SWAT on a drug raid, shot and killed man with a golf club.
239 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Janizaurd;27045932]I would still want to check up to be sure it's the police, before I throw myself on the floor, and give myself up. I wouldn't jump out, sure, though the guy probably didn't think about it too much, because he wasn't trained to do that. Also, innocent until proven guilty, plus being alive is [i]always[/i] better than dying .[/QUOTE]
He wasn't trained to do what?
[QUOTE=Janizaurd;27045932]I would still want to check up to be sure it's the police, before I throw myself on the floor, and give myself up. I wouldn't jump out, sure, though the guy probably didn't think about it too much, because he wasn't trained to do that. Also, innocent until proven guilty, plus being alive is [i]always[/i] better than dying .[/QUOTE]
So you're saying that because the guy was a dumbass it's the SWAT teams fault?
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;27046001]So you're saying that because the guy was a dumbass it's the SWAT teams fault?[/QUOTE]
I blame the parents.
[QUOTE=Hullu V3;27045987]He wasn't trained to do what?[/QUOTE]
Golf.
It's reasonable to shoot someone attacking you with a golf club.
For a regular person, yes. For a professional SWAT team with bulletproof, stab-resistant and trauma-resistant body armor and access to tasers, pepper spray, pepper ball rounds, bean bag rounds, rubber/wooden bullets, etc, etc, etc... it's not reasonable to escalate that quickly.
lol if armed guys with what appeared to be SWAT garb entered my house and yelled for me to get on the group I'd comply
I wouldn't go "Hey hold on, are you guys legit? What is your serial number?"
They were shouting "Police! Search warrant!" outside the house where it would be muffled and hard to hear, and he had probably just woken up. You could tell he was taking the situation in, and wasn't going to charge at them. He posed no threat, and they acted with too much zeal.
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046009]It's reasonable to shoot someone attacking you with a golf club.
For a regular person, yes. For a professional SWAT team with bulletproof, stab-resistant and trauma-resistant body armor and access to tasers, pepper spray, pepper ball rounds, bean bag rounds, rubber/wooden bullets, etc, etc, etc... it's not reasonable to escalate that quickly.[/QUOTE]
Man, you should join SWAT since apparently you'd be perfect at it!
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;27046022]Man, you should join SWAT since apparently you'd be perfect at it![/QUOTE]
Being a witty twat will get you nowhere.
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046009]It's reasonable to shoot someone attacking you with a golf club.
For a regular person, yes. For a professional SWAT team with bulletproof, stab-resistant and trauma-resistant body armor and access to tasers, pepper spray, pepper ball rounds, bean bag rounds, rubber/wooden bullets, etc, etc, etc... it's not reasonable to escalate that quickly.[/QUOTE]
Bullet proof vests are not infallible. He appeared to quick for them to register whether it was a gun or not, only that he was weilding a weapon.
Again, [I]these are people, Robocop does not exist and police don't have access to bullet time.[/I]
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046009]It's reasonable to shoot someone attacking you with a golf club.
For a regular person, yes. For a professional SWAT team with bulletproof, stab-resistant and trauma-resistant body armor and access to tasers, pepper spray, pepper ball rounds, bean bag rounds, rubber/wooden bullets, etc, etc, etc... it's not reasonable to escalate that quickly.[/QUOTE]
Write feedback to your friendly neighbourhood SWAT team and tell from this point on to go into a house Akimbo style. Tazer in the other hand and a glock in the other.
[QUOTE=Hullu V3;27045987]He wasn't trained to do what?[/QUOTE]
Think about the situation he's in, and react acordingly.
[QUOTE=Xolo;27046014]They were shouting "Police! Search warrant!" outside the house where it would be muffled and hard to hear, and he had probably just woken up. You could tell he was taking the situation in, and wasn't going to charge at them. He posed no threat, and they acted with too much zeal.[/QUOTE]
If someone shouts at the top of their lungs outside my house right near the front door I hear it pretty clearly and my house is pretty big. His house looked pretty damn small so I can't accept "he didn't hear them clearly" as a reason. As for just waking up, I already explained why that is very unlikely.
[editline]29th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046030]Being a witty twat will get you nowhere.[/QUOTE]
It's worked so far, and it's better than having the unrealistic views that you do.
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;27046001]So you're saying that because the guy was a dumbass it's the SWAT teams fault?[/QUOTE]
Yes, because they didn't have to kill him.
My friend was accepted into the local Police force, and he has been telling me that all the Police across the US is now being trained that EVERYONE is enemies, no matter who they are. Even if they are a '92 year old woman with a plate of fresh baked cookies in her hands.'
Exact quote from 'higher rank.'
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27046031]Bullet proof vests are not infallible. He appeared to quick for them to register whether it was a gun or not, only that he was weilding a weapon.
Again, [I]these are people, Robocop does not exist and police don't have access to bullet time.[/I][/QUOTE]
Of course they aren't fucking superhuman.They're paid to be above that type of behavior. We're supposed to be holding them to much higher standards than we would typical civilians.
[QUOTE=Janizaurd;27046068]Yes, becuase they didn't have to kill him.[/QUOTE]
Yes, they could have instead left themselves open to gunfire for a few seconds while they debated whether or not they were holding the correct equipment to deal with the situation.
[QUOTE=Rock Ironrod;27045985][/QUOTE]
But they're expected to atleast act better under stress than a random guy in his house.
[QUOTE=Janizaurd;27046057]Think about the situation you're in, and react acordingly.[/QUOTE]
Then he is an idiot. Natural Selection.
"Police are storming my house... WAT DO!1!?!?!1"
Next controversial argument!
He was an illegal immigrant and couldn't recognize the language.
[editline]29th December 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=KamenMoore;27046080]My friend was accepted into the local Police force, and he has been telling me that all the Police across the US is now being trained that EVERYONE is enemies, no matter who they are. Even if they are a '92 year old woman with a plate of fresh baked cookies in her hands.'
Exact quote from 'higher rank.'[/QUOTE]
I call bullshit. Go tell the papers and prove me otherwise.
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046085]Of course they aren't fucking superhuman.They're paid to be above that type of behavior. We're supposed to be holding them to much higher standards than we would typical civilians tho.[/QUOTE]
You admit that they aren't superhuman yet you demand superhuman things from them...
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. What behaviour are you fucking talking about? Assess a threat in a second and making a decision whether it be right or wrong? I'm sure you've made all the right decisions in your life.
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046085]Of course they aren't fucking superhuman.They're paid to be above that type of behavior. We're supposed to be holding them to much higher standards than we would typical civilians tho.[/QUOTE]
There's a difference between "higher standards" and expecting them to bypass human limits. They are paid to take down criminals, they are not paid to die. They are trained to do everything in their power to not die. That includes shooting people that are armed as soon as you see them, because one of these people will have a gun, and will kill you if you giving a few seconds leeway so you can ascertain the situation.
[QUOTE=KamenMoore;27046080]My friend was accepted into the local Police force, and he has been telling me that all the Police across the US is now being trained that EVERYONE is enemies, no matter who they are. Even if they are a '92 year old woman with a plate of fresh baked cookies in her hands.'
Exact quote from 'higher rank.'[/QUOTE]
Not enemy, potential enemy.
They have to be careful and keep an eye out. The difference between a civilian and a killer isn't always easy to see until they pull a weapon on you.
[editline]29th December 2010[/editline]
Plus, SWAT was entering a suspect's house to arrest him. As far as they're concerned, they were going into a hostile zone and didn't know what to expect.
They have been entrusted with part of the state's monopoly on violence. They must be held to a higher standard. These guys are supposed to be elite. They should be able to identify the threat and react appropriately in a moments notice.
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046181]They have been entrusted with part of the state's monopoly on violence. They must be held to a higher standard. These guys are supposed to be elite. They should be able to identify the threat and react appropriately in a moments notice.[/QUOTE]
That's the ideal. The ideal is impossible.
[QUOTE=En-Guage V2;27045318]A man's life has been lost, for something that could have been resolved by two of the swat team
That being said, if I was in the situation I probably would've tagged him too. Rather you than me. It could've been anything, and I would place my life above that guy.
They should've confirmed the weapon before firing, and obviously even if they did fire they should've shot to wound, not kill
However the rational look on things is effective in past tense, I do not blame those men for firing but I acknowledge that the situation could have been handled better
And who the fuck runs at armed SWAT dudes with a fucking golf club?[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure when police shoot, they are always shooting to kill, they aren't trained to simply shoot someone in the leg; that's why they have non-lethal methods, which they probably should have exercised in this video.
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046181]They have been entrusted with part of the state's monopoly on violence. They must be held to a higher standard. These guys are supposed to be elite. They should be able to identify the threat and react appropriately in a moments notice.[/QUOTE]
Many people have been entrusted with many different things.
The president is entrusted to ensure the well being of a nation. Look at America. President is doing the best he can and he has a shitload of people doing things for him, but the mission is impossible none the less.
[QUOTE=Monty Pie-thon;27046181]They have been entrusted with part of the state's monopoly on violence. They must be held to a higher standard. These guys are supposed to be elite. They should be able to identify the threat and react appropriately in a moments notice.[/QUOTE]
You expect the impossible.
No, it isn't impossible. The man didn't attack the SWAT officers, he was standing in a menacing pose, but clearly wasn't given a chance to process that the men who broke in were cops before he was shot (multiple times). The officer should have aimed at him and yelled for him to drop the golf club. If the homeowner ran at him (even if it was still a case of mistaken identity) then the shooting would seem much more reasonable.
[QUOTE=ssansam;27046211]Pretty sure when police shoot, they are always shooting to kill, they aren't trained to simply shoot someone in the leg; that's why they have non-lethal methods, which they probably should have exercised in this video.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure there are occasions when they shoot to wound, shooting to kill 100% of the time is stupid
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