[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722011]Heres an example. She criticized bayonetta because it features a female character who acts and dresses sexy while ignoring the fact that it fit in with the rest of the games style and ignoring the fact that the company that made it also makes games with sexy males all the time. She often criticizes females being portrayed without even thinking about why they are or if it belongs or not.[/QUOTE]
to some extent i can recognize the sexism that feminist gamers tend to complain about in video game characters. but at the same time i think they need to realize that male characters are often lazily written as well. female characters usually follow archetypes, sure, but male characters do too.
whether something is "sexist" shouldn't depend on your personal opinion of what a woman's personality should be, women have just as diverse personalities as men and some women are more sexually inclined. in my opinion it should be based on differences in quality of character development between male and female characters in the same game, and usually you'll find that male characters are just as sloppily written in "sexist" games.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722165]Really? So you are telling me she had a good reason to criticize bayonetta without even playing it? So what reason did she have besides seeing a sexy female and hating it simply because it was a sexy female?[/QUOTE]
ummmm
[QUOTE=thisispain;38722085]that's what it takes to be an anti-sex feminist???
obviously you don't know shit about pro-sex feminism
look sexuality is an extremely complex issue and saying it's just "part of the games style" omits the fact that visuals try to portray something.
Bayonetta is an extremely fetishistic game that takes obvious pride in exploiting the lead designer's "perfect woman". saying that you find this objectionable is not ANTI-SEX.
are you saying i'm anti-sex because i too find issue with that kind of visual exploitation? because that would be bizarre and i'm pretty sure i couldn't be called anti-sex in any way. my avatar is a reference to one of Bjork's most explicitly sexual videos
[B]Bayonetta is mostly stretching the dominatrix femdom as much as possible, whether it's an ironic post-modern exploration or a stark fantasy rooted in fetishistic sexuality is anyone's interpretive guess[/B][/QUOTE]
he explained this to you already?!
[QUOTE=Neo Kabuto;38722169]It is, but I don't think Dori has managed to pass the threshold for it yet.[/QUOTE]
Maybe he wants to help argue instead of instantly boxing anyone who disagrees with him.
[editline]5th December 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=ShazzyFreak0;38722181]ummmm
he explained this to you already?![/QUOTE]
And without playing the game can you actually just write her off as a bad female character simply because the game involves sexuality?
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;38722173]to some extent i can recognize the sexism that feminist gamers tend to complain about in video game characters. but at the same time i think they need to realize that male characters are often lazily written as well. female characters usually follow archetypes, sure, but male characters do too.
whether something is "sexist" shouldn't depend on your personal opinion of what a woman's personality should be, women have just as diverse personalities as men and some women are more sexually inclined. in my opinion it should be based on differences in quality of character development between male and female characters in the same game, and usually you'll find that male characters are just as sloppily written in "sexist" games.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but the thing is a woman's body can easily be exploited in a game
It's kinda hard to use a man's body to appeal, there are ways though
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;38722161]I wasn't saying we shouldn't be talking about her.
I was saying she's just as important as any other issue.[/QUOTE]
are you sure because the way you wrote this :
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;38721999]Never mind that people legitimately want to [B]KILL[/B] the president, there are organized groups that display hate and contempt towards him, while [B]a bunch of nerds[/B] are making rape[B] jokes[/B] and [B]trolling online [/B]about Sarkeesian[/QUOTE]
makes it seem like you're downplaying this sarkeesian thing.
[QUOTE=thisispain;38722096]
oh ffs no she does not don't be ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
What? She says that being attracted to the female body is a fetish in the 'Monster Mysoginy' video and in every video where nudity is brought up she criticises the subject just for having naked women.
As a side note I'd actually like to see what she has to say about Game of Thrones.
[QUOTE=ShazzyFreak0;38722195]are you sure because the way you wrote this :
makes it seem like you're downplaying this sarkeesian thing.[/QUOTE]
I don't think I'm downplaying it, that's pretty much what it is
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722147]You realize bayonetta was designed by a woman right?[/QUOTE]
This is a really crappy dodge. Firstly, women can be sexist and internalize misogyny. There are women who believe women shouldn't be allowed to vote. That doesn't make it not sexist. Secondly, even if that wasn't true, the lead designer of Bayonetta was a man, as were a large majority of the developers. The female character designer everyone likes to point to was already working under the direction of the male lead who was specifically asking her to make [url=http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?cId=3174402]"a sexy witch"[/url] and emphasizing that her defining character trait was [url=http://gameinformer.com/games/bayonetta/b/ps3/archive/2009/09/29/preview.aspx]"sexiness."[/url]
I've heard a lot of people, including feminists, come down on both sides of Bayonetta, and there's been a lot of interesting discussion about it. I haven't played it and don't really have an opinion. But my point is that if the character ISN'T sexist, it's because of how the game and the character are presented. It's not because they paid a woman to draw their sexy witch.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722184]Maybe he wants to help argue instead of instantly boxing anyone who disagrees with him.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's a good one
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722147]It is in the way she treats videogames. She hates the expression of it in media and hates the fact that a female character can be open sexually.[/QUOTE]
come on stop messing around
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722147]You realize bayonetta was designed by a woman right? The character bayonetta is a very strong female character and if you or Anita actually played the game before criticising it you would realize it actually helps her character and makes some interesting character interaction.[/QUOTE]
it's all about perspective dude.
the game is really sexualized, it's just up to the person to say whether they like it or not
idk if anita did say it was bad i don't agree, the character is practically a parody of herself
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722147]It might not be the best written videogame ever but I can't actually expect someone who really played the game to think it has any type of anti female message. If anything I would say it has a positive one.[/QUOTE]
yeah but i'm still not convinced you're anti-sex when you don't like bayonetta, that just seems to be pulling a lot of straw
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;38722200]What? She says that being attracted to the female body is a fetish in the 'Monster Mysoginy' video[/QUOTE]
no she doesn't
[QUOTE=thisispain;38722213]yeah but i'm still not convinced you're anti-sex when you don't like bayonetta, that just seems to be pulling a lot of straw[/QUOTE]
She hates sexuality in videogames. She criticizes games simply for having it in without even trying to understand why its in there. Thats pretty much anti sex.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;38722173]female characters usually follow archetypes, sure, but male characters do too.[/QUOTE]
male character archetypes tend to be more powerful while women are either submissive, an object of sexual desire, or some sort of hag.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;38722173]to some extent i can recognize the sexism that feminist gamers tend to complain about in video game characters. but at the same time i think they need to realize that male characters are often lazily written as well. female characters usually follow archetypes, sure, but male characters do too.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that the lazy male character archetype is one of power and dominance, being someone the player is supposed to fantasize about being, whereas the lazy female character archetype is basically just looking/acting sexy, and the player isn't encouraged to empathize with or imagine being them.
A good example is the new Tomb Raider game. In interviews the developers talk about the player "leading" Lara Croft around and "helping her" out of situations. It happens a lot when discussing games with female protagonists and it's something you pretty much never hear when people are talking about male player characters.
[editline]6th December 2012[/editline]
dammit yawmwen
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;38722194]Yeah, but the thing is a woman's body can easily be exploited in a game
It's kinda hard to use a man's body to appeal, there are ways though[/QUOTE]
i'm more referring to things like anita sarkeesian's videos on female character archetypes. a character who solely exists for eye candy without any reasoning for it can understandably be offensive. but when it comes to non-sexual characters being considered sexist/offensive i think it's just nitpicking.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;38722240]male character archetypes tend to be more powerful while women are either submissive, an object of sexual desire, or some sort of hag.[/QUOTE]
Unless of course you are counting japan where the opposite is true much of the time. Besides archetypes are bad either way.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;38722251]i'm more referring to things like anita sarkeesian's videos on female character archetypes. a character who solely exists for eye candy without any reasoning for it can understandably be offensive. but when it comes to non-sexual characters being considered sexist/offensive i think it's just nitpicking.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I can agree with that.
[QUOTE=TH89;38722244]The problem is that the lazy male character archetype is one of power and dominance, being someone the player is supposed to fantasize about being, whereas the lazy female character archetype is basically just looking/acting sexy, and the player isn't encouraged to empathize with or imagine being them.[/QUOTE]
pretty much. most positive traits are considered "masculine" and emphasized in male characters, while feminine traits tend to be considered negative or offensive. it's more an issue with society in general than games in specific.
[QUOTE=TH89;38722244]The problem is that the lazy male character archetype is one of power and dominance, being someone the player is supposed to fantasize about being, whereas the lazy female character archetype is basically just looking/acting sexy, and the player isn't encouraged to empathize with or imagine being them.
A good example is the new Tomb Raider game. In interviews the developers talk about the player "leading" Lara Croft around and "helping her" out of situations. It happens a lot when discussing games with female protagonists and it's something you pretty much never hear when people are talking about male player characters.
[editline]6th December 2012[/editline]
dammit yawmwen[/QUOTE]
you explained it way better than me
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722237]She hates sexuality in videogames. She criticizes games simply for having it in without even trying to understand why its in there. Thats pretty much anti sex.[/QUOTE]
Well sometimes sex in video games seems pretty tacked on and pointless.
Still not that big of a deal though, so I feel you
furthermore most popular games tend to involve situations where stereotypically male traits are more useful. when i was little i played the nancy drew pc games a lot and as a series geared toward girls, they emphasized situations where intelligence was more valuable than traits like strength and recklessness. nancy was still a stereotypically feminine character but she was a strong protagonist because the situations in each game emphasized the use of those traits.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;38722263]pretty much. most positive traits are considered "masculine" and emphasized in male characters, while feminine traits tend to be considered negative or offensive. it's more an issue with society in general than games in specific.[/QUOTE]
I agree that it's endemic to society, but it's a lot more common in games (and certain types of comics, like superhero stuff for example) than it is in, say, Hollywood movies. If you look at a lineup of a bunch of AAA videogames versus a bunch of blockbuster movies, you're definitely going to see more blatant sexism, racism, exploitation in the videogames.
[QUOTE=AJisAwesome15;38722302]Well sometimes sex in video games seems pretty tacked on and pointless.
Still not that big of a deal though, so I feel you[/QUOTE]
I would agree that it is tacked on much of the time and is made as a lazy way to appeal to people. I am not saying it isn't. I am just saying the way Anita goes about it is wrong.
i think
she is cute
she has a cute nose
i like her face
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722237]She hates sexuality in videogames. She criticizes games simply for having it in without even trying to understand why its in there. Thats pretty much anti sex.[/QUOTE]
then i guess i'm anti-sex too then lmao
[QUOTE=TH89;38722304]I agree that it's endemic to society, but it's a lot more common in games (and certain types of comics, like superhero stuff for example) than it is in, say, Hollywood movies. If you look at a lineup of a bunch of AAA videogames versus a bunch of blockbuster movies, you're definitely going to see more blatant sexism, racism, exploitation in the videogames.[/QUOTE]
Well you could say it might be because of the videogame market is today. Everyone wants to buy action games and shooters. Things filled with buff men and explosions. I wouldn't mind seeing less of this.
Relatively off-topic but I was looking at the "men are discriminated aainst" indiegogo twitter thing, and holy shit people jumped down their throat while they were donating to charity. Also I hate people who insult people on twitter by saying something like "you're sad :)", condescending bullshit. Stupid "online feminist magazine" makijg feminism as a whole look bad. I think that's my whole issue with Anita as well. The vibe I get from her isn't so much of wanting women to look better on their own, but making men out to be worse, which is silly imo. There is a relatively fine balance of strong female characters in games (and media in general) to women who are not. Suggesting that some tropes are outdated, such as a damsel in distress is a valid point, but it's been used in stories for 1000s of years, and it's unrealistic to believe that that will change anytime soon.
And that's it. I don't even dislike Anita (that much), it's just that I think what she's doing is redundent, unrealistic, and wasteful. I would say she should donate the rest of the kickstarter mney to childs play, but she's probsbly afraid that a kid would play a game where you have to rescue Princess Peach.
Also fuck writing on phones.
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;38722327]i think
she is cute
she has a cute nose
i like her face[/QUOTE]
at least you didn't mention boners
ive masturbated too many times today to get another boner
[QUOTE=thisispain;38722335]then i guess i'm anti-sex too then lmao[/QUOTE]
Do you believe sexuality shouldn't be in videogames? Would you be against say some of the persona games? I think videogames are an art form and should be able to show many things and that sexuality can be presented in ways and has in good and thoughtful non offensive ways and I believe you can have a sexy character without being offensive.
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