ammo is an dated mechanic in multiplayer fps games and I'm glad to see more experimentation without it.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;51738935]Wall of text[/QUOTE]
That's why he brings up the point that you can REPLENISH ammunition. You can't replenish cool-downs.
Sure you can't predict everything that happens, but with a replenishable resource, you can make more decisions. "Do I retreat to get more ammo so I don't run out, or do I push anyways ammo be damned?" Also the game throws enough ammo at you to get what you need done, but not enough to where you can just spam or waste ammo outside of areas with ammo packs.
Compared to the abilities where as you described it "It's called waiting." Which is boring, and not really a tactic.
And while aiming does matter in overwatch, it's pretty easy to hit slow moving large targets. Thus it's less important. Not to mention unlimited ammo, so spamming is a completely viable strategy. (d.va being a big culprit)
Predicting enemies is a skill every hero shooter and a majority of fps games require to master. Overwatch does it pretty will with each hero being rigid in what they can do.
By "do much" I mean While one character can influence the tide of a match, they can't really carry their team to victory compared to tf2, where if you're good enough, you can deal massive damage and push by yourself.
Which I suppose goes against your last point that overwatch is a team game, and it very much is, to a fault.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;51738947]I would suggest watching this video at 1.25 speed because at least a third of run time is him phrasing the same thing slightly differently like a hundred times.
1.7k hrs in TF2 I can tell you being in a situation in which "resource management" IE your ammo pool, is actually something to be of big tactical concern is as about as rare as getting 2 seasoning packets in a ramen bag unless you're playing Engie, spy and [I]maybe[/I] Pyro if you're absolutely spamming your air blast. Otherwise you can get more ammo by just holding W, you don't even have to do that much if you have an engineer.
MEANWHILE...
Mad Milk has a cooldown, Sandvich has a cooldown, Jarate, Flying guillotine etc have cooldowns and I should not some of these are pretty recent additions to TF2; so even Valve themselves disagree I would say.
And if you don't count ammo (because it's a tactical non issue 99.99% of the time) the amount of TF2 heroes that lack resource management include;
Heavy, scout, soldier, demoman, sniper, Medic and Pyro. Seven out of nine classes![/QUOTE]
The item cooldowns don't prevent the classes from being less useful though. The sniper can still snipe, the scout can still effectively pick, and the heavy can still effectively defend. Once the Overwatch heroes use up all their abilities, they're pretty easy to take out.
Don't know what you're thinking but Heavy and Pyro are extremely reliant on ammo, and Demo to an extent as well Soldier also needs to be careful when spamming rockets.
[QUOTE=redBadger;51738324]Overwatch is decent fun with some friends but it's post launch support has been dismal at best.
Half a year and only 2 new maps and 2 new heros. Mostly lackluster holiday content with a vast majority (pretty much 99%) of cosmetics being holiday locked. So basically if you buy the game after this most recent event, you'll be stuck with all the cosmetics and content from the base game.
In the beginning TF2 updated at a very similar pace as Overwatch does now, but it's support skyrocketed after the first Goldrush update. Not to mention that TF2, unlike Overwatch, supported community servers. So if you got bored with the maps in the base game, there were TONS of custom maps to choose from.[/QUOTE]
I dont think its fair compare post launch content of tf2 with ow, tf2 has community contributions, if take community maps out of tf2 updates, there isnt alot of new maps per update.
Also tf2 has alot of abandoned content, useless weapons, gamemodes without new maps for years and features that they never finished.
Also ow updates seems to be more focused on the balanced of the game. Something that valves ahs been doing on tf2 once a year and very poorly
About the video, i dont agree with "resource focused" gameplay of tf2. Ammo is not common problem in tf2, for engineers and maybe spys sure. And tf2 has plenty of cooldowns on its gameplay, sure isnt like overwatch but it is there.
[QUOTE=General J;51739047]ammo is an dated mechanic in multiplayer fps games and I'm glad to see more experimentation without it.[/QUOTE]
how is it dated? if ammo is dated, then so are healthpacks. which is not true, healthpacks are making a comeback and it's a very much welcome return to form
I like Overwatch, I really do, but whenever I play it I always get a nag in the back of my head saying "You know, I really wish I was playing TF2 right now... But none of my friends really play it. Maybe it's just nostalgia though..."
This video really did a good job at putting into words exactly what I had a problem with in this game.
I stopped playing Overwatch because the playerbase is frustrating as fuck. Quick play is full of people who think it doesn't matter because it's quick play so they can do whatever the fuck they want and say "it's just quick play, lol" or I can play competitive and play with even more frustrating people who just want gold guns or take it way too seriously because they want their play time to mean something in outside world but I'm stuck with them for more games. I just want to hop on and play a game or two with a team that wants to win against another team that wants to win. I don't even want to play anymore because blizzard keeps nerfing characters to make the game more accessible to shit players. They nerfed torb's turret on console because players did not how to counter it.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;51739048]That's why he brings up the point that you can REPLENISH ammunition. You can't replenish cool-downs.[/QUOTE]
And you can't "magically" replenish ammo. He compares the utility of a character and their abilities directly to their usefulness. So let's look at the facts. If you run out of ammo in a tactical shooter, you have to disengage and go find more ammo. Huh. That sounds AWFULLY SIMILAR to some other mechanic...something that REMOVES the usefulness of what you can do...but what could it be? I just can't put my finger on it!
OH YEAH, it's ability cooldowns!
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;51739048]Sure you can't predict everything that happens, but with a replenishable resource, you can make more decisions. "Do I retreat to get more ammo so I don't run out, or do I push anyways ammo be damned?" Also the game throws enough ammo at you to get what you need done, but not enough to where you can just spam or waste ammo outside of areas with ammo packs.
Compared to the abilities where as you described it "It's called waiting." Which is boring, and not really a tactic.[/QUOTE]
The same applies with ability cooldowns. I think everybody can agree here that running out of ammo is an absolute non problem especially in TF2 where ammo is available in every fucking orifice. If it's not coming out of the payload it's coming out of a dispenser. In Overwatch, if you burn an ability it's because you fucked up. In TF2 if you push and manage to run out of ammo....it's because you...fucked up? I'm sorry, but I just fail to see how somehow having access to a (nearly limitless and always respawning resource) somehow equates to "being able to do more" when in both situations they are fundamentally the exact same thing. If you run out of ammo or get trapped mid-reload and can't dish out any damage, you die. If you burn a useful ability in OW and get stuck in a bad spot with no return, you die. If you run out of ammo, you have to leave the fight to find more. If you use an ability in OW, you can't use it again until it resets, and the time it takes is equally comparable to waiting for an ammo pack respawn unless you're sitting right on top of it.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;51739048]And while aiming does matter in overwatch, it's pretty easy to hit slow moving large targets. Thus it's less important. Not to mention unlimited ammo, so spamming is a completely viable strategy. (d.va being a big culprit)[/QUOTE]
And you're right, but considering D.va is only useful at killing things in her face, it's moot. Slow moving targets are easy to hit but considering 90% of "big boy" games aren't filled with everybody playing Roadhog, D.va, and Winston, the three largest and easiest to hit characters in the entire roster, the point is also moot.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;51739048]By "do much" I mean While one character can influence the tide of a match, they can't really carry their team to victory compared to tf2, where if you're good enough, you can deal massive damage and push by yourself.[/QUOTE]
And it shouldn't be like that. One player shouldn't be able to carry their team to victory. With how OW works it's hard to tell if you're being a carry or deadweight, but the reality is it's a very team-focused game and if you watch any high-level competitive gameplay it punishes lone-wolf playstyles entirely. Going out on your own, especially against a team that is actually communicating, will always cause you to die and fast.
EDIT
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;51739048]The item cooldowns don't prevent the classes from being less useful though. The sniper can still snipe, the scout can still effectively pick, and the heavy can still effectively defend. Once the Overwatch heroes use up all their abilities, they're pretty easy to take out. Don't know what you're thinking but Heavy and Pyro are extremely reliant on ammo, and Demo to an extent as well Soldier also needs to be careful when spamming rockets.[/QUOTE]
And the same thing can be said about Overwatch. Widow can still snipe when she doesn't have her mine or grapple. Tracer can still pick as well, it just depends on how well you manage your blinks which is really no different than how well you maneuver as Scout. And Reinhardt, Zarya, and Roadhog can still effectively defend when their abilities are on cooldown. Reinhardt can still use his shield and can also still swing his hammer. Zarya can use the charge she gets from morons shooting her bubble to dish out even MORE damage, and Roadhog can still be a beefy fuck and survive basically everything. As an example of team-focused gameplay, if you're playing Reinhardt and your shield breaks but there's also a Mei on your team, she can throw up an ice wall and that is effectively the same thing as a big shield wall. It protects the rest of the team and allows the shield to recharge. What of TF2 and these kinds of small, but big effect team tactics?
This is a great video and I agree with most of the points. I don't really agree with his argument about TF2's respawn timer vs. Overwatch's, though.
A shorter respawn timer does mean you regain control of your character faster, but that isn't necessarily better. The reason the timer exists is to regulate the flow of players so that there isn't a nonstop river of enemies coming out to attack or defend their objective (which imbalances the gameplay depending on what stage the objective is at in most maps). TF2 modifies the respawn timer length on the fly according to how far attackers have pushed through the map, which I think is a great system. As he said, Overwatch deals with this by simply making mobility something only certain classes have and also regulated by cooldown timers.
But when you're strolling back to the battle in Overwatch, you're not really doing anything. You're just moving back to the battle, and you have no idea what's going on over there until you get there. In TF2, you can use the spectator cameras to more effectively keep up on what's happening in the battle before you're thrown back in. This also ties into his point about TF2's many loadouts making it difficult to know what an enemy's capabilities are at a glance, because you can do some reconnaissance while you're dead to see what loadouts enemies are using. It's not something casual or new players think about, but it's something that's very important and useful to experienced players, which only helps to raise TF2's skill ceiling further.
In my opinion, most people who complain about TF2's long respawn timers are people who just want to be in control and in the action as much as possible, balance and strategy be damned. Sure, one can say that if you aren't currently in control of your character, then you're not really playing a video game anymore. But it's not like TF2 makes you stare at a blank screen while you're dead. And really, what difference is there between being in spectator mode for sixteen seconds and slowly strolling back to the objective for sixteen seconds? In one case you're looking at action and in the other you're looking at scenery.
Overwatch's short respawn timers means taking the final point of anything is ridiculous. I can't find the video anymore but there was a clip of a payload (I don't know what this is called in Overwatch terminology) match where the attacking team didn't die at all for like 10 minutes straight but it didn't matter because defense could just keep pouring out of spawn to block the advancement.
I've never seen anyone ever take the final point of Hanamura.
Also, as a side note, I haven't gotten play of the game once. I once got a quad kill as Torbjorn while ulted, and play of the game was a McCree shooting two people to death. I can get a team wipe as Mei but PotG will be a Lucio pushing a person off the cliff. I've pretty much given up on ever getting play of the game, and on top of that it's a really silly feature that puts more emphasis on getting glory kills individually than playing with the team; if you play support characters a lot like me you'll never get recognized for that, and I think that's a raw deal.
He is really overstating the value of ammo and over-criticizing cooldowns. I'd almost agree with him on it except that most of the game's cooldowns are only around 10 seconds, and can be used multiple times per-engagement. The result of that is similar to resource management without having to leave your team behind once it's spent. When he talks about ultimate abilities near the end though, I think he's right on point.
Overwatch is much more a 6vs6 rock paper scissors than an individual performance game. If he's only been playing solo queue it's not surprising that he didn't really grasp the depth of it.
In my opinion what made TF2 so different was not only how much your skill counts in a fight, but also the difference in team skill composition. In TF2, at least before matchmaking, you used to have the top 15% or so of players in the teams significantly more skillful than the rest, and it was basically them trying to keep each other down while creating an opening for the low-tiers to capture the objective.
Pretty much like hero units and minions in a moba game, but with real players
Though I guess that's changed with the introduction of matchmaking to TF2
[QUOTE=Keychain;51739082]how is it dated? if ammo is dated, then so are healthpacks. which is not true, healthpacks are making a comeback and it's a very much welcome return to form[/QUOTE]
Titanfall 2 mostly has infinite ammo.
It's a great evolution for that game.
[editline]28th January 2017[/editline]
Just as an example of a game that isn't overwatch but also relies on cooldowns over ammo and works amazingly well for it.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/DDILuiG.png[/t]
Something tells me he didn't mean to let this bit of gameplay slip through.
But more on topic, from friends who have played Overwatch I've noticed them call out characters who are either completely useless, or completely overpowered, I'm not sure if it's just them being salty, but it's usually the same character names. As for TF2, I've not got that many hours in it, but none of the characters really feel useless or overpowered, they're only useless if you're useless, and they're only overpowered if you're really good.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51739816]Titanfall 2 mostly has infinite ammo.
It's a great evolution for that game.
[editline]28th January 2017[/editline]
Just as an example of a game that isn't overwatch but also relies on cooldowns over ammo and works amazingly well for it.[/QUOTE]
It works for Titanfall 2 because TitFall2 just has this formula that supports it. You're always on the move, avoiding enemy fire and taking objectives. If you had to stop and regain ammo it'd be a serious kill on the pacing of the game, and would make you much more vulnerable. It was definitely a good choice.
But not all games would benefit from it, though. Taking ammo management out of Battlefield wouldn't benefit the game in any way, and would remove a lot of the strategy. BF's a game where you advance, open fire, hunker down to refuel your sources, and then head out again. While TitFall 2 is pretty much nonstop action the whole game.
I prefer TF2, I need cloaking + backstab and uber charge to guarantee a win. Overwatch gives me a migraine because you move so slowly and there's too much colour going on, it feels like you have no control.
I'll stick to TF2 thanks.
[QUOTE=LuckyLuke;51739864]
But more on topic, from friends who have played Overwatch I've noticed them call out characters who are either completely useless, or completely overpowered, I'm not sure if it's just them being salty, but it's usually the same character names. As for TF2, I've not got that many hours in it, but none of the characters really feel useless or overpowered, they're only useless if you're useless, and they're only overpowered if you're really good.[/QUOTE]
I love the game but Overwatch's balance is some of the worst I've ever seen. You've got 23 heroes, maybe 10 of them are viable?
If you're playing competitive you will mostly see the exact same team comps every time.
6 man team, you'll almost certainly see Roadhog, Soldier 76, Reinhardt, Ana, maybe Lucio, and the last one will be whatever the dude prefers, either a third tank or one of those characters that people pick because "I'll totally for real switch if I suck honest" like Genji or Hanzo
Very rarely will this team composition change, as tanks are extremely powerful right now thanks to the healer Ana they added, who can heal them ludicrously fast. Roadhog in particular gains the ability to use a hook and pull enemies right in front of his face every 6 seconds, and his shotgun is currently powerful enough to one shot most of the roster. The only people that don't immediately die are tanks, and the best recourse tanks have is to run away severely damaged. This is something that Roadhog players who don't want to admit to themselves that he is ludicrously OP will insist is fair, and actively fight against alterations to his hook. Oh also he can heal a huge portion of his already huge healthbar, meaning he can tank everything from gunfire to entire fucking ultimates with barely a care in the world.
I've heard people bemoan a lack of new content, and while I can agree with that on a cosmetics, maps, and holiday front, I think they actively need to [I]avoid[/I] adding new characters. They added Ana and it changed (and ruined) a [I]lot.[/I] The game's balance is a complete wreck right now, and until y'know, more than less than half the roster is viable, they need to be focusing on fixing the fucking game as it is.
I prefer the movement of TF2, seems much more fluid and fast
Also there's no airstrafing in Overwatch which really throws me off
Biggest problem with Overwatch when compared to TF2 is that it has no community other than forums, really. Yeah sure there's general chat but I hardly see anyone talk in that anymore.
Second biggest problem is the design of "Heroes" vs "Classes" in both. You can switch them around and put them as definitions in Overwatch or use TF2's real names but they're still the same despite the name change.
In TF2 every character excelled where they're supposed to excel while allowing for them to go outside their preferred zone and still be competent at it regardless of what they were up against, as long as their skill, coordination and situational awareness were key.
In Overwatch you have characters that are designed for niches and end up countering one another. The biggest problem is that having multiple characters with multiple niches is that they're either good or useless when it comes to. And with the low player count (6v6) trying to play it as competitive it ends up playing a game of rock paper scissors than actually playing your class/hero to their actual effectiveness.
Widowmaker is useless despite her rifle in close range.
Mei has more sniping potential than McCree with a revolver.
Sombra's weapon spread is fucking hilarious.
Ana has too much utility.
Etc etc.
When it comes down to balancing concerns what ends up happening is that Blizzard doesn't know how to balance and it's only worsened by how much characters they have to go around to actually "fix" it. Breaking other characters and causing another car crash onto the trainwreck; Another domino that has to be fixed.
I'll explain in better detail, I really need to hit the sack.
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51740095]people should really stop comparing the two, there's a clear winner in almost every department and its not tf2.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]https://facepunch.com/image.php?u=505838&dateline=1478373473[/IMG]
hmmm
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51740095]people should really stop comparing the two, there's a clear winner in almost every department and its not tf2.[/QUOTE]
TF2's glory days might be over but it's still like comparing the Roman empire to current day Uganda. Overwatch was promising at first but all the maps are shit, no way to make custom maps, and they aren't releasing new maps nearly quick enough. I'd have taken 4 new maps over 2 new characters any day.
I find overwatch plays like a formulaic coin toss. It's just 50/50 and most of the time you're just there for the ride. Feels like a waste of time when I lose in a really bad team.
I feel like there's too much focus on ammo being the only resource at play, If you consider rocket jumping then you're using your health, magazine (and by extension, your potential damage dealt when you arrive), as well as your overall ammo pool to a lesser extent to achieve the move, all of which could be considered a resource to be used in other ways, depending on the scenario. Health is probably one of the most important resources when it comes to mobility in tf2 (think being able to drop from height, surf damage, explosive jumps, atomizer ect)
With that said, I think there's still benefits to cooldowns. OW is a very focused and streamlined game compared to TF2, and cooldown abilities work well there. If anything I would have preferred some abilities to have shorter cooldows with perhaps a trade off in effectiveness or a cost in health, seeing as that's a resource OW already has, but never uses outside of soaking damage.
I think there are a lot more characters that aren't over-reliant on their cooldowns that he gives the game credit for.
one should consider that tf2 is such a great game that not even the piss poor, half assed balance decisions valve has done over the years, it still stands as a great game and serves as a blanket for others to base their own development on it.
[QUOTE=cyanidem;51740159]I find overwatch plays like a formulaic coin toss. It's just 50/50 and most of the time you're just there for the ride. Feels like a waste of time when I lose in a really bad team.[/QUOTE]
Just a reminder that the Evermore dude on the KR ladder is currently at 5000 SR with a W/L/T at 49/2/3. If you are roughly winning 50% of the time you probably belong to that skill bracket.
[QUOTE=GentlemanLexi;51740129][IMG]https://facepunch.com/image.php?u=505838&dateline=1478373473[/IMG]
hmmm[/QUOTE]
To be honest, Facepunch is heavily Valve centric so TF2 is always going to be better to people around here.
I personally think OW has been much more on point lately than TF2 and I'm looking forward to OW's future.
One thing that makes it difficult for me to work up any enthusiasm for wanting to play Overwatch is that I don't like any of the characters. The art style is kind of boring and the most positive thing I can say about some of the designs is that they're just okay, and the characters mostly seem to have the bare minimum of personality to pass.
Which contrasts with TF2 where I liked everybody.
[QUOTE=Cpt. Cakes;51740041]I prefer the movement of TF2, seems much more fluid and fast
Also there's no airstrafing in Overwatch which really throws me off[/QUOTE]
don't all characters in overwatch move at the same speed?
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51739188]Overwatch's short respawn timers means taking the final point of anything is ridiculous. I can't find the video anymore but there was a clip of a payload (I don't know what this is called in Overwatch terminology) match where the attacking team didn't die at all for like 10 minutes straight but it didn't matter because defense could just keep pouring out of spawn to block the advancement.
I've never seen anyone ever take the final point of Hanamura.
Also, as a side note, I haven't gotten play of the game once. I once got a quad kill as Torbjorn while ulted, and play of the game was a McCree shooting two people to death. I can get a team wipe as Mei but PotG will be a Lucio pushing a person off the cliff. I've pretty much given up on ever getting play of the game, and on top of that it's a really silly feature that puts more emphasis on getting glory kills individually than playing with the team; if you play support characters a lot like me you'll never get recognized for that, and I think that's a raw deal.[/QUOTE]
Funny you mention that, remember before Hero stacking was removed?
Do you want to know what the "last point" meta was before that?
[video=youtube;MZE0QzjB7Ig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZE0QzjB7Ig[/video]
theres a reason 2cp was banned in every comp league.
After playing comp tf2 for so long I gother mega bored after the novelty of a new game wore off. Even with OW comp mode the game still just feels to casual even into the mechanics with instant gratification "rewards" (and how much the games relies on them ton really do anything, feels even worse than building an uber) with ults and infinite ammo.
People talking about never running out of ammo must have played mostly casual TF2 because playing soldier I always had to look for ammo packs if I wanted to keep fighting without needed to go into risky places to grab guns
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