[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36803180]Well, sainus is claiming that misandry absolutely does not exist and isn't an issue.[/QUOTE]
first of all i'm not gonna fucking take your word for it
second of all, there's no institutional misandry and it forms no issue. the problems men face are due to institutionalized misogyny that promotes conservative notions of masculinity, we see in this in how gay men are perceived as fruity or feminine, how women are removed from combat roles, and how straight men are assumed to not have to care for a child in the case of a custody battle.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36803180]S/he's acting like males can't be discriminated against, so yeah, that's sexist and extreme.[/QUOTE]
the fuck are you talking about dude
males aren't discriminated against as a group, there's no law, de jure or de facto, that grants women privilege over men
[QUOTE=thisispain;36803221]
the fuck are you talking about dude
males aren't discriminated against as a group, there's no law, de jure or de facto, that grants women privilege over men[/QUOTE]
There doesn't need to be a law enforcing it for discrimination to exist.
[QUOTE=Loriborn;36803293]There doesn't need to be a law enforcing it for discrimination to exist.[/QUOTE]
that's what de facto means thank you
People aren't aware of the history and cultural context of feminism and it makes them look fucking stupid when they open their mouth, you're trivializing a huge important movement and you are stupid people
Learn what you're talking about or don't at all silly naive people
Males can be discriminated against but it barely ever happens at all ever.
It is like saying that sometimes people are annoyed by white people and are mean to them. It's not an issue.
[QUOTE=person11;36804054]Males can be discriminated against but it barely ever happens at all ever.
It is like saying that sometimes people are annoyed by white people and are mean to them. It's not an issue.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station[/url]
Racism goes every direction
that's not institutional racism. beyond calling it a hate crime there's nothing that can be socially done about that.
[QUOTE=thisispain;36803221]first of all i'm not gonna fucking take your word for it
second of all, there's no institutional misandry and it forms no issue. the problems men face are due to institutionalized misogyny that promotes conservative notions of masculinity, we see in this in how gay men are perceived as fruity or feminine, how women are removed from combat roles, and how straight men are assumed to not have to care for a child in the case of a custody battle.
[/QUOTE]
Male discrimination isn't caused by misogyny, because our society isn't based around hating women, but rather ideals for both sexes. I have no idea how many more times I'm going to have to say this before you actually listen to it. Men not winning custody battles as often isn't because it's seen as the woman's job to care for the child, it's because men are viewed as worse fathers- for the reasons stated above.
Also, what do you mean by "take my word for it"?
[QUOTE=thisispain;36803221]
the fuck are you talking about dude
males aren't discriminated against as a group, there's no law, de jure or de facto, that grants women privilege over men[/QUOTE]
Yes because the draft doesn't exist.
Also, there doesn't need to be a law supporting it for it to exist.
[editline]17th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;36804290]that's not institutional racism. beyond calling it a hate crime there's nothing that can be socially done about that.[/QUOTE]
I personally can't see any institutionalized sexism either, unless it goes both ways.
I am surprised it wasn't for dole banana's
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804310]Male discrimination isn't caused by misogyny, because our society isn't based around hating women[/QUOTE]
hatred of women and the hatred of the reproductive system of women is ingrained in our culture and many other cultures. i find your ethnocentrism very dull.
pornography and the fashion industry particularly have a tendency to treat their women like discarded pieces of meat, and you can't say that occurs the same in both sexes because the industry does not have a fetishistic view towards men.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804310] I have no idea how many more times I'm going to have to say this before you actually listen to it.[/QUOTE]
i dismiss it because "ideals" are socially driven by males.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804310]Men not winning custody battles as often isn't because it's seen as the woman's job to care for the child, it's because men are viewed as worse fathers- for the reasons stated above. [/QUOTE]
ugh men are viewed as worse fathers because women are considered the primary care-takers of children, IE it's not manly to take care of children. you're talking in a circle.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804310]Also, what do you mean by "take my word for it"?[/QUOTE]
if i wanted to know what sanius thought, i would ask him. i don't want to hear what you have to say about it.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804310]Yes because the draft doesn't exist.[/QUOTE]
in the US the draft doesn't exist, selective service does but that's an utterly deprecated service. besides that drafts in the other parts of the world are there because it's believed women cannot fight or shouldn't fight. you could call that a privilege but it's misogyny that causes it.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804310]Also, there doesn't need to be a law supporting it for it to exist.[/QUOTE]
that's what de facto means
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804310]I personally can't see any institutionalized sexism either[/QUOTE]
are you female?
the gender pay gap is not a myth, even when adjusted for the difference between male and female workers when it comes to the workplace, women on average earn less for the same exact work.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap[/url]
not to mention reproductive rights is strongly contested in the United States and even more so around the rest of the world?
you can't see any institutionalized sexism? in some parts of the world it's illegal for women to drive cars!
[QUOTE=thisispain;36804520]hatred of women and the hatred of the reproductive system of women is ingrained in our culture and many other cultures. i find your ethnocentrism very dull.
[/quote]
No it isn't. It used to be, but definitely not anymore.
[quote]
pornography and the fashion industry particularly have a tendency to treat their women like discarded pieces of meat, and you can't say that occurs the same in both sexes because the industry does not have a fetishistic view towards men.
[/quote]
Pornography doesn't count, it's something designed to satisfy a very primal urge that literally no one can control having unless they have their testicles cut off. Also, that's bullshit. [url=http://www.femdomartists.com/]proof[/url].
[quote]
i dismiss it because "ideals" are socially driven by males.
[/quote]
That might be, but that doesn't mean that it isn't an issue. They might have been at one point, but they certainly aren't anymore- And that's like saying that the KKK is alright because people [url=http://www.kkklan.com/negrok1.gif]like this[/url] man exist.
[quote]
ugh men are viewed as worse fathers because women are considered the primary care-takers of children, IE it's not manly to take care of children. you're talking in a circle.
[/quote]
Again- Our society is not driven off of hatred of women, but rather social ideals that go [B]both[/B] ways.
[quote]
if i wanted to know what sanius thought, i would ask him. i don't want to hear what you have to say about it.
[/quote]
Well, that's great, but I was talking about him (her?) calling it out on what it said.
[quote]
in the US the draft doesn't exist, selective service does but that's an utterly deprecated service. besides that drafts in the other parts of the world are there because it's believed women cannot fight or shouldn't fight. you could call that a privilege but it's misogyny that causes it.
[/quote]
Selective service the roster for the draft. Maybe if you actually had to enter it, you'd know that.
[quote]
are you female?
the gender pay gap is not a myth, even when adjusted for the difference between male and female workers when it comes to the workplace, women on average earn less for the same exact work.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap[/url]
[/quote]
I never said that misogyny doesn't exist. Ever.
[quote]
not to mention reproductive rights is strongly contested in the United States and even more so around the rest of the world?
[/quote]
What, you mean the exact same people that are trying to ban condoms?
[quote]
you can't see any institutionalized sexism? in some parts of the world it's illegal for women to drive cars!
[/quote]
And in some parts of the world men are useful only as slaves. We're talking about first world countries, here.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804673]No it isn't. It used to be, but definitely not anymore.[/QUOTE]
then you should explain to me why there's a debate about what women can do with their vagina's. you should explain to me why rape victims are dismissed. you should explain to me why most rapists go off scot free.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804673]Pornography doesn't count, it's something designed to satisfy a very primal urge that literally no one can control having unless they have their testicles cut off. Also, that's bullshit. [url=http://www.femdomartists.com/]proof[/url].[/QUOTE]
watching pornography is utterly different from the production of pornography, in which women are routinely abused.
and what does femdom have to do with anything?
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804673]That might be, but that doesn't mean that it isn't an issue. They might have been at one point, but they certainly aren't anymore- And that's like saying that the KKK is alright because people [url=http://www.kkklan.com/negrok1.gif]like this[/url] man exist.[/QUOTE]
you're not making sense. if men aren't the one's who control the ideals of society then who does? if it is women then you'd have to have an incredibly good explanation of why women would denigrate their own gender.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804673]Again- Our society is not driven off of hatred of women, but rather social ideals that go [B]both[/B] ways.[/QUOTE]
again going in circles. where does this ideal [b]come from[/b]? it didn't just pop into existence.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804673]Selective service the roster for the draft. Maybe if you actually had to enter it, you'd know that.[/QUOTE]
a roster for the draft isn't the same as a draft. i have actually entered it considering it's a requirement of people who live in the united states legally. there is no draft.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804673]What, you mean the exact same people that are trying to ban condoms?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36804673]And in some parts of the world men are useful only as slaves. We're talking about first world countries, here.[/QUOTE]
no, you're talking about first world countries. feminism as a movement is concerned with women, not just women in first world countries.
and uh, which parts of the world have men useful only as slaves? we're talking about the real world right?
--
[QUOTE=thisispain;36804801]
then you should explain to me why there's a debate about what women can do with their vagina's. you should explain to me why rape victims are dismissed. you should explain to me why most rapists go off scot free.
[/QUOTE]
As far as I'm concerned, if the woman put the case forward and it was dismissed by the court, it didn't happen. That's how our justice system works. Also, it's very probably that more men are raped than women. [URL]http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men-outnumber-women-among-american-rape-victims/[/URL]
[quote]
watching pornography is utterly different from the production of pornography, in which women are routinely abused.
and what does femdom have to do with anything?
[/quote]
I have no knowledge about what happens in the production of pornography, and I'm not going to pretend that I do. I posted the femdom site because you said that the industry does not have a fetishistic view towards men.
[quote]
you're not making sense. if men aren't the one's who control the ideals of society then who does? if it is women then you'd have to have an incredibly good explanation of why women would denigrate their own gender.
[/quote]
Society as a whole is. There is no big bad overarching group.
[quote]
again going in circles. where does this ideal [B]come from[/B]? it didn't just pop into existence.
[/quote]
It's true.
[quote]
a roster for the draft isn't the same as a draft. i have actually entered it considering it's a requirement of people who live in the united states legally. there is no draft.
[/quote]
There isn't a draft currently in effect, but you WILL be entered into it because of your selective service signup (Also, I was under the impression that you were a woman- they do not have to sign up for selective services currently)
[quote]
no, you're talking about first world countries. feminism as a movement is concerned with women, not just women in first world countries.
[/quote]
I talk in what I know. I don't know about third world countries, because I don't know them and don't live in them. Besides, that's like taking a step backwards in time. I'm talking about the issues that directly affect people I know and live with.
[quote]
and uh, which parts of the world have men useful only as slaves? we're talking about the real world right?
[/quote]
It was a hyperbole. Other parts of the world are other parts of the world, and all kinds of fucked up shit can happen. I'm talking about the society we live in.
[editline]17th July 2012[/editline]
Sainus, I'd be more inclined to possibly listen to you if you communicated with more than 16x16 icons underneath my posts.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36805048]
I talk in what I know. I don't know about third world countries, because I don't know them and don't live in them. Besides, that's like taking a step backwards in time. I'm talking about the issues that directly affect people I know and live with.
[/QUOTE]
well uh correct if i'm wrong but this debate started because you said that doriol thinks this and doriol thinks that.
according to what you are saying, you're actually faulting doriol for being too broad? as in he shouldn't be concerned about other cultures and places in the world where misandry is a laughable concept and women are constantly suppressed?
and uh
femdom is a fantasy and a fetish relating to women. that's why it's called femdom.
but that's not what i meant when i said fetishistic view towards women. a fetish specifically means a situation or object that causes sexual arousal and the media industry fetishizes women by turning them into objects or situational creatures that exist for the sole purpose of sexual arousal.
[QUOTE=thisispain;36805236]well uh correct if i'm wrong but this debate started because you said that doriol thinks this and doriol thinks that.
according to what you are saying, you're actually faulting doriol for being too broad? as in he shouldn't be concerned about other cultures and places in the world where misandry is a laughable concept and women are constantly suppressed?
and uh
femdom is a fantasy and a fetish relating to women. that's why it's called femdom.
but that's not what i meant when i said fetishistic view towards women. a fetish specifically means a situation or object that causes sexual arousal and the media industry fetishizes women by turning them into objects or situational creatures that exist for the sole purpose of sexual arousal.[/QUOTE]
I was actually faulting dori(why are you calling him doriol) for being an asshole and claiming that men can't be discriminated against. We were talking about first world people in a first world setting, not about the planet as a whole.
I was misunderstanding you originally with the whole fetishization thing, I (almost) completely agree with you on that one.
I said that discrimination against men is inconsequential, not that men can't be discriminated against
I have no idea what this first world tangent is about
if anything, misogyny in developing countries warrants more scrutiny than misogyny in developed countries
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36805322]I was actually faulting dori(why are you calling him doriol) for being an asshole and claiming that men can't be discriminated against. We were talking about first world people in a first world setting[/QUOTE]
nah dude you were
in any case discrimination against men is circumstantial and inconsequential, that is consistent from first worlds to third worlds.
and i know him as doriol so that's his real name to me
[QUOTE=thisispain;36805367]nah dude you were
in any case discrimination against men is circumstantial and inconsequential, that is consistent from first worlds to third worlds.
and i know him as doriol so that's his real name to me[/QUOTE]
...But it's neither, and I've posted why. Things such as custody rates of males versus females show that.
I'm going to have to agree with smartass here. Both men and women are discriminated against (women much more, obviously) but, atleast in the U.S, the cause of the problem is gender roles, not misogyny or misandry. Also, why don't you guys move this over to the debate section, where we have a thread on this? it has little to do with TAA.
So females are most likely to get custody than males.
Women are less likely to own property, have jobs, have an education, not be raped, not be beaten to a pulp... well anything really.
There is no comparison to the institutional worldwide fact of misogyny and the myth of widespread "misandry".
[QUOTE=person11;36805443]So females are most likely to get custody than males.
Women are less likely to own property, have jobs, have an education, not be raped, not be beaten to a pulp... well anything really.
There is no comparison to the institutional worldwide fact of misogyny and the myth of widespread "misandry".[/QUOTE]
[citation needed]
[QUOTE=person11;36805443]So females are most likely to get custody than males.
Women are less likely to own property, have jobs, have an education, not be raped, not be beaten to a pulp... well anything really.
There is no comparison to the institutional worldwide fact of misogyny and the myth of widespread "misandry".[/QUOTE]
we're not saying misandry is worse than misogyny, or even comes close to it. We are saying they are both big problems, and you just can't ignore misandry.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36805450][citation needed][/QUOTE]
Do I also need to cite that the sky is blue?
The terrible position of women in society in the world is obvious and in plain sight, so I'll not cite anything.
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36805385]Things such as custody rates of males versus females show that.[/QUOTE]
okay well why don't you source these custody rates.
because you're gonna have to prove as to misandry being the reason why males get less custody instead of males simply not seeking custody.
[url]http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm[/url]
[quote]We began our investigation of child custody aware of a common perception that there is a bias in favor of women in these decisions. Our research contradicted this perception. Although mothers more frequently get primary physical custody of children following divorce, this practice does not reflect bias but rather the agreement of the parties and the fact that, in most families, mothers have been the primary [*748] caretakers of children. Fathers who actively seek custody obtain either primary or joint physical custody over 70% of the time. Reports indicate, however, that in some cases perceptions of gender bias may discourage fathers from seeking custody and stereotypes about fathers may sometimes affect case outcomes. In general, our evidence suggests that the courts hold higher standards for mothers than fathers in custody determinations.[/quote]
see that 70% of the time?
now Massachusetts is not the whole world, but it is actual data.
[editline]16th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;36805394]but, atleast in the U.S, the cause of the problem is gender roles, not misogyny or misandry.[/QUOTE]
how do gender roles come into existence?
[QUOTE=thisispain;36805498]okay well why don't you source these custody rates.
because you're gonna have to prove as to misandry being the reason why males get less custody instead of males simply not seeking custody.
[url]http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm[/url]
see that 70% of the time?
now Massachusetts is not the whole world, but it is actual data.
[editline]16th July 2012[/editline]
how do gender roles come into existence?[/QUOTE]
wow. Men lose custody not because the courts are biased, but because they believe the courts are biased. weird.
[editline]16th July 2012[/editline]
The idea of gender roles are passed down from one generation to another. Very similar to other beliefs, like religion.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;36805456]we're not saying misandry is worse than misogyny, or even comes close to it. We are saying they are both big problems, and you just can't ignore misandry.[/QUOTE]
Men can definitely be victims of the most minor annoyances while the livelihoods of non male people are eroded by institutional sexism.
There is no comparison between the problems of misandry and misogyny. There is a deep imbalance in society, and trying to solve the problems of the powerful and privileged will not restore that balance.
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;36805394]I'm going to have to agree with smartass here. Both men and women are discriminated against (women much more, obviously) but, atleast in the U.S, the cause of the problem is gender roles, not misogyny or misandry. Also, why don't you guys move this over to the debate section, where we have a thread on this? it has little to do with TAA.[/QUOTE]
female gender roles are almost entirely misogynist. I can't think of a single male gender role which can be considered misandrist
[QUOTE=person11;36805561]Men can definitely be victims of the most minor annoyances while the livelihoods of non male people are eroded by institutional sexism.
There is no comparison between the problems of misandry and misogyny. There is a deep imbalance in society, and trying to solve the problems of the powerful and privileged will not restore that balance.[/QUOTE]
okay, which society are you talking about? I know in some countries misogyny is really bad, but in America atleast, it has mostly gone away. It's still a bigger problem than misandry, but it's no "deep imbalance", and men are not the "powerful and privileged". And misandry can go past "minor annoyance".
[QUOTE=The Kakistocrat;36805522]
The idea of gender roles are passed down from one generation to another. Very similar to other beliefs, like religion.[/QUOTE]
i didn't ask how they got continued, i asked how they got started!
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