Dear Publishers: Stop censoring your games, it's not helping (self Posted) - General

Idk I think changes like that are there to make the games more inclusive and accessible to a female audience. Seeing women's bodies exploited and sexualised is super tiring for the female audience and diminishing it is a good way to let them feel more included. It's really not a big deal for you to give up something so insignificant so that women and girls who want to play the game are more comfortable.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49695969]there's a difference in those two in that LGBT issues being censored actively leads to more people of LGBT persuasion to suffer from exclusion, prejudice, and possible violence while censoring an ass slap probably won't...do anything......[/QUOTE] Except justify more censorship. If I was going to take it to the level of extreme you are I could say that censoring female sexuality will foster a culture where women aren't allowed to express themselves freely. In fact we are already seeing cases of this in more extreme places in America. Feminists of the 70s fought tooth and nail to show the girl that women can and should be able to be expressed in any way. Now for some reason people want to do away with this. Look how much hate Bayonetta got for example. A strong, sexually empowered women designed by a women. [editline]7th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Flyingman356;49695987]Idk I think changes like that are there to make the games more inclusive and accessible to a female audience. Seeing women's bodies exploited and sexualised is super tiring for the female audience and diminishing it is a good way to let them feel more included. It's really not a big deal for you to give up something so insignificant so that women and girls who want to play the game are more comfortable.[/QUOTE] Why are you generalizing women? If women feel threatened by sexual depictions of other women then shouldn't men be threatened by big, buff, almost naked and handsome Ryu? I know many women and everyone I know who plays videogames see nothing wrong with it. Notice how at cosplay conventions many women tend to pic sexy or strong women?

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49695993]Except justify more censorship. If I was going to take it to the level of extreme you are I could say that censoring female sexuality will foster a culture where women aren't allowed to express themselves freely. In fact we are already seeing cases of this in more extreme places in America. Feminists of the 70s fought tooth and nail to show the girl that women can and should be able to be expressed in any way. Now for some reason people want to do away with this. Look how much hate Bayonetta got for example. A strong, sexually empowered women designed by a women.[/QUOTE] the difference is, this is not a character who has autonomy. this character was created for a purpose. this character did not make the decision herself to dress as she does do what she does. i mean i see what you're saying! i do but that only really applies to people who can actively make those choices for themselves. its kind of the same reason why the whole "quiet wears skimpy clothes for a reason" is silly because okay maybe she does but you created that reason and you could have not... [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49695993] Why are you generalizing women? If women feel threatened by sexual depictions of other women then shouldn't men be threatened by big, buff, almost naked and handsome Ryu? I know many women and everyone I know who plays videogames see nothing wrong with it. Notice how at cosplay conventions many women tend to pic sexy or strong women?[/QUOTE] men are totally allowed to be offended by a naked ryu and no one says they're not allowed to. and in the same way that his anecdotal evidence can't be applied to all women, neither can yours.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49695981]anita and jonathan are hardly examples of your average consumer in that they are both kind of bad[/QUOTE] The problem is that they're listening to people like this instead of the consumers that buy their products.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49696005]the difference is, this is not a character who has autonomy. this character was created for a purpose. this character did not make the decision herself to dress as she does do what she does..[/QUOTE] You can say the exact same thing about gay people in other media. Just like how you believe showing gay people in media could help gays not feel threatened, the same could be said about sexually empowered women. So are you saying strong men in a videogame are making the game "not inclusive" to men as well?

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49696011]The problem is that they're listening to people like this instead of the consumers that buy their products.[/QUOTE] which means they haven't done enough research into why people who are actually justifying their reasonings and conveying them in a reasonable and nonconfrontational manner want them to make these small changes and they should be putting forth the effort to understand an array of opinions about their work and what they should or shouldn't do, regarding it. just seems like poor planning to NOT put an active effort towards this kind of research.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49695993]Except justify more censorship. If I was going to take it to the level of extreme you are I could say that censoring female sexuality will foster a culture where women aren't allowed to express themselves freely. In fact we are already seeing cases of this in more extreme places in America. Feminists of the 70s fought tooth and nail to show the girl that women can and should be able to be expressed in any way. Now for some reason people want to do away with this. Look how much hate Bayonetta got for example. A strong, sexually empowered women designed by a women. [editline]7th February 2016[/editline] Why are you generalizing women? If women feel threatened by sexual depictions of other women then shouldn't men be threatened by big, buff, almost naked and handsome Ryu? I know many women and everyone I know who plays videogames see nothing wrong with it. Notice how at cosplay conventions many women tend to pic sexy or strong women?[/QUOTE] The problem is that things like a girl slapping her ass while the camera zooms in on it aren't there to promote female sexual freedom, they're there to pander to the male audience and most women are super uncomfortable with things like that. You can bring up an example like Bayonetta, and I'm a fan of the Bayonetta series, I think she's got some great depth as a character but you can't deny that she's hypersexualised and it's not for the sake of a female power fantasy, being designed by a woman doesn't change the fact that she's clearly designed to be appealing to a young male audience. You're equating female sexuality with things that are actually made to pander to male sexuality and do very little to empower women. Something like "sexy" Ryu is a false equivalence because that's clearly not there to please a female audience. It's a male power fantasy, a man looking like that is what men fantasise about being rather than what women fantasise about fucking, that's the ideal male from a male perspective, not the ideal male from a female perspective.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696029]You can say the exact same thing about gay people in other media. Just like how you believe showing gay people in media could help gays not feel threatened, the same could be said about sexually empowered women. So are you saying strong men in a videogame are making the game "not inclusive" to men as well?[/QUOTE] if a man told me that he felt that a game was not inclusive to him because it involved a power fantasy male, then sure, I would take his opinion into account. but im sure as people have brought up before, male sexuality and woman sexuality are seen as inherently different within media. a sexualized male is generally seen as the one in charge, the one dominating and the one in power, while the woman is very often seen as a subservient to a product or to another thing within the media. THAT'S A WHOLE nother topic but what im saying is, the criticism of the action is no less valid than your criticism of a game or other form of media where a man was sexualized to the point that it made you uncomfortable.

[QUOTE=Flyingman356;49696036]The problem is that things like a girl slapping her ass while the camera zooms in on it aren't there to promote female sexual freedom, they're there to pander to the male audience and most women are super uncomfortable with things like that.[/QUOTE] You are really going to need evidence to back up that claim. You are saying a sexy female character is there to please a man but for some reason a sexy male is not there to please a women? Why? You are saying it's pandering as if something can't show female empowerment and at the same time give men boners. What if I am attracted to empowered women? Doesn't that make a paradox? You are saying these claims about what women want and don't want and if you want I can actually get 3 women to tell you what they want. Sure, they don't speak for all women, but neither do you.

ultimately, i feel like any criticism of a video game or other form of media is totally valid, provided that it has reasoning behind it. and men are no less allowed to make critique about video games (as they often do for multiple reasons) than women are or anyone of any other sort of gender preference. there are gonna be dumb opinions, but the removal of an ass slap is certainly not one of them. i can see reasons for leaving it out and i can see maybe one or two for leaving it in. either way, pushing down a voice that says "hey, maybe i wanna play this cool game but this small bit is making me uncomfortable!" just because this character is "iconic" for a negligible action ain't rly cool and doesn't really do much in the ways of artistic freedom beyond give the impression that all the consumer cares about is the sexual promiscuity of the character. [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696049]You are really going to need evidence to back up that claim. You are saying a sexy female character is there to please a man but for some reason a sexy male is not there to please a women? Why? You are saying it's pandering as if something can't show female empowerment and at the same time give men boners. What if I am attracted to empowered women? Doesn't that make a paradox? You are saying these claims about what women want and don't want and if you want I can actually get 3 women to tell you what they want. Sure, they don't speak for all women, but neither do you.[/QUOTE] i wouldn't wanna fuck ryu is all im gonna say idk lmao

[QUOTE=Pascall;49696043]THAT'S A WHOLE nother topic but what im saying is, the criticism of the action is no less valid than your criticism of a game or other form of media where a man was sexualized to the point that it made you uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] A male being sexualized doesn't make me uncomfortable. I see no idea why it would. Explain to me how Rainbow Mika isn't "The one in charge". You are making standards for men and saying they don't work for women without giving evidence to why. Rainbow Mika is sexualized, Rainbow Mika is powerful, Rainbow Mika is in charge.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696049]You are really going to need evidence to back up that claim. You are saying a sexy female character is there to please a man but for some reason a sexy male is not there to please a women? Why?[/QUOTE] "Something like "sexy" Ryu is a false equivalence because that's clearly not there to please a female audience. It's a male power fantasy, a man looking like that is what men fantasise about being rather than what women fantasise about fucking, that's the ideal male from a male perspective, not the ideal male from a female perspective. " -me in the same post you quoted reading is a good thing to do

[QUOTE=Flyingman356;49696061]"Something like "sexy" Ryu is a false equivalence because that's clearly not there to please a female audience[/QUOTE] How do you know? Also, there are many women who fantasize about being sexy and powerful. Why do you think women cosplay as sexy and powerful women?

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696059]A male being sexualized doesn't make me uncomfortable. I see no idea why it would. Explain to me how Rainbow Mika isn't "The one in charge". You are making standards for men and saying they don't work for women without giving evidence to why. Rainbow Mika is sexualized, Rainbow Mika is powerful, Rainbow Mika is in charge.[/QUOTE] see in my life i like to imagine that in my life, i too am often powerful and in charge but i can show that without slapping my butt............ it's not that she ISN'T in charge im just saying that an ass slap is not necessary to convey that lol also i know a male being sexualized doens't make you uncomfortable! many men do not have the consequences that come from being sexualized in the media and in real life. obviously, SOME men do but much of what women experience (cat calling, creepy advances, threat of sexual assault in public places, threat of being drugged via a date-rape drug, etc. etc.) can seem to be inevitable when people are okay with a character, created by men, actively displaying an overly sexual behavior and people being like "yeah that's good and probably fine". it's hard to explain the frame of mind to someone who is not familiar with that daily fear?? so i can't really do it for you. but it's a real thing.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696068]How do you know?[/QUOTE] The thing is that you're the one making the initial point that "sexy" Ryu is equivalent to sexualised female characters and that puts the onus on you to explain why. You haven't done that. If you plan on doing that then I'll be able to respond to it but I've made my point, and I explained it in the part you snipped out of the quote. "a man looking like that is what men fantasise about being rather than what women fantasise about fucking, that's the ideal male from a male perspective, not the ideal male from a female perspective." You really need to stop picking out the part of my post where i make the initial point, snipping the part where I explain it and then asking me to explain it. Makes it look like you can't read and I've had to repost the same thing 3 times now to make sure you get it.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49696050] i wouldn't wanna fuck ryu is all im gonna say idk lmao[/QUOTE] Well I know men who wouldn't want to have sex with Bayo because of her proportions. What is your point?

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696068]How do you know? Also, there are many women who fantasize about being sexy and powerful. Why do you think women cosplay as sexy and powerful women?[/QUOTE] they do but again it's their own choice to be sexy and powerful mika isn't a real person!

[QUOTE=Flyingman356;49696089]The thing is that you're the one making the initial point that "sexy" Ryu is equivalent to sexualised female characters and that puts the onus on you to explain why. You haven't done that. If you plan on doing that then I'll be able to respond to it but I've made my point, and I explained it in the part you snipped out of the quote. "a man looking like that is what men fantasise about being rather than what women fantasise about fucking, that's the ideal male from a male perspective, not the ideal male from a female perspective." [/QUOTE] Both are attractive, wear not very much and are designed specifically to be sexy.

Publishers changing the game to suit tastes other than specifically yours is not censoring - It's changing the product to include another audience group. Depiction of women in videogames is the thing the Internet randomly decided to get mad about for some time, so publishers are having a knee-jerk reaction in order to try to avoid bad publicity. Which is a bigger concern nowadays when games are more expensive to make and has to sell well to break even.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49696092]they do but again it's their own choice to be sexy and powerful mika isn't a real person![/QUOTE] Either is Ryu. So I don't see what point you are trying to make. If Mika isn't real then there is even less of a point to being offended by it. By your logic people shouldn't care about cenorship of homosexuality in cartoons and TV shows because they aren't really gay people.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696090]Well I know men who wouldn't want to have sex with Bayo because of her proportions. What is your point?[/QUOTE] my point is, neither character is "sexy" to all people and so the fact that she (or any other character) HAS to be "sexy" to be herself, doesn't make a whole lotta sense because preference is obvs subjective

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696097]Both are attractive, wear not very much and are designed specifically to be sexy.[/QUOTE] unless you're a woman who's sexually attracted to men you can't speak for what women find sexually attractive in men. That Ryu skin represents the typical ideal body image from a male perspective, it has nothing to do with what women find attractive. If you're going to say that the Ryu skin was specifically designed to be sexy, you need to give some explanation of why you think that because it's not evident at all and it seems more like it's there for men who want to look extra tough and powerful to play as. A character like Bayonetta is not designed for women to be able to relate to her and feel empowered, the camera constantly focusing on her ass and breasts should be evidence enough that she's like that to appeal to a straight male audience.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49696112]my point is, neither character is "sexy" to all people and so the fact that she (or any other character) HAS to be "sexy" to be herself, doesn't make a whole lotta sense because preference is obvs subjective[/QUOTE] She doesn't have to be sexy to be herself. However her slapping her butt definitely is her being herself. It's an action she would so. You finding the butt slap sexy or not doesn't make a difference. I ain't gay but I would also be mad if they censored Jojo's hyper sexualization as well. [img]http://orig00.deviantart.net/f100/f/2013/163/d/0/jojo_s_bizarre_adventure__kars_esidisi_wamuu__by_belladonna_mio-d68q7uv.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696105]Either is Ryu. So I don't see what point you are trying to make. If Mika isn't real then there is even less of a point to being offended by it. By your logic people shouldn't care about cenorship of homosexuality in cartoons and TV shows because they aren't really gay people.[/QUOTE] ur missing my point entirely im not saying that ryu is not also sexualized. he totally is. and if someone came up to me and was like, im not okay with that, then i would respect their opinion. mika isn't real and that means that any excuse that this is how she's showing her "power" is moot because she's not doing it. her creator is. by my logic, people should care about the censorship of homosexuality because, as i said before!, it can actively lead to violence against an already oppressed group of people. all homosexual people want their rights not all women want to use sex as a power-status symbol

[QUOTE=Flyingman356;49696120]unless you're a woman who's sexually attracted to men you can't speak for what women find sexually attractive in men. That Ryu skin represents the typical ideal body image from a male perspective, it has nothing to do with what women find attractive.[/QUOTE] Again, more assumptions and statements without proof. You have no idea who's view they took it from.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696125]Again, more assumptions and statements without proof. You have no idea who's view they took it from.[/QUOTE] Neither do you! You're the one who made the initial statement that it was "sexy" Ryu, designed to be sexy, and what I'm saying is that you don't know that and to me it seems to be something else entirely. The point I'm trying to make is that you're not holding yourself to the standard you hold others to.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49696122]ur missing my point entirely im not saying that ryu is not also sexualized. he totally is. and if someone came up to me and was like, im not okay with that, then i would respect their opinion. mika isn't real and that means that any excuse that this is how she's showing her "power" is moot because she's not doing it. her creator is. by my logic, people should care about the censorship of homosexuality because, as i said before!, it can actively lead to violence against an already oppressed group of people. all homosexual people want their rights not all women want to use sex as a power-status symbol[/QUOTE] I never said I didn't care about censorship of homosexuality, unlike you I care about all censorship. Not just ones that I personally like. A character being in character and showing a specific thing is important. Can I not get angry at someone not acting in character or being arbitrarily changed or character lessened because it isn't real? Then you shouldn't care about gays in cartoons. But your logic is incredibly flawed. You can't just say it doesn't matter because she isn't real. [editline]7th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Flyingman356;49696137]Neither do you! You're the one who made the initial statement that it was "sexy" Ryu, designed to be sexy, and what I'm saying is that you don't know that[/QUOTE] It doesn't matter hows view it is. Both characters are sexy, powerful and a lot of skin. You are bringing up viewpoints as if it actually matters. I can just as easily say that you don't know Mika was made with male viewers in mind.

lmfao you're not making any sense at all my dude censorship is a very wide array of things and topics and subjects. some issues of censorship have absolutely zero to do with another i.e. ass slaps and gay cartoons???? ? ? ? ?? ? that's like equating censorship of "fuck" on the radio to the erasure of black history in an american history course one has nothing to do with the other !! but im not gonna sit here and try and explain that what im trying to get across is that you should be respectful of people from all walks of life and their criticism of different forms of media that could very possibly make said media more accessible to certain groups, so long as said criticism is validated with reasonable effort.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696139]It doesn't matter hows view it is. Both characters are sexy, powerful and a lot of skin. You are bringing up viewpoints as if it actually matters. I can just as easily say that you don't know Mika was made with male viewers in mind.[/QUOTE] Are you seriously trying to tell me that you don't think the perspective of the audience matters in media? Literally the entire purpose of media is to communicate with and entertain people. If your product fails to reach people because of the way it's constructed, then that's a failing. Of course it matters, it's the only thing that matters when designing media for people. What you consider to be censorship, I consider to be changes deliberately made to be more inclusive to a wider audience. If you have to give up something tiny so more people can feel comfortable and welcome, you'll just have to suck it up and accept that not everything's for you

[QUOTE=Flyingman356;49696163]Are you seriously trying to tell me that you don't think the perspective of the audience matters in media?[/QUOTE] Considering you just admitted you or I can't determine who's perspective either character is based on then in this case it doesn't matter. We can't know if it was made from a female or male perspective. Assuming one way or the other is wrong. And justifying sexuality from one perspective but not the other is even worse and literally sexist.