[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;38722327]i think
she is cute
she has a cute nose
i like her face[/QUOTE]
Don't punch it
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;38722303]furthermore most popular games tend to involve situations where stereotypically male traits are more useful. when i was little i played the nancy drew pc games a lot and as a series geared toward girls, they emphasized situations where intelligence was more valuable than traits like strength and recklessness. nancy was still a stereotypically feminine character but she was a strong protagonist because the situations in each game emphasized the use of those traits.[/QUOTE]
Love the name irony
[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;38722388]maybe tomorrow morning[/QUOTE]
it's like that ted talk from the other guy
porn has made me lose all sexual desire
my drive to do anything is gone
i want to jump into traffic
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722384]Do you believe sexuality shouldn't be in videogames? Would you be against say some of the persona games? I think videogames are an art form and should be able to show many things and that sexuality can be presented in ways and has in good and thoughtful non offensive ways and I believe you can have a sexy character without being offensive.[/QUOTE]
nah there's a difference tho
i get put off by macho heteronormative sexuality as much as ms. feministfrequency does.
i might disagree with her on how guilty bayonetta is of it (it's more funny than sexy to me), but i don't think games are better off when exploiting terribly one-sided sexuality designed to sell a product rather than explore sexuality
that's ultimately how i approach it.
is this something that is trying to explore or understand sexuality, or is it trying to sell me something using curves?
woody allen is quite sexist in a lot of ways, but i love him and his movies because when he explores sexuality he's doing it because it interests him, not because it sells. i'm not put off by any sexist themes because the main important part of the work is still strong and interesting. he's trying to understand his own sexuality and perhaps his own sexist attitudes, which is very strongly explored in Annie Hall.
in a work that is 100% sexist, the sexuality is not explored but used for the sake of selling something. pornography basically, except it's cynical and the entire work falls apart once you unravel the cynicism.
what anita does a poor job of doing is exploring sexuality itself. i can't fault her considering they are short youtube videos and sexuality isn't really the subject, but no feminist discourse is complete without a critique of sexuality.
[QUOTE=Hunterdnrc;38722350]Relatively off-topic but I was looking at the "men are discriminated aainst" indiegogo twitter thing, and holy shit people jumped down their throat while they were donating to charity. Also I hate people who insult people on twitter by saying something like "you're sad :)", condescending bullshit. Stupid "online feminist magazine" makijg feminism as a whole look bad. I think that's my whole issue with Anita as well. The vibe I get from her isn't so much of wanting women to look better on their own, but making men out to be worse, which is silly imo. There is a relatively fine balance of strong female characters in games (and media in general) to women who are not. Suggesting that some tropes are outdated, such as a damsel in distress is a valid point, but it's been used in stories for 1000s of years, and it's unrealistic to believe that that will change anytime soon.
And that's it. I don't even dislike Anita (that much), it's just that I think what she's doing is redundent, unrealistic, and wasteful. I would say she should donate the rest of the kickstarter mney to childs play, but she's probsbly afraid that a kid would play a game where you have to rescue Princess Peach.
Also fuck writing on phones.[/QUOTE]
Well of course if you think games aren't sexist and everything is fine and nothing about them should be changed you would disagree with Anita Sarkeesian
But
You would be wrong
[QUOTE=thisispain;38722521]is this something that is trying to explore or understand sexuality, or is it trying to sell me something using curves?[/QUOTE]
But it isn't just about her curves. Bayonetta is the way she is the for the same reason Donte is. They want a stylized character to fit their stylized world to complement their gameplay. If bayonetta was a cop or a foot soldier in a realistic game I would agree and be mad saying that it doesn't belong but as a witch that beats up angles it all makes sense. Bayonetta is more than just a sexy character for the sake of sex. She was designed to fit the game and is why I think she is a good example of sex in videogames.
tbh i don't know enough about bayonetta to make that judgement
if you want to beef on anita for bayonetta go ahead, just don't make crazy claims about her being anti-sex because i think that's a way out strawman
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;38722173]to some extent i can recognize the sexism that feminist gamers tend to complain about in video game characters. but at the same time i think they need to realize that male characters are often lazily written as well. female characters usually follow archetypes, sure, but male characters do too.
whether something is "sexist" shouldn't depend on your personal opinion of what a woman's personality should be, women have just as diverse personalities as men and some women are more sexually inclined. in my opinion it should be based on differences in quality of character development between male and female characters in the same game, and usually you'll find that male characters are just as sloppily written in "sexist" games.[/QUOTE]
It's not so much that we're advocating women to be barred from being depicted a certain way in media (although there are a few forms that I wouldn't mind if they were gotten rid of) but rather that we're taking issue with the fact that they're usually depicted in only [I]a few[/I] ways (which ends up catering to only a specific audience), so that kinda goes against your whole point of "letting people enjoy diversity."
its a shame that the violent reactions to her video are what catapulted her into the spotlight and not her viewpoints or integrity (or lack thereof).
[QUOTE=TheJoey;38722692]its a shame that the violent reactions to her video are what catapulted her into the spotlight and not her viewpoints or integrity (or lack thereof).[/QUOTE]
Honestly she would have faced a brutal backlash like that regardless of how salient her points were. She herself isn't even really the important part of the story anymore, it doesn't matter whether she has integrity or not, because the fact that a woman raised the possibility that women might be poorly represented and treated in the gaming community and was subsequently sent threats of violence, rape, and death [i]en masse[/i] IS the story. Not her, not her documentary.
If all it was was someone being disingenuous and unethical and people taking issue with that, it would have ended right there and nobody would have cared.
[QUOTE=TH89;38722719]Honestly she would have faced a brutal backlash like that regardless of how salient her points were. She herself isn't even really the important part of the story anymore, it doesn't matter whether she has integrity or not, because the fact that a woman raised the possibility that women might be poorly represented and treated in the gaming community and was subsequently sent threats of violence, rape, and death [i]en masse[/i] IS the story. Not her, not her documentary.
If all it was was someone being disingenuous and unethical and people taking issue with that, it would have ended right there and nobody would have cared.[/QUOTE]
except the fact of the matter is if it was somebody else who actually used the money given to her to do, say, research into the subject matter (instead of showing off images of a. her buying video games with said money and b. going to cons) we would be in a much different place today, wouldn't we? and so would she.
she would be above the threats and remarks and she would be proving that she can really do what the loudest, most hateful parts of the internet said she couldn't do.
instead of, yknow, not doing that or much of anything at all and proving what her college papers of the past showed: she cant hold a point worth shit and is a terrible role model for equal rights.
she's not helping the fight, not by a long shot.
i guess i'm dumb because i want a human being that is worth a damn to stand up and say "i am a woman and i can be viewed equally in all forms of media". i just happen to think anita sarkeesian is not that human being.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;38722754]except the fact of the matter is if it was somebody else who actually used the money given to her to do, say, research into the subject matter (instead of showing off images of a. her buying video games with said money and b. going to cons) we would be in a much different place today, wouldn't we? and so would she.
she would be above the threats and remarks and she would be proving that she can really do what the loudest, most hateful parts of the internet said she couldn't do.
instead of, yknow, not doing that or much of anything at all and proving what her college papers of the past showed: she cant hold a point worth shit and is a terrible role model for equal rights.
she's not helping the fight, not by a long shot.
i guess i'm dumb because i want a human being that is worth a damn to stand up and say "i am a woman and i can be viewed equally in all forms of media". i just happen to think anita sarkeesian is not that human being.[/QUOTE]
Well see, I don't know if you're saying that because you genuinely want a great documentary that looks at games through a feminist lens, or because you're looking for reasons to tear down the one person who stood up and decided to make it happen. But the fact that you don't consider buying video games and going to conventions to be a good way to research games and gamer culture makes me think it's the latter.
If you want to make a case that the cause is good but the execution is poor, maybe it'd be better to wait until the documentary actually materializes before jumping on every little thing she does as evidence that she's an evil witch who is wrong/lying/ripping everyone off
[QUOTE=TH89;38722804]Well see, I don't know if you're saying that because you genuinely want a great documentary that looks at games through a feminist lens[/QUOTE]
i want a great documentary that looks at games through the lens of someone who believes in social equality. i want someone to go to the developers and ask them themselves. i would give money to someone who has proven that they can make good documentaries in the past, or that theyve worked in the game industry in any way, even gaming journalism would suffice for me. someone who has proven that they actually play games or have played games with these issues. if gaming is not their thing and they do not happen to pay attention to the gaming industry, and if perhaps television or movies are more what theyre into (which happens to be the case for anita sarkeesian given the subject of her research paper in college, namely gender in/equalities in her favorite television shows) where they would have more experience or knowledge, then i would donate to that cause as well.
i have seen her work. i have seen her bayonetta video. if she backed her argument up with any substantial research or information in that video, i would support her. the video was bad. it was taken down for a reason (even after comments were disabled). i've seen enough of her videos to know she doesn't improve over time, nor does she listen to proper criticism (and i dont mean the neanderthal level youtube comments) nor respond to the proper criticism.
i support all intelligent women that are fighting for social equalities in media. she, however, does not hold up. there are many feminists that agree with me, that there's a lot she's doing wrong at the moment, and isnt fit to be the "social justice leader" she's making herself out to be.
please, tell me, what of her work that you have seen is your favorite, that perhaps most accurately discusses the issues that women face every day, and why? i'm curious.
edit: and im sure you agree with all of the extra money she got waaay over her minimum kickstarter amount, she can afford to step it up a little bit with her research, like when i said above "someone who asks the developers themselves". valve i'm sure would be more than happy to give her a quick tour and a full interview with any of the writers, since they do that sort of thing all the time.
this is what happens when we let females get educated.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Trolling" - MaxOfS2D))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=TheJoey;38722888]i want a great documentary that looks at games through the lens of someone who believes in social equality. i want someone to go to the developers and ask them themselves. i would give money to someone who has proven that they can make good documentaries in the past, or that theyve worked in the game industry in any way, even gaming journalism would suffice for me. someone who has proven that they actually play games or have played games with these issues. if gaming is not their thing and they do not happen to pay attention to the gaming industry, and if perhaps television or movies are more what theyre into (which happens to be the case for anita sarkeesian given the subject of her research paper in college, namely gender in/equalities in her favorite television shows) where they would have more experience or knowledge, then i would donate to that cause as well.
i have seen her work. i have seen her bayonetta video. if she backed her argument up with any substantial research or information in that video, i would support her. the video was bad. it was taken down for a reason (even after comments were disabled). i've seen enough of her videos to know she doesn't improve over time, nor does she listen to proper criticism (and i dont mean the neanderthal level youtube comments) nor respond to the proper criticism.
i support all intelligent women that are fighting for social equalities in media. she, however, does not hold up. there are many feminists that agree with me, that there's a lot she's doing wrong at the moment, and isnt fit to be the "social justice leader" she's making herself out to be.[/QUOTE]
If you have legitimate problems with how she does things, then fine, but complaining that she's using documentary funds to buy games and go to conventions is kinda ridiculous. You want research, that's research--playing games and examining places where gamers and game developers congregate in person. That's a perfectly reasonable use of raised funds.
I've tried watching her videos and I agree they're not amazing. But the fact is not many people, women in particular, are willing to put themselves out there and discuss issues like these because they know what happened to her will happen to them. It's incredibly exacting to face down a misogynistic goliath like the games community and deal with threats and harassment constantly. If her documentary isn't great, that'll be too bad, but maybe it'll inspire more people to step up and make better documentaries, knowing it's possible and knowing that people are willing to chip in when necessary. You don't even really need much money to make a documentary anyway, as long as you can afford a camera and have some free time.
Even if her documentary is as shitty as you think it will be, I'm having a hard time seeing all this as a net negative. It'll raise awareness, inspire more and better efforts, and most importantly raise the profile of this conversation--one that dudegamers consistently try to shut down, whether that's with violent threats or with passive-aggressive "why can't we all just shut up and play games" dismissals.
[QUOTE=TH89;38722941]If you have legitimate problems with how she does things, then fine, but complaining that she's using documentary funds to buy games and go to conventions is kinda ridiculous. [/QUOTE]
[quote]edit: and im sure you agree with all of the extra money she got waaay over her minimum kickstarter amount, she can afford to step it up a little bit with her research, like when i said above "someone who asks the developers themselves". valve i'm sure would be more than happy to give her a quick tour and a full interview with any of the writers, since they do that sort of thing all the time. [/quote]
it's simply not enough. the amount she's holding onto right now has many zeros attached to it. she already had the recording equipment, she spent some cash on games several of which are no longer full $60 price, and she went to conventions holding a sign.
that's pathetic. it's not enough. she can do more, simply because she has the ability. i believe in social equality and i believe doing the bare minimum is never enough.
and this is what infuriates me, that people actually look at what she's done and they say "eh, that's enough, be happy with what she's doing". no, sorry. do more. go all the way, because it's what you believe in. that alone is why it is always worth it.
[QUOTE=TH89;38722719]Honestly she would have faced a brutal backlash like that regardless of how salient her points were. She herself isn't even really the important part of the story anymore, it doesn't matter whether she has integrity or not, because the fact that a woman raised the possibility that women might be poorly represented and treated in the gaming community and was subsequently sent threats of violence, rape, and death [i]en masse[/i] IS the story. Not her, not her documentary.
If all it was was someone being disingenuous and unethical and people taking issue with that, it would have ended right there and nobody would have cared.[/QUOTE]
The thing is videogames have taken criticism for years because of how childish they portray woman and there has been little backlash. I really do believe its just because of the way Anita is going about it that caused the uproar.
[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;38720539]people aren't throwing abuse at her for being a woman who reviews games, they're throwing abuse at her because she's incompetent at reviewing.[/QUOTE]
this is where most people are wrong, for the millionth time.
while MOST people here on FP are aware of what she is actually doing wrong and what she is doing that is worth crtisizing, the majority of the people attacking her just in general do not care about these specific details, and as the commenter in your first post says, you can see this is an industry-wide problem by going through that hashtag on twitter.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722954]The thing is videogames have taken criticism for years because of how childish they portray woman and there has been little backlash. I really do believe its just because of the way Anita is going about it that caused the uproar.[/QUOTE]
There has been a ton of backlash. It happens all the time. Remember when the black blogger posted the blog about how hey the new Resident Evil looks like it might be kinda racist and he was completely mobbed and vilified by gamers for like a week? And then Resident Evil came out and oh wow it actually was really racist. That kind of shit happens all the time. The Anita Sarkeesian thing has been bigger for a couple reasons:
-The viralized nature of the various social media platforms and communities involved (it's easier than ever for things to get spread around at high speed)
-The broad scope of the project (something for every dudegamer to get mad about)
-And the big one: Our changing social landscape means more people are sympathetic to feminism and more people are speaking out about it. In the past, this kind of backlash has tended to be small-scale because women and other minorities would just give up and not say anything in order to avoid being berated and abused. But as the number of them in gaming starts to grow, they're getting more bold and less willing to tolerate this kind of shitty treatment from fellow players and from developers. So the bigoted, reactionary majority (or at least the vocal minority) is starting to flip their shit now that they're seeing their dominance so openly questioned.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38722954]The thing is videogames have taken criticism for years because of how childish they portray woman and there has been little backlash. I really do believe its just because of the way Anita is going about it that caused the uproar.[/QUOTE]
it's the scale on which she is doing it and the scale of the backlash to her methods in media. the small portion that is seriously looking at what she is doing wrong projects her "story" onto people that couldn't care less about the details and just think the general idea of a woman looking at the portrayal of women in gaming is stupid.
what i dont understand is how everyone can get their tits in a twist because anita sarkeesian got a couple hundred thousand dollars willingly donated to her but when the multi million dollar Ouya gets mentioned it results in a sort of wet sopping "bleh"
no one seems to be dropping their fudge over pewdiepie making six digits by screaming the word rape at a camera for an hour while he plays flash games, yet the moment any sarky is brought up an instant F5 internet shit tornado is summoned from the ether
obviously there's some element causing this reaction beyond her getting lots of money
[QUOTE=TH89;38723000]There has been a ton of backlash. It happens all the time. Remember when the black blogger posted the blog about how hey the new Resident Evil looks like it might be kinda racist and he was completely mobbed and vilified by gamers for like a week? And then Resident Evil came out and oh wow it actually was really racist. That kind of shit happens all the time. The Anita Sarkeesian thing has been bigger for a couple reasons:
-The viralized nature of the various social media platforms and communities involved (it's easier than ever for things to get spread around at high speed)
-The broad scope of the project (something for every dudegamer to get mad about)
-And the big one: Our changing social landscape means more people are sympathetic to feminism and more people are speaking out about it. In the past, this kind of backlash has tended to be small-scale because women and other minorities would just give up and not say anything in order to avoid being berated and abused. But as the number of them in gaming starts to grow, they're getting more bold and less willing to tolerate this kind of shitty treatment from fellow players and from developers. So the bigoted, reactionary majority (or at least the vocal minority) is starting to flip their shit now that they're seeing their dominance so openly questioned.[/QUOTE]
exactly this. I remember a great number of people on here going "how can a videogame even be racist, this is so stupid!" until they officially revealed the alternative costume for the black female character in the game (which was basically just leopard skin rags with a spear) that they shut up
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;38723008]what i dont understand is how everyone can get their tits in a twist because anita sarkeesian got a couple hundred thousand dollars willingly donated to her but when the multi million dollar Ouya gets mentioned it results in a sort of wet sopping "bleh"
no one seems to be dropping their fudge over pewdiepie making six digits by screaming the word rape at a camera for an hour while he plays flash games, yet the moment any sarky is brought up an instant F5 internet shit tornado is summoned from the ether
obviously there's some element causing this reaction beyond her getting lots of money[/QUOTE]
I am assuming its because she missed her deadlines and still hasn't released a video. Also I have seen a lot of people rage over the how much pewdie and Ouya have made.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;38723008]what i dont understand is how everyone can get their tits in a twist because anita sarkeesian got a couple hundred thousand dollars willingly donated to her but when the multi million dollar Ouya gets mentioned it results in a sort of wet sopping "bleh"
no one seems to be dropping their fudge over pewdiepie making six digits by screaming the word rape at a camera for an hour while he plays flash games, yet the moment any sarky is brought up an instant F5 internet shit tornado is summoned from the ether
obviously there's some element causing this reaction beyond her getting lots of money[/QUOTE]
that is what we call a double standard
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;38723008]
no one seems to be dropping their fudge over pewdiepie making six digits by screaming the word rape at a camera for an hour while he plays flash games[/QUOTE]
no, this is beyond bullshit. the backlash was so bad that he actually eventually was forced to say that he won't be making rape jokes anymore.
there is a huuuuuge hatedom on the internet for pewdiepie. you're just not paying attention to it. hell it washed over FP just a few weeks ago just like the topic of anita sarkeesian does every once in a while.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38723017]I am assuming its because she missed her deadlines and still hasn't released a video.[/QUOTE]
are you kidding? the backlash started before the kickstarter had even completed
[QUOTE=RoadOfGirl;38723024]are you kidding? the backlash started before the kickstarter had even completed[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it could be argued the main reason she has so much money in the first place is because the backlash was so incredibly over the top that it basically made her point for her.
[QUOTE=TheJoey;38722950]no, sorry. do more. go all the way, because it's what you believe in. that alone is why it is always worth it.[/QUOTE]
I don't mean to butt into this conversation or anything but I don't really think you have the authority to make calls like that until you know what it's like to be in her position.
wonder if joey got this upset over duke nukem forever
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
