[QUOTE=Rusty100;50648909]they created the key > crate system in csgo. which is literally gambling and completely unethical being where it is. they should be held accountable for that. they need remove the ability to spend real money on keys and to make cosmetic items totally untradable[/QUOTE]
I'm not entirely sure I agree on this point actually, but I've always had a care-free attitude towards microtransactions like this in games. Cigarettes and casinos are addictive as fuck, and those companies also cater to addictive personalities. But it's still their freedom for the customers to do as they please. Valve has a shitty exploitative system but I don't really agree that there should be legal ramifications there. It is gambling, but it's still the company's freedom to enact that as long as they're obeying all applicable laws and the consumer's freedom to choose to use it. But I guess that's what this lawsuit is about so we'll see.
If you're talking about boycotts and shit though when you say they should be held accountable, sure, go for it. That's also your freedom.
(Though tobacco companies also do really shady shit like suing the shit out of poor third world countries that try to run anti-smoking campaigns so I'm not sure the metaphor is 100% applicable, because as far as I know Valve doesn't do things like that.)
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;50648942]you can't call it "literally gambling" when it's not a literal definition of gambling, especially when talking about the law (which is very stringent about the literalness of words.) that's the thing about gambling, it's all based on dancing around the rules. you're not putting money in for more money, you're putting "chips" in for "more or less chips" (and then exchanging them for money.) In CS:GO's case, it's putting real money into digital credit, then that digital credit into a key (the only real transaction between consumer and valve, and the only transaction valve can be held accountable for,) and then the key into crate, to get a digital item out. what the end user does with that item is held accountable for it. i, for instance, don't trade away my items for cash except the occasional steam credit when i'm bored of my skins and want some extra cents towards a cheap game.
if it was a system where you could directly, through valve, exchange the skins for cold, hard cash (not for "the steam wallet") valve would be held accountable and it would be actual gambling. but in this case, Valve is held accountable for the system in the same way a casino is held accountable for gambling, in which case it's not illegal. again, not really moral, but not illegal either. this case has no grounds.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say it was illegal gambling. I said it WAS gambling, which it is, in the same way a casino does it, or more similarly, it's like a lottery. It's all gambling in one shape or form. Whether or not it falls under the legal definition of illegal gambling is not my argument. I'm saying that when you buy a key from valve, you are placing a gamble. The outcome is uncertain, it could be valuable or it could not. The avenue in which it is implemented, in a video game played by a huge amount of children, is unethical and immoral. Yes, iPad games for kids with microtransactions is also immoral, but it's not gambling.
This is like that. But it IS gambling too. It is not okay, no matter what legal definition it falls under. And it just paves the way for sites like CSGO Lotto to abuse it (even more than valve already was). They should be held accountable for letting it happen. They should have considered the consequences of their system (their system that is gambling).
[editline]5th July 2016[/editline]
Just remember, e-gambling is still a very new thing compared to traditional gambling. Especially in video games. Just because there aren't as many rules and regulations yet doesn't mean there shouldn't be.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50648959]Just remember, e-gambling is still a very new thing compared to traditional gambling. Especially in video games. Just because there aren't as many rules and regulations yet doesn't mean there shouldn't be.[/QUOTE]
That's a good point. Then I guess this case will set an important precedent.
They created a system whereby 'abusing' it becomes very profitable for them. Think about that.
I'm so fucking happy I never got into gambling while I still played CS:GO, I did waste maybe 100 bucks on cases and shit but never the gambling sites. Actually just fuck CS:GO and what it has become.
[QUOTE=Treznor;50648974]I'm so fucking happy I never got into gambling while I still played CS:GO, I did waste maybe 100 bucks on cases and shit but never the gambling sites. Actually just fuck CS:GO and what it has become.[/QUOTE]
What? what do you mean you never got into gambling?
Just join my new site: howtoscamyourkids.com in which you will get lotsa of money, GOD DAMN IT there's MONEY!!!
btw I didn't make that site my evil twin brother did it lol
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50648959]I didn't say it was illegal gambling. I said it WAS gambling, which it is, in the same way a casino does it, or more similarly, it's like a lottery. It's all gambling in one shape or form. Whether or not it falls under the legal definition of illegal gambling is not my argument. I'm saying that when you buy a key from valve, you are placing a gamble. The outcome is uncertain, it could be valuable or it could not. The avenue in which it is implemented, in a video game played by a huge amount of children, is unethical and immoral. Yes, iPad games for kids with microtransactions is also immoral, but it's not gambling.
This is like that. But it IS gambling too. It is not okay, no matter what legal definition it falls under. And it just paves the way for sites like CSGO Lotto to abuse it (even more than valve already was). They should be held accountable for letting it happen. They should have considered the consequences of their system (their system that is gambling).
[editline]5th July 2016[/editline]
Just remember, e-gambling is still a very new thing compared to traditional gambling. Especially in video games. Just because there aren't as many rules and regulations yet doesn't mean there shouldn't be.[/QUOTE]
okay, i see where you're coming from. thanks for explaining further. however, i'd still wager to say that it's not gambling, because the value you assign to the item is completely by your own choice. though i guess if we're going to move away from legalities and start talking about logistics and morals, you're correct, as valve does assign a value through the in-game stores. however, this is only applicable to TF2. CS:GO does not have an in-game store, and the only real prices for items are defined by the community (which again, is not a "real" currency.) unless valve plays with the economy's pricing on items (which i will just go ahead and doubt as not to get into conspiracy territory,) they have no real control on what shit will be more expensive. they can only metagame the system and give items more rarity vs. others.
when i'm talking about accountability, I'm only referring to the legal accountability and the legitimacy of this lawsuit (which honest to god is a waste of fucking time and money that you could be spending going after the real assholes in this situation that got us in this mess in the first place.) but in terms of moral accountability, oh of fucking course valve is in the wrong. they've created an awful system and have done nothing to fix it. and yeah, unboxing is gambling, plain and simple, and it's wrong. but no crimes have been committed, other than crimes against decency and common sense.
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;50648989]okay, i see where you're coming from. thanks for explaining further. however, i'd still wager to say that it's not gambling, because the value you assign to the item is completely by your own choice. though i guess if we're going to move away from legalities and start talking about logistics and morals, you're correct, as valve does assign a value through the in-game stores. however, this is only applicable to TF2. CS:GO does not have an in-game store, and the only real prices for items are defined by the community[/QUOTE]
you can't just pretend csgo exists in a vacuum where there's no community
there IS a community. valve has made some drops rarer than others - this determines their real community value. they know what they were doing.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;50649001]you can't just pretend csgo exists in a vacuum where there's no community
there IS a community. valve has made some drops rarer than others - this determines their real community value. they know what they were doing.[/QUOTE]
you're still right. I think we're just trying to fight two different fights here, with similar goals in mind. I think valve should be morally objected to and people should fight against this via boycott and protest. and it should set a precedent for how we go forward with online gambling and the laws surrounding it. But I also believe that valve shouldn't be the target of a lawsuit, because lawsuits don't really set laws or precedents other than ones which go to the supreme court, and any precedent coming from this lawsuit winning would basically kill the gambling industry (which i mean, would be totally fucking cool cause gambling as a whole is one of the worst industries out there,) but killing the gambling industry would also most likely cause a ripple effect on our economy in the negative, however I don't have much sourcing to back this up. either way, Valve aren't the ones committing the crimes here, [I][U]other than the ones not covered by legal jurisdiction, just the shitty immoral things.[/U][/I]
i get where you're coming from man, really, and I'm more or less agreeing with you. but I'd like to reeaallly make the point that this specific lawsuit is a waste of time and money that could be used to go against assholes like prosyndicate. i'm hoping VG Attorney goes after those guys since they're the ones who really need time behind bars or millions and millions of dollars in fees.
Once this shit all blows over people won't look at the microtransaction systems used in TF2, CS:GO, or countless other games with a similar system the same way again and for good reason.
It's surprising it took only four years for people to realize the major repercussions of Valve's system, and the same amount of time for those who hopped on the gambling site bandwagon when it could've happened much earlier.
[video=youtube;RuzenNRg9lA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuzenNRg9lA[/video]
Down and To the Right
Indicates: Internal Dialog (Ai)
This is the direction of someone eyes as they "talk to themselves".
[IMG]http://www.blifaloo.com/images/ai_eyes2.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/pQQkg/3719aace15.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/pQQlw/872de5886f.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/pQQnZ/c643815383.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/pQQqx/e77bc09e1a.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/pQQoF/d26f115573.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://puu.sh/pQQpZ/c2c1f8ec5b.jpg[/IMG]
His body language so clearly shows that he was lying.
[QUOTE=dimitrik129;50647263]
Heres some more shit:
[IMG]http://puu.sh/pQAhj/e7e8f6c216.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
so exploiting and cheating people with a gambling addiction is a "hard work ethic"
what a huge cunt, hope he gets bit right in the ass
[QUOTE]"Every single game that I've ever played has been 100% real I cross my heart and hope to die, I swear to God on Cooper's life"
[points camera at his dog][/QUOTE]
Legit piece of shit
[QUOTE=Gamerman12;50648989]okay, i see where you're coming from. thanks for explaining further. however, i'd still wager to say that it's not gambling, because the value you assign to the item is completely by your own choice. though i guess if we're going to move away from legalities and start talking about logistics and morals, you're correct, as valve does assign a value through the in-game stores. however, this is only applicable to TF2. CS:GO does not have an in-game store, and the only real prices for items are defined by the community (which again, is not a "real" currency.) unless valve plays with the economy's pricing on items (which i will just go ahead and doubt as not to get into conspiracy territory,) they have no real control on what shit will be more expensive. they can only metagame the system and give items more rarity vs. others.[/QUOTE]
The same is true of anything in a free market economy though. One kilogram of gold doesn't have an intrinsic value other than what's defined by the market. Heck the same can be said of currency itself.
Valve doesn't directly set the prices but that doesn't mean they can act like items don't have real value on the market.
Later today via Gabe Newell:
Hello Valve fans.
We are mistaken, and we are at fault for the drama that has transpired with the CSGO community. Today we are releasing a trailer for Half Life 3 there you go guys do u forgive us
Imagine a world without the biggest cancer in videogames. That would have been nice.
If Valve just removes the ability to mess with inventories through the Steam API, wouldn't that kill all gambling sites in one fell swoop?
[QUOTE=Dr. Kyuros;50648550]Had the [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Mann-Conomy_Update"]Mann-Conomy Update[/URL] been kept in the bin all of this would've never of happened.
All the blame for this now popped boil can be put on [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanis_Varoufakis"]this guy.[/URL][/QUOTE]
He joined Valve 2 years after Mann-Conomy, so the initial blame shouldn't be put on him. Otherwise agreed, that's where it all started.
[QUOTE=CommanderPT;50649748]If Valve just removes the ability to mess with inventories through the Steam API, wouldn't that kill all gambling sites in one fell swoop?[/QUOTE]
Yes, but it would also kill any economy in their games
[QUOTE=Richy19;50649930]Yes, but it would also kill any economy in their games[/QUOTE]
Sooo, what's the drawback?
[QUOTE=Damjen;50649971]Sooo, what's the drawback?[/QUOTE]
the drawback is that they won't do it
This situation and the whole CSGO gambling scene is one of the reasons why I won't be playing CSGO for a while. I honestly don't get why some people would do this kind of shit.
[QUOTE=Richy19;50649930]Yes, but it would also kill any economy in their games[/QUOTE]
how? trading doesnt give them jack shit for money. the market does. the market will still be used a lot.
[QUOTE=Naught;50650040]how? trading doesnt give them jack shit for money. the market does. the market will still be used a lot.[/QUOTE]
But if the trading doesn't work, neither will the market.
[QUOTE=Naught;50650040]how? trading doesnt give them jack shit for money. the market does. the market will still be used a lot.[/QUOTE]
i don't think most of these sites use the market for this because you only get steam funbux
[QUOTE=Naught;50650040]how? trading doesnt give them jack shit for money. the market does. the market will still be used a lot.[/QUOTE]
the trading drives the market. if you couldn't buy and trade stock then the stock market wouldn't work
wow, all the people that attacked TB for his cancer on his comment on the Psi video. I feel real bad for the guy.
[QUOTE=Naught;50650040]how? trading doesnt give them jack shit for money. the market does. the market will still be used a lot.[/QUOTE]
The market is not the economy. It's just a part of it. You must remember that these economies are entirely virtual and driven by perceived value.
Users are what build and destroy that value by interacting with each other in various ways: trading, gambling, playing, buying, selling, creating, hyping, drama, scandals, theft, etc.. Just because it's not a direct sale on the market doesn't mean Valve will not benefit or suffer from it.
[QUOTE=Wii60;50643341]i think reddit found out this vid exists
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/bKH5FKC.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
thats even with r/games and r/gaming removing it
[QUOTE=Richy19;50649930]Yes, but it would also kill any economy in their games[/QUOTE]
not really, it would only kills bots and stuff
and it would only wound, not kill the gambling, and unfortunately make it a lot less safe
tf2 has "spycrabbing" which isnt done with a bot, and it relies on trust
can't see how valve could fix these issues without locking down the system even more than it is already
[QUOTE=Untouch;50650153]not really, it would only kills bots and stuff
and it would only wound, not kill the gambling, and unfortunately make it a lot less safe
tf2 has "spycrabbing" which isnt done with a bot, and it relies on trust
can't see how valve could fix these issues without locking down the system even more than it is already[/QUOTE]
I've seen the idea of outright killing bots thrown around and I really hope they don't do it, there's legit sites that make use of them and it would suck to lose them.
I use TF2WH and stuff like that to get items I want because I don't want to spend a million hours trading with elitist assholes on trading sites to get items I want.
Couldn't they just you know, hire people to be in charge of all this? Have them check the sites that use the API, blacklist the ones that are gambling scams or whatever, and stuff like that. Iunno.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
