[QUOTE=Kidd;44487647]Why was WALL-E in that list?[/QUOTE]
To make her list bigger
[QUOTE=Glitchman;44487600]The thing is society has to change before the movies can, or else you'll have trouble getting the audience to connect with the movies. Most events in real life have "male leads". That's just the way things are. Not saying it should be that way, but for movies to start to pass this test more often that needs to change.
Also, Pretty sure even though since this test was formed in the mid 80's (I was born in 87), it's only really picked up steam in 2013, around the same time that radical feminism started to skew facts and rely on victimization. (this is also reflected in the online community, as the radical feminists are more brought into the spotlight. See Facepunch and Thunderfoot as examples)
Feminism should be based on a strong, positive, forward movement that focuses on gender issues as a whole, not just with women. Males are pressured to act a certain way which also inflicts the injustices on women. Feminism involves a lot more than just women, and ESPECIALLY more than just how many girls talk to each other in film.[/QUOTE]
1. No shit thanks that's the point
2. That's wrong, the bechdel test has been prominent since its conception in 85. It hasn't "picked up steam", you've just been ignorant of its existence.
3. And it is, but you wouldn't know it because your entire conception of feminism is a bandwagon formed over one woman's internet project about your hobby and the resulting fallout.
[QUOTE]2. That's wrong, the bechdel test has been prominent since its conception in 85. It hasn't "picked up steam", you've just been ignorant of its existence.[/QUOTE]
Just because I didn't know something existed before doesn't mean I can't have opinions on it after some research. Also, of course it picked up steam. Everything does. Things just don't start out being known by everyone. Google trends can easily show this, regardless of the fact that more and more people use the internet each day.
[quote]3. And it is, but you wouldn't know it because your entire conception of feminism is a bandwagon formed over one woman's internet project about your hobby and the resulting fallout.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for telling me that my thoughts are all based on bandwagoning and a project on my hobby, I didn't realize that my ideas were all null and void because other people seem to agree with me, as well as the fact that the project she did passed off blatant lies as scientific fact. That is why I used that particular example.
[QUOTE=Glitchman;44487740]Just because I didn't know something existed before doesn't mean I can't have opinions on it after some research
Thanks for telling me that my thoughts are all based on bandwagoning and a project on my hobby, I didn't realize that my ideas were all null and void because other people seem to agree with me, as well as the fact that the project she did passed off blatant lies as scientific fact. That is why I used that particular example.[/QUOTE]
It does mean that you don't just get to say that "Yea, well it wasn't important until now because the [I]radical feminists[/I] weren't a thing until they came into competition with the internet." Because that's false.
Your ideas are uninformed and you obviously aren't getting all sides of the picture here.
And I'm wondering what you are claiming she's passed as scientific fact that is a lie.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];44487788']It does mean that you don't just get to say that "Yea, well it wasn't important until now because the [I]radical feminists[/I] weren't a thing until they came into competition with the internet." Because that's false.
Your ideas are uninformed and you obviously aren't getting all sides of the picture here.
And I'm wondering what you are claiming she's passed as scientific fact that is a lie.[/QUOTE]
It's as important now as it ever was, but now people (such as this woman) are spreading information that is harmful to feminism itself! People not getting all the sides of the picture is an actual problem. Think about all the people who dismiss feminism because of those crazy demonstrators, or this woman who spits on their precious video games, ect.
And I'm talking about how she said that male and female have the same physical strength... which just isn't true, and she cited a non-scientific source based on radical feminist ideas.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism[/url]
However, you are right saying I only have a limited perspective on this. If she has some videos or articles that contain information that doesn't seem biased or incredibly one-sided, show me!
For me this issue isn't about feminism, it's about people who dismiss basic facts to get their points or beliefs across. Could be anything really, from religion, to politics, ect. That why I use the word "radical"
[QUOTE=Glitchman;44487833]It's as important now as it ever was, but now people (such as this woman) are spreading information that is harmful to feminism itself! People not getting all the sides of the picture is an actual problem. Think about all the people who dismiss feminism because of those crazy demonstrators, or this woman who spits on their precious video games, ect.
And I'm talking about how she said that male and female have the same physical strength... which just isn't true, and she cited a non-scientific source based on radical feminist ideas.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_dimorphism[/url][/QUOTE]
Men and women [I]can[/I] have the same physical strength, though. There's nothing inherently wrong about that statement- while it's easier because of natural differences for men to gain more muscle mass than women, women are capable of achieving the same or better physical strength in some cases. This isn't a debate about that though. I don't know the exact quote you're referring to so she may be incorrect.
I'm confused as to how she's spreading information that's harmful to feminism itself. She's relatively moderate.
[editline]8th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glitchman;44487833]
However, you are right saying I only have a limited perspective on this. If she has some videos or articles that contain information that doesn't seem biased to me, show me!
For me this issue isn't about feminism, it's about people who dismiss basic facts to get their points or beliefs across. Could be anything really, from religion, to politics, ect. That why I use the word "radical"[/QUOTE]
Not biased? What would you define as not biased?
And that's an incorrect use of the word "radical". Radical doesn't mean extremist, it means to consider things at an underlying, not a surface, position- radical feminism is seeking to abolish patriarchy, or a systemic tendency toward promoting or advantaging men. Non-radical feminism is feminism that would only seek to promote women, say in the workplace or with rights, without interfering with issues like societal preference towards men.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];44487874']
I'm confused as to how she's spreading information that's harmful to feminism itself. She's relatively moderate.[/QUOTE]
Really, it's about attacking media before attacking society.
Movies, games, and all that attract audiences through real-life experience. As I said, since women HAVE taken a back seat a ton throughout history, and even today, more people are going to connect with a traditional boy saves girl ect ect. Not saying this is what we SHOULD do, but as a society we have to change before the movies and games can. But skipping this step you cause feminism to seem like it's "attacking" things people like.
In a way I think we both feel the same about this issue, I just don't think the way this woman handling it is right
[QUOTE=Glitchman;44487908]Really, it's about attacking media before attacking society.
Movies, games, and all that attract audiences through real-life experience. As I said, since women HAVE taken a back seat a ton throughout history, and even today, more people are going to connect with a traditional boy saves girl ect ect. Not saying this is what we SHOULD do, but as a society we have to change before the movies and games can. But skipping this step you cause feminism to seem like it's "attacking" things people like.
In a way I think we both feel the same about this issue, I just don't think the way this woman handling it is right[/QUOTE]
Except that people don't become aware of the biases without showing them in media. Mass media is an expression of our societal leanings and culture, if we don't explain or show how this is affecting people, the expression of patriarchy or misogyny or whatnot, then how are we ever to know? What harm is there in criticizing psychopathic behavior in order to prove or demonstrate a mental issue?
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];44487965']Except that people don't become aware of the biases without showing them in media. Mass media is an expression of our societal leanings and culture, if we don't explain or show how this is affecting people, the expression of patriarchy or misogyny or whatnot, then how are we ever to know? What harm is there in criticizing psychopathic behavior in order to prove or demonstrate a mental issue?[/QUOTE]
Because it's making people feel bad who aren't even contributing to the issue.
"Oh, you liked that movie? well you're racist, or sexist, or whatever"
It's negative reinforcement. I am far more moved by a feminist bringing actual real world examples to the table, rather than the reflections in the media. "OMG, two girls didn't talk in the movie? looks how that makes women take a backseat in everyday life!"
But when I hear about how women are working more and hours and for less, are dealing with being raped/killed in other countries or at home, or when a girl can't get job that she wants because men think she is more emotionally unstable. Sure, movies feed the reflections of these problems back into us, But I HIGHLY doubt some movies like WALL-E or UP, or even Braveheart are going to cause people to think that women aren't as good as men. At least not as much as actual travesties happening out there. I think it's just a waste of resources to focus on those things. Other media, like WWE wrestling, is a bit more over the top in terms of sexism. But why can't she start a crowd fund and do a report on how women are treated in real life, and why didn't she do that first? I guess this is all just my opinion, so if you disagree that's fine.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];44487520']The point is that we naturally portray men as complex central roles because we naturally understand men to be complex and central to our lives. The fact that the number of complex female characters is so low is an indicator of the way we as a society view women. When we have female characters most of the time its because they exist only as an aside, to promote, or to catalyze the main male character and the story about the main male character. This isn't about "movies oppressing women" and you damn well don't know what this is about as you've made obvious. If you think this is gaming journalism's problem, or you think this is just some people trying really really hard to feel oppressed, then you're delusional. This is a continuation of a struggle, a philosophy, and a considering of a problem that's been going on uninterrupted for a long time, it's just now been brought to your attention. I'm glad that you as a white male in a rich nation feel as though you can determine when the society that benefits you is and isn't oppressing or exploiting women. We of course need a man to speak for women on this issue.[/QUOTE]
There is no problem.
The only people I have met that have such a stereotypical view on women are either teenagers or minimum-wage-class citizens. No one who has some amount of self-respect goes by "Male leads the way" if only because it's pretty damn stupid and an ancient way of thinking.
I don't know with which kind of people these guys usually spend their free time with but they are sure as hell really fucking shallow and stupid if that's the way they act. On the other hand that's entirely their own fault. Meet different people if the ones you spend time with don't suit you.
The "struggle" is made up. The only people who "opress" women are retards which they shouldn't spend any time with anyway. Goddamnit this isn't so hard just apply common sense. Just don't be a dick. Or would you like to spend time with an obvious Racist?
I am not talking for anybody this is my opinion, what else should it be?
There are no problems, people are blowing trivial things way out of proportion. They just need something to complain about.
as one great philosopher once said
"This is the fifteen thousand, four hundred, and ninety eighth time we've had this discussion"
[QUOTE=The Combine;44488043]There is no problem.
The only people I have met that have such a stereotypical view on women are either teenagers or minimum-wage-class citizens. No one who has some amount of self-respect goes by "Male leads the way" if only because it's pretty damn stupid and an ancient way of thinking.
I don't know with which kind of people these guys usually spend their free time with but they are sure as hell really fucking shallow and stupid if that's the way they act. On the other hand that's entirely their own fault. Meet different people if the ones you spend time with don't suit you.
The "struggle" is made up. The only people who "opress" women are retards which they shouldn't spend any time with anyway. Goddamnit this isn't so hard just apply common sense. Just don't be a dick. Or would you like to spend time with an obvious Racist?
I am not talking for anybody this is my opinion, what else should it be?
There are no problems, people are blowing trivial things way out of proportion. They just need something to complain about.[/QUOTE]
Nice classism. Not only are you opposing a gender equality philosophy, you're justifying it because only the poor and the young apparently think down on women.
Listen, you're missing the point. On a person to person level there isn't much sexism for most people, because we understand at a personal level that this is a person. The problem comes when, as a society, we portray women as a class as being secondary to or existing only to support men, something which rarely is expressed through personal connections but is expressed on the macro. This is the mentality that promotes the gender wage gap, the glass ceiling, and inaccomodation towards women in public life. We aren't talking about the private, which surely is often a problem, the focus is the public, where there is [I]extremely obviously a bias towards men[/I].
[editline]8th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glitchman;44488040]Because it's making people feel bad who aren't even contributing to the issue.
"Oh, you liked that movie? well you're racist, or sexist, or whatever"
It's negative reinforcement. I am far more moved by a feminist bringing actual real world examples to the table, rather than the reflections in the media. "OMG, two girls didn't talk in the movie? looks how that makes women take a backseat in everyday life!"
But when I hear about how women are working more and hours and for less, are dealing with being raped/killed in other countries or at home, or when a girl can't get job that she wants because men think she is more emotionally unstable. Sure, movies feed the reflections of these problems back into us, But I HIGHLY doubt some movies like WALL-E or UP, or even Braveheart are going to cause people to think that women aren't as good as men. At least not as much as actual travesties happening out there. I think it's just a waste of resources to focus on those things. Other media, like WWE wrestling, is a bit more over the top in terms of sexism. But why can't she start a crowd fund and do a report on how women are treated in real life, and why didn't she do that first? I guess this is all just my opinion, so if you disagree that's fine.[/QUOTE]
No one is saying that though. No one is accusing anyone of being a sexist for liking a movie or a game that doesn't pass the bechdel test. But be honest here, how much do you think people in this community would know about this if it wasn't brought up in relation to the way their games are? There is literally far more funds, organizations, and projects that seek to help women and other people who need it and to challenged oppressive social norms than there are people being critical of this or that aspect, but again, because the purview for people in the gaming community goes as far as TvW and its relation to media and Sarkisian, then they don't know that. You want to work with the positive? Go for it, you have plenty of options- just do a quick google search for organizations for helping, giving aid to, sheltering, or promoting women, women's issues, or gender issues in general. This isn't some attack on this or that medium, this is a criticism of the way that it handles it and bringing awareness to the issue. This is only one small aspect of a wider movement. And it's an important one, because being only positive gets you nowhere without being critical of the negative.
Can´t wait till movies will be forced to have quotas on everything just to represent every minority on earth.
[QUOTE=Impact1986;44488580]Can´t wait till movies will be forced to have quotas on everything just to represent every minority on earth.[/QUOTE]
shit like that is detrimental to those minorities' causes though
[QUOTE=Impact1986;44488580]Can´t wait till movies will be forced to have quotas on everything just to represent every minority on earth.[/QUOTE]
This is exactly why I hate this movement. It won't stop here.
[QUOTE=Impact1986;44488580]Can´t wait till movies will be forced to have quotas on everything just to represent every minority on earth.[/QUOTE]
That wasn't the point of the video at all.
[QUOTE=The Combine;44488711]This is exactly why I hate this movement. It won't stop here.[/QUOTE]
tbh this just screams "help I don't want to lose my privilege" to me.
You're scared of minorities actually getting fair representation? Considering the fact you quite happily posted some classist shit earlier I'm going to make a pretty educated assumption you're a middle class (upper, lower, whatever) while male with no actual understanding of these concepts?
These movements do not call for anything like quotas in media, the people in the movements know that is counter-productive. The quotas are usually put in place by people with some form of privilege as they don't actually understand the movement properly, and don't see the harm quotas actually can cause.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;44489259] classist shit earlier I'm going to make a pretty educated assumption[/QUOTE]
What educated assumption? Seems kinda stupid to me.
[QUOTE=Jon MadN;44486948]Except a woman with all those assets would be called pandering[/QUOTE]
Oddly enough I'm sure you wouldn't call it pandering when there's a male lead that's ambitious, good-looking, has the hots for a woman, erudition, and common sense. James Bond would be a fitting example here...
[editline]8th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Glitchman;44488040]But when I hear about how women are working more and hours and for less, are dealing with being raped/killed in other countries or at home, or when a girl can't get job that she wants because men think she is more emotionally unstable. Sure, movies feed the reflections of these problems back into us, But I HIGHLY doubt some movies like WALL-E or UP, or even Braveheart are going to cause people to think that women aren't as good as men. At least not as much as actual travesties happening out there. I think it's just a waste of resources to focus on those things. Other media, like WWE wrestling, is a bit more over the top in terms of sexism. But why can't she start a crowd fund and do a report on how women are treated in real life, and why didn't she do that first? I guess this is all just my opinion, so if you disagree that's fine.[/QUOTE]
That's basically the "there are more important things in this world why are you complaining about this one thing" argument and it's stupid.
[editline]8th April 2014[/editline]
Video games are a form of media, how the media represents things is a huge part of what people think, and video games are one of the most consumed forms of media right now, and one that is thought to be exclusively male, so constantly portraying negative stereotypes about women in such a large medium aimed largely at males is not good.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];44487396']
Bullshit.
The test clearly shows that as a society we aren't portraying women as being full persons, just objects or catalysts for a story. If we can't create women characters who have emotions independent existences from men, or some other significant interaction then it clearly shows what we think of women as a society. When the [I]vast[/I] majority of films can't have two female characters talk about something other than a male character then what is that saying?
Of course there are exceptions, you can have a developed and personable female character without them being focused on a man, but that's just as unlikely.[/QUOTE]
We have plenty of films that cast underdeveloped, dumb yet "strong" men in leading roles as well. Dont' try to pin the entire issue on masochistic men who see women as only objects.
James Bond [I]is[/I] a pandering wish fulfillment fantasy though. Most of the time, anyway. That ain't a bad thing, but that's how it is. Same as Indiana Jones or Batman.
If you want an equivalent number of female versions of that character, then you'll need to find an equally sized audience that wants female versions of that character.
I mean, I want to live in a world in which there are as many Blade Runner type movies as there are Transformers movies. But unfortunately the demand for Transformers is greater than the demand for movies like Blade Runner, and so we are left with the current woeful state of things. Such is life.
[editline]8th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaddaCheeb;44491218]We have plenty of films that cast underdeveloped, dumb yet "strong" men in leading roles as well. Dont' try to pin the entire issue on masochistic men who see women as only objects.[/QUOTE]
I would put the majority of what's considered "sexism" down to poor screenwriting and editing. Most characters in a bad script only have one character trait, or only do one thing, or only exist to further the plot. And if anyone has a working solution that will end the plague of subpar writing in media once and for all, I will forever worship you at your feet and subscribe to whatever philosophical beliefs you desire.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.