is.
I have never said it was not an RPG. But it is definitely less of one.
The less RPG mechanics it has, the less of an RPG it is. It is that simple.
This thread showed up somewhere else
[URL="http://8ch.net/v/res/7569823.html"]http://8ch.net/v/res/7569823.html[/URL]
Alright which one of you posted this.
[QUOTE=Metist;49370724]Jesus christ. It's amazing how horrible your strawmaning ability and how low your reading comprehension is.
I have never said it was not an RPG. But it is definitely less of one.
The less RPG mechanics it has, the less of an RPG it is. It is that simple.[/QUOTE]
you complain about strawmans but you don't fret for a second when shoving words in my mouth.
By your own definition, it's not an "ABORTION" of RPG mechanics as you said as that would imply the absence of them as you have hyperbolicly done all thread.
How bad is YOUR reading comprehension that you can read me say "I don't think it's a great RPG" yet you still can't stop with your contrived nonsense?
I'm happy to let you have your definition of RPG's, just stop acting like it's anything but "Your" definition. I don't get why you're even so hostile towards me having another opinion than yourself unless you just "hate casuals" that much lol
[QUOTE=Durrsly;49370794]This thread showed up somewhere else
[URL="http://8ch.net/v/res/7569823.html"]http://8ch.net/v/res/7569823.html[/URL]
Alright which one of you posted this.[/QUOTE]
Probably whoever seems the most butthurt in this thread.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49370803]I don't think it's a great RPG" [/QUOTE]
And yet you get mad every time you read someone criticize the game.
People have explained in detail how it hurts it's RPG mechanics or how it took good things out from the previous games. No one has called the game 1/10 shit and I don't think it is. I just think it's mediocre and not a very good RPG compared to the previous games and because of it I am not looking forward to Elder scrolls 5 or "Skyrim 2" as a dev at Bethesda called it.
[QUOTE=Metist;49371110]And yet you get mad every time you read someone criticize the game.
People have explained in detail how it hurts it's RPG mechanics or how it took good things out from the previous games. No one has called the game 1/10 shit and I don't think it is. I just think it's mediocre and not a very good RPG compared to the previous games and because of it I am not looking forward to Elder scrolls 5 or "Skyrim 2" as a dev at Bethesda called it.[/QUOTE]
I never got mad anyone didn't like it lol.
I got frustrated over the hyperbolic and extreme exaggeration tone that you've displayed all thread.
I don't think it's a great RPG, but I don't think it's by definition an "Abortion" as it doesn't remove those so called features from the game as you argue.
Fuck it, think whatever you want and argue as hyperbolically and vitrollicaly as you want. Call me a baby and a filthy casual and the detriment to your favourite genre all you want. Go for it pal. You're clearly the bigger man. Sorry I ever dared to disagree with your hyperbolic, condescending and egotistical tone whilst I enjoyed a game that you didn't.
[QUOTE=Metist;49371110]And yet you get mad every time you read someone criticize the game.
People have explained in detail how it hurts it's RPG mechanics or how it took good things out from the previous games. No one has called the game 1/10 shit and I don't think it is. I just think it's mediocre and not a very good RPG compared to the previous games and because of it I am not looking forward to Elder scrolls 5 or "Skyrim 2" as a dev at Bethesda called it.[/QUOTE]
I can't speak for others but I'm not angry that you're criticizing the game, I just think it's stupid when you call the game an abortion of rpg mechanics. The game didn't go full-on Call of Duty, it was just a fucking pathetic attempt of an rpg.
[QUOTE=cdr248;49371150]I can't speak for others but I'm not angry that you're criticizing the game, I just think it's stupid when you call the game an abortion of rpg mechanics. The game didn't go full-on Call of Duty, it was just a fucking pathetic attempt of an rpg.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and I've even said so repeatedly in this very thread.
i'm 99% sure metist is a troll or whatever solely because of how much i've actually gone out of my way to say "Hey I agree with you about this" whilst still getting shit on for saying anything positive about the game in any context, even if it's just to counter purely, exaggerated negative nonsense.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49371158]Yeah, and I've even said so repeatedly in this very thread.
i'm 99% sure metist is a troll or whatever solely because of how much i've actually gone out of my way to say "Hey I agree with you about this" whilst still getting shit on for saying anything positive about the game in any context, even if it's just to counter purely, exaggerated negative nonsense.[/QUOTE]
Call the people who disagree with you a troll. You are totally being the bigger man.
The series literally aborted mechanics but you are sad that you think the word is too strong and offensive apparently. If you were sure I was a troll you wouldn't even have been talking to me. You are just mad that people aren't agreeing with you and that others think you are an idiot.
I'm really only in on this for the post count
i think i've made my argument pretty clear for the last 2-3 pages, no?
[editline]22nd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Metist;49371181]Call the people who disagree with you a troll. You are totally being the bigger man.
The series literally aborted mechanics but you are sad that you think the word is too strong and offensive apparently. If you were sure I was a troll you wouldn't even have been talking to me. You are just mad that people aren't agreeing with you and that others think you are an idiot.[/QUOTE]
abortion isn't even offensive it's just that the context you're using it is is ridiculous
in the context not related to fetuses n shit, the word abortion is literally an expression that carries much more symbolic meaning than simply being a substitute for "removed" or "changed".
[QUOTE=Metist;49371181]Call the people who disagree with you a troll. You are totally being the bigger man.
The series literally aborted mechanics but you are sad that you think the word is too strong and offensive apparently. If you were sure I was a troll you wouldn't even have been talking to me. You are just mad that people aren't agreeing with you and that others think you are an idiot.[/QUOTE]
1) you repeatedly act with out right hostility to my opinions
2) I don't care about abortion being offensive, it's fucking inaccurate
3) I don't honestly care if people on the internet think my opinions about games are stupid
Honestly it comes to a difference of what you want from a Fallout game.
Do you want a freedom of choice RPG that has indepth and sometimes nebulous complexity that doesn't help?
Do you want a cookie cutter 'me-too' perk system that removes some of the depth but is a lot more immediate and user friendly?
For many hardcore Fallout Fans, the former seems like a better choice whilst for people are new or feel that the game needs to 'evolve'(whether it needs to can be debated at a later date) would go with the latter.
Suffice it to say, we're never going to exactly agree on this. I preordered Fallout 4, I wasn't expecting it to be great and I knew it was going to miss the mark. Basically, I knew what I was getting into, however after playing the game for 60 hours I had several occurrences.
A.I kept restarting. Midgame. I was expecting something more and every time I'd find a little piece of more but only to have the game slap me with just the sheer amount of lack of content.
B.I didn't feel like I was playing a character building game, it felt like a practice in trying to act like there is character building whilst also handing me the pre-rendered sheet of a class I never signed on for.
C. The 'infinite' quests are basically a rehash of fucking Skyrim quests. Get thing, defend place, make settlement. The difference between the two is that you can avoid the quests in SKyrim, especially for the minutemen, you just a laundry list of shit you don't care about.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49371231]Honestly it comes to a difference of what you want from a Fallout game.
Do you want a freedom of choice RPG that has indepth and sometimes nebulous complexity that doesn't help?
Do you want a cookie cutter 'me-too' perk system that removes some of the depth but is a lot more immediate and user friendly?
For many hardcore Fallout Fans, the former seems like a better choice whilst for people are new or feel that the game needs to 'evolve'(whether it needs to can be debated at a later date) would go with the latter.
Suffice it to say, we're never going to exactly agree on this. I preordered Fallout 4, I wasn't expecting it to be great and I knew it was going to miss the mark. Basically, I knew what I was getting into, however after playing the game for 60 hours I had several occurrences.
A.I kept restarting. Midgame. I was expecting something more and every time I'd find a little piece of more but only to have the game slap me with just the sheer amount of lack of content.
B.I didn't feel like I was playing a character building game, it felt like a practice in trying to act like there is character building whilst also handing me the pre-rendered sheet of a class I never signed on for.
C. The 'infinite' quests are basically a rehash of fucking Skyrim quests. Get thing, defend place, make settlement. The difference between the two is that you can avoid the quests in SKyrim, especially for the minutemen, you just a laundry list of shit you don't care about.[/QUOTE]
I fully agree with this
Thanks for taking the time to write that non hyperbolically
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49371229]1) you repeatedly act with out right hostility to my opinions
[/QUOTE]
So you are going to get offended over percieved tone on the internet rather than simply the argument being presented?
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49371229]2) I don't care about abortion being offensive, it's fucking inaccurate
[/QUOTE]
Abortion:an object or undertaking regarded by the speaker as unpleasant or badly made or carried out.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49371229]3) I don't honestly care if people on the internet think my opinions about games are stupid
[/QUOTE]
And yet you care if someone's "tone" on the internet is "hostile"?
I am no where near as hostile as /v/.
[QUOTE=Metist;49371252]So you are going to get offended over percieved tone on the internet rather than simply the argument being presented?
Abortion:an object or undertaking regarded by the speaker as unpleasant or badly made or carried out.
And yet you care if someone's "tone" on the internet is "hostile"?
I am no where near as hostile as /v/.[/QUOTE]
Over your perceived tone where you repeatedly, over and over again belittled me and my taste in games? What argument? That elements of it have been toned down? Sure, I've agreed with you but you seem pretty set on attacking me for saying "Toned down" rather than aborted
Aborted meaning removed in its entirety. Certainly doesn't fit here. It's not accurate so how is your argument of any value if it's inaccurate and semantic?
I don't go to /v/ so why would I care about what they think about me? They can say whatever they want about me. You're here telling me not just that I'm wrong, but that I'm a "lesser gamer" than you because I apparently enjoy some degree of "casual" elements from time to time.
You're not even arguing with me you're just berating me.
The reason, I'm against the perk system, is that it is definitely like other more recent RPGs.
Which begs the question, why the hell should I play it? For the universe? Well I've already stated out empty and dead the gameworld feels like?
[QUOTE=Swilly;49371301]The reason, I'm against the perk system, is that it is definitely like other more recent RPGs.
Which begs the question, why the hell should I play it? For the universe? Well I've already stated out empty and dead the gameworld feels like?[/QUOTE]
I think there is a degree of subjectivity to it. The world and characters feel more alive to me this time around. Sure, there is definitely alot of dead end where you wish and could imagine them going further with something, and certaintly there is alot of cut content, but overall the polish makes suspense of disbelief easier than in the last game.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;49371358]I think there is a degree of subjectivity to it. The world and characters feel more alive to me this time around. Sure, there is definitely alot of dead end where you wish and could imagine them going further with something, and certaintly there is alot of cut content, but overall the polish makes suspense of disbelief easier than in the last game.[/QUOTE]
Subjectivity is the operative word because it was the exact opposite for me; I spent more time wondering when the next scripted fight was going to happen.
There are moments where the game feels alive and its jaw dropping but the disparity between the two is so fucking large the moment you leave one trench you're in a no-man's land of, "Uhhh".
Also as for polish, it definitely does have clean sheen but it's similar to washing and polishing the outside of the car but retaining the jizz stains within the backseat.
This isn't to say the outside is pretty but you can definitly see the age of a lot of the gamebyro bits now due to the visually stunning polish. Especially when something breaths and talks.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49371286]You're not even arguing with me you're just berating me.[/QUOTE]
It's amazing how hard you are trying to get out of the argument by saying I am just being mean.
I have explained over and over how it is literally aborted by the definition of aborted and you keep on saying it doesn't count for some reason because my tone of voice or whatever logical fallacy you want to bring up.
Again.
Abortion:an object or undertaking regarded by the speaker as unpleasant or badly made or carried out.
It fits the definition.
[QUOTE=Metist;49371604]It's amazing how hard you are trying to get out of the argument by saying I am just being mean.
I have explained over and over how it is literally aborted by the definition of aborted and you keep on saying it doesn't count for some reason because my tone of voice or whatever logical fallacy you want to bring up.
Again.
Abortion:an object or undertaking regarded by the speaker as unpleasant or badly made or carried out.
It fits the definition.[/QUOTE]
I have never heard 'abortion' ever used with that definition before
[QUOTE=Metist;49371604]It's amazing how hard you are trying to get out of the argument by saying I am just being mean.
I have explained over and over how it is literally aborted by the definition of aborted and you keep on saying it doesn't count for some reason because my tone of voice or whatever logical fallacy you want to bring up.
Again.
Abortion:an object or undertaking regarded by the speaker as unpleasant or badly made or carried out.
It fits the definition.[/QUOTE]
So you'll define a word as you see fit to argue you're right?
Yeup. good job.
It's literally not an abortion/aborted because it doesn't fit, it isn't accurate, that isn't how that words used.
[editline]22nd December 2015[/editline]
It doesn't count because saying the word "Shit" suddenly means "Tasty ice cream" doesn't count. You can't just redefine a word and call yourself the winner
or well you can, like you have been this whole time
how about we stop using the word abortion because it's a stupid way to describe the quality (or even absence) of the game's mechanics and is literally the only reason why we're arguing (not counting all this vendetta shit you guys have)
[QUOTE=cdr248;49371627]I have never heard 'abortion' ever used with that definition before[/QUOTE]
That doesn't make it not a definition.
Now are you just going to argue that you don't agree with it's dictionary definition?
[editline]22nd December 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49371664]So you'll define a word as you see fit to argue you're right?[/QUOTE]
Except that is it's literal definition.
Are you being serious right now?
[QUOTE=Metist;49372244]That doesn't make it not a definition.
Now are you just going to argue that you don't agree with it's dictionary definition?
[editline]22nd December 2015[/editline]
Except that is it's literal definition.
Are you being serious right now?[/QUOTE]
So even if we accept that your definition is the correct one(Which by the way, all you did was google it and take the google response, not a dictionary)
[QUOTE]
an object or undertaking regarded [B]by the speaker[/B] as unpleasant or badly made or carried out.[/QUOTE]
So all YOUR DEFINITION is saying, is that IN YOUR OPINION, it is. So, why all this bullshit, and bluster about YOUR definition of an RPG being THE definition of an RPG?
but if we look at a dictionary
[url]http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/abortion[/url]
[url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abortion[/url]
Your definition simply doesn't fucking exist.
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