Dear Publishers: Stop censoring your games, it's not helping (self Posted) - General

I think if they don't want to make anyone mad they should just do what Hotline Miami did and add an option to turn off the sexual stuff except you know make it work

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49696175]Considering you just admitted you or I can't determine who's perspective either character is based on then in this case it doesn't matter.[/QUOTE] You can't determine with absolute 100% certainty but in most cases it's clear and evident. Would you honestly tell me you believe that the camera zooming in on a woman's ass is there for women to feel empowered? It's obvious that it's there to appeal to straight men who want to see closeups of a woman's ass. It's just a straight up fact that this kind of thing makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, it makes me cringe out of how transparent it is. For you to be so incredibly oblivious to this makes it seem like you're either a complete moron or you're being willfully ignorant to back up a point that you know isn't correct.

You make a solid point that it's not really in some of these developers best financial interests to change aspects of their game but thoroughly failed to convince me that self-censorship is inherently a moral wrong. Additionally it's sort of hypocritical to take this position that developers and publishers deserve complete and total freedom in how they make and market their products then inject your own moral imperatives upon them, as if they owe you your boob sliders and fighting game ass slaps. It's okay to criticize that decision, because it seems to be a huge misunderstanding of who exactly constitutes the Western audience for this game, and I agree especially with the point that the vocal minority of people who would actually complain about the things in this video were never planning on buying those types of games anyway, but you completely lose me when talking about the moral aspect of this.

The only criticism I have is with your music choice. Most of what you were saying was spot on, it's just that the music didn't fit.

If her ass slap doesn't matter, then don't get mad at it and ask for it to be removed.

a company can do whatever they want with their own product, whatever they pay for it. i just find it sad that something as minor as that buttslap could make someone uncomfortable, especially in the context of a fighting game where everyone is super exaggerated and unrealistic already. nobody should look at street fighter and think it is anything close to representative of reality

[QUOTE=Xubs;49696248]I really am getting sick of men speaking entirely on behalf of women, saying what we "do" and "don't" want. It's extremely patronizing. This entire line of argument is extremely patronizing because you're unintentionally taking away the voice of the many women who really just don't care or are actively agreeing with imasillypiggy, such as myself and my friends. Most of the women I hang out with either don't care or are actively mad that they changed it. I don't know many at all who has told me they thought it was "creepy," or "drove them away," from the game. The only time I have ever heard anyone talk from that perspective is men SAYING women think that way, not women actually telling me they think that way. When you say "all straight women" think this way it comes off as patronizing and like you think you know what's best for us. I used to debate about this stuff more often but this line of reasoning, men speaking on behalf of what ALL WOMEN want because they KNOW what ALL WOMEN want is why I stopped, it got too annoying to handle. Maybe you should really just change the way you talk about this argument because it comes off like you think you know better than even women do about themselves. This applies to more people than just yourself, since I've seen it come into play pretty much every time the argument comes up from every single man or woman who is on the other side of the argument. People seem to think there's literally no way a woman can ever think the opposite of sexual appeal towards men being gross and creepy.[/QUOTE] We have a huge problem in Western society where (mostly female) sexuality is seen as something that is 'inappropriate' and 'wrong' and I think it is pretty harmful but also really sad that people feel like they need to de-sex things in order for pieces of media to be 'respectful'. It's disappointing that a basic part of human nature and storytelling is condemned and people are made to feel horrible about themselves because someone else feels that they have the right to play armchair psychologist and put people down for enjoying things that they don't. [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3yhJVay.jpg[/IMG] To hammer the point home, the comic on the left was made by a man.

"Male Power Fantasy" is a term that has been ruined in this type of connotation that it really isn't a descriptor anymore. Like if I hear someone use it in a sexism argument it makes me not take their point seriously.

Is it just me, or does the argument "Women being sexy is a male sexual fantasy; Men being sexy is a male power fantasy" sound incredibly male-centric? I think even Freud would be rolling in his grave every time someone uses that argument seriously, [b]especially[/b] when it's a man arguing on behalf of women. In fact, I think that such an argument is the perfect way to find that certain class of people who fit in the "Nice Guy" trope - not the "nice guy" trope, but the "Nice Guy" trope. You all know the type: the gentleman whose always polite and quick to defend women, fully with the preconception in mind of "if I'm nice with her then she'll fuck me silly" and then completely blow a gasket when the woman isn't interested in him. Because that's all this argument feels like to me. A thin ruse that people use to make themselves look like they're respecting women by arguing for them, when in reality they're being just as sexist (nay, usually [b]more[/b] sexist) than the people they're arguing against. But then, that's just like, my opinion, man. Maybe I'm the only one to share it.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;49696842]a company can do whatever they want with their own product, whatever they pay for it. i just find it sad that something as minor as that buttslap could make someone uncomfortable, especially in the context of a fighting game where everyone is super exaggerated and unrealistic already. nobody should look at street fighter and think it is anything close to representative of reality[/QUOTE] Japanese developers and publishers seem to be under the impression that the vocal minority of people who have a problem with things like these represent the average video game consumer in America which just isn't true. Not to even mention that again these people in all likelihood wouldn't buy those games anyway, while the opposite is true of the people who do actually care about things like this. I'd wager the vast majority of people who play SFV, or even "main Mika", would even notice. The average video gamer is just not looking at details like that. But the hardcore fanbase that is going to consistently buy your games entry after entry do. And I say this is a Japanese problem because American and European developers don't seem to have a problem showing off tits and ass in their games and getting away with it, as it were. It's bewildering. I genuinely believed the DoA X-treme not being ported story was just an elaborate marketing scheme until I found out that they sell most of their units in America anyway. I can't believe companies actually think Western consumers are like that. [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Gmod4ever;49696984]Is it just me, or does the argument "Women being sexy is a male sexual fantasy; Men being sexy is a male power fantasy" sound incredibly male-centric? I think even Freud would be rolling in his grave every time someone uses that argument seriously, [b]especially[/b] when it's a man arguing on behalf of women.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's male centric, I just think it's incredibly subjective. What someone considers a power fantasy differs wildly from person to person just like what someone finds sexy differs from person to person. Taking that comic as an example, I am fully willing to give the author the benefit of the doubt that he is really just writing for a female he knows in real life, someone who would find a Batman with more androgynous features more attractive. The problem is that this doesn't make him not a male power fantasy if atleast one dude out there still thinks he is, and there is nothing objectively not attractive about Batman as he is traditionally portrayed. I'm sure some women think Batman is sexy as fuck.

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;49695554] I am always looking for criticism and tips. I am still new at video making and please share your thoughts.[/QUOTE] Video-wise your quality jumps all over and looping the fucking ass-slap 30 times doesn't help your argument at all Actually taking the time to get first-hand footage is always a nice addition. The photos and Funny Cartoons are out of place in a serious discussion, and the entire "but it sells more in the west" point (your only point that isn't anecdotal evidence) is completely moot, have you noticed how fucking massive the western market is? Here's the top-selling games for PS3: [t]http://i.imgur.com/PozivBJ.png[/t] Notice how the US sales double or triple the Japan sales every single time? It's the same with pretty much every game that isn't a pack-in, and with every console that does well in the west.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49695651]idk why is an animation of her ass that important[/QUOTE] Yeah I find that weird that, THAT is what's getting the internet up in arms. I'd be more outraged if it were something like Bethesda censoring the Fat Man for all future games just because some people feel bad for the Japanese getting nuked over half a decade ago. But no booty jiggles ain't the end of the world guys. :dog:

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;49697032] I'd be more outraged if it were something like Bethesda censoring the Fat Man for all future games just because some people feel bad for the Japanese getting nuked over half a decade ago. [/QUOTE] This happened, the Fat Man was renamed to Nuka Launcher in the JP localization, and the Power of the Atom quest (the one where you can nuke Megaton) was removed entirely

I don't really agree with OP's 'character design' argument against censorship because it's quite normal and even expected to change character designs in development to better suit the social climate the game will be marketed in. However, I think the real issue here is how censors vilify sexuality in all forms, whether it be a healthy depiction or not, as if sexuality in general is sinful. The US at large has a very immature, uneducated and downright harmfully negative view on sexuality, and this is the effect of that. Does censorship also uphold this norm? Most likely. But it's impossible to determine if a sexual depiction is healthy or abusive when the standard is "sex=bad".

[QUOTE=Raidyr;49696998]Japanese developers and publishers seem to be under the impression that the vocal minority of people who have a problem with things like these represent the average video game consumer in America which just isn't true. Not to even mention that again these people in all likelihood wouldn't buy those games anyway, while the opposite is true of the people who do actually care about things like this. I'd wager the vast majority of people who play SFV, or even "main Mika", would even notice. The average video gamer is just not looking at details like that. But the hardcore fanbase that is going to consistently buy your games entry after entry do. And I say this is a Japanese problem because American and European developers don't seem to have a problem showing off tits and ass in their games and getting away with it, as it were. It's bewildering. I genuinely believed the DoA X-treme not being ported story was just an elaborate marketing scheme until I found out that they sell most of their units in America anyway. I can't believe companies actually think Western consumers are like that.[/quote] wouldn't be surprised if sites like kotaku running articles as you know they do and the vocal minority have been a partial cause of this. kotaku is fairly notable, and although it seems many people really do not like kotaku this is probably not the easiest thing to find when you're looking at a market that you've only really started looking at recently. combined with backlash, such as on twitter, that looks more intimidating than it really is when you're just dipping your toes in and it doesn't surprise me that some publishers have overreacted. they probably also don't have as clear of view of the social situation and cliques as you do as they don't participate in it. it seems like it would be difficult to determine that those complaining would never buy their games anyways unless you've properly immersed yourself in our (internet) culture, and i am guessing a great deal of the people calling the shots in the decisions these Japanese game devs aren't the kind to get immersed in our culture, i don't expect them to either. i wouldn't expect it of western devs to know all about different japanese social ideologies and opinions on things right off the bat.

No censorship should be carried out by developers, whether it's gore or sexualisation then it should be done like the artist imagined it to be. There are extreme cases, like the Dead or Alive Extreme series, where sexualisation is the name of the game, but seeing as there's obviously a market for it then who cares don't buy the game if you don't want it. And in the cases of "boo it's degrading to women" then I'm sure there'd be an equal male-edition of the game if there was a market for it, so instead of crying then make the market. It truely pisses me off too how a game can feature massive slaughters, but because the blood and gore isn't red then suddenly it's an "all ages" type game. Who cares? It's still violence, stop limiting developers.

[QUOTE=Tools;49697177]No censorship should be carried out by developers, whether it's gore or sexualisation then it should be done like the artist imagined it to be. There are extreme cases, like the Dead or Alive Extreme series, where sexualisation is the name of the game, but seeing as there's obviously a market for it then who cares don't buy the game if you don't want it. And in the cases of "boo it's degrading to women" then I'm sure there'd be an equal male-edition of the game if there was a market for it, so instead of crying then make the market. It truely pisses me off too how a game can feature massive slaughters, but because the blood and gore isn't red then suddenly it's an "all ages" type game. Who cares? It's still violence, stop limiting developers.[/QUOTE] Well, there ARE equal male-editions of that kind of game, just search "Yaoi" on steam and you'll find plenty of examples ;).

[QUOTE=Flyingman356;49696061]"Something like "sexy" Ryu is a false equivalence because that's clearly not there to please a female audience. It's a male power fantasy, a man looking like that is what men fantasise about being rather than what women fantasise about fucking, that's the ideal male from a male perspective, not the ideal male from a female perspective. " -me in the same post you quoted reading is a good thing to do[/QUOTE] It is most certainly not what I fantasize aboug being, can you source that generalization? Not that generalizations are valid at all, but, if you're going to rely on it anyways, go ahead. Edit: Honestly most of your posts if you replaced "men" with "insert race" would be completely over the line. Generalizations don't suddenly become okay because you're targeting a gender and not a race.

I think if a studio decides to change their content based on what some whiny people on the internet say, it's their fault, and they're run by cowards. Unless it's a legitimate federal entity that is demanding you change your game's content, just buck the fuck up and deal with some bitchy tumblr blogs. Because guess what that outrage gets you: [I]sales.[/I]

[QUOTE=latin_geek;49697058]This happened, the Fat Man was renamed to Nuka Launcher in the JP localization, and the Power of the Atom quest (the one where you can nuke Megaton) was removed entirely[/QUOTE] That's ONLY FOR JAPAN though, I can understand, I'm talking about mass censorship of that kind of quest in places other than Japan.

uhhhhh so i think if a publisher removes something so inane like the butt slap but then adds this [thumb]http://i.imgur.com/lEwQJm0.jpg[/thumb] a better criticism is probably a publisher like capcom "censoring" the ass slap for no good given reason ("it's ESRB, guys") and then adding this alternate costume, because they're just drumming up and cashing in on the controversy that's so in on the internet now. better examples of weird censorship/localization is bravely default 2's removal of the native american costume for [ROULETTE SPIN FOR REASON TO BE OFFENDED] to replace it with a cowboy costume (???). in context like this it may be even MORE offensive, and a lot of work went into making a new costume just to replace one that was already made, which is a big fucking waste of time. if it's not a new model then it's a waste of content for removing the native american outfit from the game. americans are technically getting like .05% less content.

I hope you guys realize capcom did this because of the esrb's rating system dlc content, however, is not rated by the esrb, hence Laura's slutty slut costume capcom deliberately did this to avoid an M rating as the DOA series usually gets if you're too ass pained over 'self-censorship' of something that capcom couldn't technically allow in a T rated game, install the camera mod that restores it then

[QUOTE=TheJoey;49697707]americans are technically getting like .05% less content.[/QUOTE] "But they removed my imaginary titties and that's an absolute [I]travesty![/I]"

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;49697725]"But they removed my imaginary titties and that's an absolute [I]travesty![/I]"[/QUOTE] i dunno dude, people could argue all fucking day but when you boil it all down video games are just digital toys. so just shut it all down, because its all just "muh marios" who cares right? i like my entertainment the way it was meant to be created so that i can judge it with my own brain without the help of ESRB or nintendo of america or whoever else, thanks. i'm not upset over it, just a little frustrated that this has to be such a big fucking deal. i'm more upset over localizations adding internet memes from 2013 as flavor text. shit triggers me deeply. and the only way i can show any sort of lack of support for this bullshit is by just not buying games, like everyone else. then the industry can just blame lack of sales over [ROULETTE WHEEL OF REASONS]

[QUOTE=TheJoey;49697749]i dunno dude, people could argue all fucking day but when you boil it all down video games are just digital toys. so just shut it all down, because its all just "muh marios" who cares right? i like my entertainment the way it was meant to be created so that i can judge it with my own brain without the help of ESRB or nintendo of america or whoever else, thanks. i'm not upset over it, just a little frustrated that this has to be such a big fucking deal. i'm more upset over localizations adding internet memes from 2013 as flavor text. shit triggers me deeply. and the only way i can show any sort of lack of support for this bullshit is by just not buying games, like everyone else. then the industry can just blame lack of sales over [ROULETTE WHEEL OF REASONS][/QUOTE] Don't you mean the end all be all of crappy games sales? [i]PIRACY[/i]

Imagine how art would be like today if the ancient greeks were scared of sexuality. I don't remember anyone getting triggered by Greek statues. If someone get's offended by attractive portrayal of someone of the same sex than they obviously have some insecurity issues.

i think that, if not for the esrb system (which is a totally reasonable excuse for a loooot of reasons,) they were trying to just be respectful and a little word called "tasteful" to their audience, since they know that ass-slap would probably make a small but reasonable chunk of that audience feel uncomfortable for blatant sexualization without context (try to contextualize it all you want, it's not going to make much sense to me. apologies.) I know i felt a bit weird watching it. it was out of place imo. if they apply a double standard, like the post above me, that's when you start questioning them, but it could've had a number of reasons why they did it. in reality though, the real problem a lot of people have isn't the deletion of "muh ass slap" but because it was poorly removed and awkwardly replaced. of course, that's not really the problem of "censorship" as it is laziness. but just don't try to construe it into a thing of pandering to the feminist audience or whatever since that's obviously not what's at play here. it's most likely just the ESRB. censorship isn't censorship unless someone performs it on their work when they're horribly against it. we can't make assumptions with these things.

[QUOTE=latin_geek;49697026]Video-wise your quality jumps all over and looping the fucking ass-slap 30 times doesn't help your argument at all Actually taking the time to get first-hand footage is always a nice addition. The photos and Funny Cartoons are out of place in a serious discussion, and the entire "but it sells more in the west" point (your only point that isn't anecdotal evidence) is completely moot,[/QUOTE] Other japanese games selling well doesn't make the point moot at all. It shows that in both cases the game would have sold more units had they not taken it off and sexuality wouldn't have changed that. [editline]8th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Flyingman356;49696224]You can't determine with absolute 100% certainty but in most cases it's clear and evident. Would you honestly tell me you believe that the camera zooming in on a woman's ass is there for women to feel empowered?[/QUOTE] I could say the same thing for Sexy Ryu. It literally even says sexy in it. You are making such a double standard.

[QUOTE=leetnoobify;49697717]I hope you guys realize capcom did this because of the esrb's rating system dlc content, however, is not rated by the esrb, hence Laura's slutty slut costume capcom deliberately did this to avoid an M rating as the DOA series usually gets if you're too ass pained over 'self-censorship' of something that capcom couldn't technically allow in a T rated game, install the camera mod that restores it then[/QUOTE] There is no evidence of this being the case. In fact everything official from capcom has seemed to point to it being them scared of triggering fans. Besides, skull girls is more sexualized and is still T.

[QUOTE=Pascall;49695828]i feel like her character should be better developed if removing an ass-slap tarnishes it ? ? ???[/QUOTE] This is pretty much standard SJW BS. You believe a character can't be developed and at the same time sexualized and you can't believe a girl being sexual is apart of her development as a character. Sorry a wrestler might want to act exaggerated. It must be amazing living a life where fictional videogame characters make you feel uncomfortable.