Sure, but Wizards didn't set up and host the main marketplace that determines the value of their cards. That's probably the biggest difference between the two. In MtG's case everything is done by various third parties that will sell the same exact card in the same condition at different amounts.
[QUOTE=Makol;50659837]Sure, but Wizards didn't set up and host the main marketplace that determines the value of their cards. That's probably the biggest difference between the two. In MtG's case everything is done by various third parties that will sell the same exact card in the same condition at different amounts.[/QUOTE]
You can sell CS:GO items for whatever you want, same as MtG cards. But buyers and sellers don't like getting ripped off, so generally you're going to be buying and selling at market price. Same as with MtG cards.
If someone is selling a mint foil Tarmagoyf for 100$ on TCGplayer, no one is going to buy yours for 200$. And if mint foil Tarmagoyfs are going for 300$, you aren't going to want to sell one for 200$.
And while Valve is arguably making more money than Wizards, I don't see why that matters. They both profit off of the market, whether they're the ones facilitating the market or not doesn't seem relevant to me.
You're missing the point of what I'm saying. You seem to be focusing on who is making money and how. I'm talking about how you can't really compare virtual skins that give absolutely no game changing values to a TCG where you can get something that does in fact impact your deck in your format of choice. I've gotten a ton of cards that according to community based market are worthless but I can make them work in my commander, pauper, and kitchen table decks. A stupid skin that makes my AK47 red does jack shit to my gameplay experience. Skins have zero value and shouldn't even have marketplace to begin with.
Games like Halo 5 have booster packs now but they range from items that cosmetic that do not have a gameplay impact to items you can use in two game modes that do I've an impact on the gameplay.
[QUOTE=Makol;50660008]You're missing the point of what I'm saying. You seem to be focusing on who is making money and how. I'm talking about how you can't really compare virtual skins that give absolutely no game changing values to a TCG where you can get something that does in fact impact your deck in your format in choice. I've gotten a ton of cards that according to community based market are worthless but I can make them work in my commander, pauper, and kitchen table decks. A stupid skin that makes my AK47 red does jack shit to my gameplay experience. Skins have zero value and shouldn't even have marketplace to begin with.
Games like Halo 5 have booster packs now but they range from items that cosmetic that DMR have a gameplay impact to items you can use I two game modes that do I've an impact on the gameplay.[/QUOTE]
okay so random drops are okay in MtG because you literally need certain cards to play the game competitively in certain formats
but they're bad in CS:GO because they're utterly inconsequential?
I want to reiterate, value is not something Valve assigns to skins. Value is determined by what people are willing to pay for them. Skins don't have value because Valve said so, they have value because people want them. Don't blame Valve because people with more money than sense want to drop 10,000 on a banana colored knife.
I'll blame Valve all I want considering how the way they're handling the marketplace is allowing for these stupid gambling sites to even exist. I don't see people gambling their Magic cards online on shady website.
[editline]6th July 2016[/editline]
If such websites exist for MtG please show me one.
[QUOTE=Makol;50660076]I'll blame Valve all I want considering how the way they're handling the marketplace is allowing for these stupid gambling sites to even exist. I don't see people gambling their Magic cards online on shady website.
[editline]6th July 2016[/editline]
If such websites exist for MtG please show me one.[/QUOTE]
If you are gonna blame valve blame them for actual things that matter. Like handing the API willy nilly and letting shady sites stay open.
You literally just posted that you would be alright with actual gameplay changing weapons and items locked behind RNG paywalls but not with cosmetic items, I mean, after saying that I don't know how much your opinion even matters.
The house always wins. Not sure why people would think a csgo skin gambling site would be any different?
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;50659416]Valve has openly stated before that they are aware of children playing their video games, as most companies design video games with children in mind. If you actually look at some of their books regarding development of games like Half Life 1 and such, it becomes evident that they originally intended on designing monsters that 14 year olds would find funny. [/QUOTE]
The only book I know of that gets close to that is in Raising the Bar. The context is an interview session for a concept artist who assumes that the game is targeted towards 14 year olds and his designs prey on their fears, not make them laugh. Nowhere have I seen Valve state that their games are intended for children, bar Portal 2 which they made a program for use in schools.
[QUOTE]
It really doesn't matter that Valve's ToS is saying that they are against users of a certain age group playing their game. As a company, they need those users as the current base of adult users is far, far smaller then the children and young teenager base.[/QUOTE]
So, they have to go against their own ToS in order to fulfill their own needs? I don't see the connection here. Besides, adults are the ones with the disposable income which puts them in the majority as far as income goes.
[QUOTE]
Easy. All you have to do is purchase TF2 keys or CSGO keys, and trade them for items that other players don't want, such as game keys and such. Once you get the videogame keys, you can sell them off on EBay or other websites, and make practically full profit for said games from those prices. Valve's part in this system is the purchase of the keys for their videogames, and the purchase of CD Keys through the Steam Store, as they take undisclosed amounts of money for each game purchased on said marketplace as part of their deals with videogame companies.
Valve is always involved in this system, because no matter what, they are hosting the platforms which make these gambling sites and transaction of virtual items, ya know... Possible.[/QUOTE]
That's like saying the US Government makes gambling possible because at some point their currency has been used in gambling and then they take taxes on that money.
Valve has no official channels to convert from virtual item to real world cash. Such methods are entirely orchestrated by users--users are the ones that give items real world value, not Valve. To completely stop users selling items, they'd have to remove Steam entirely. Trading wouldn't be enough because users can exchange Steam accounts which contain these games and items. Such a request is unreasonable.
[QUOTE]
They are a game developer who is trying to appease the largest demographic in the consumer market. That happens to usually be teenagers aged 13 to 18. Most laws do not openly prohibit children from playing the video games, they only make it so parents must purchase the video games and that any purchases inside said video games are done with the parents or authorized by said parents.
As stated in my last quote, Valve is always involved in this market.
[/QUOTE]
I don't understand how this addresses how Valve is 'promoting' gambling. Just because something is using their market doesn't mean they're promoting it.
[QUOTE]
Gambling is fairly fucked. It's a vice like any other vice, but the problem here is that it is unregulated and surfs the gray line to the extreme, and no one is willingly putting out lawsuits to enforce the already existing laws in the world. Valve right now is aiding and constructing systems which openly flip the middle finger to almost all gambling regulations currently in play around the world. It's the same shitty loopholes used by Fantasy Football sites, online Poker, championships for certain flash games, ect. It's all gambling and most of it doesn't get touched by federal or state taxes, as most companies operating for these things attempt to loophole the laws in order to avoid casino and gambling licenses.[/QUOTE]
Nobody is going to dispute that it's wasteful to gamble. The real question is, what regulations do you enforce? These gambling sites are hosted EVERYWHERE in the world, especially places with lax gambling laws.
And here's another thing to consider: remember prohibition? Same thing will happen with gambling. Users like it, users will continue to do it, users will keep gambling sites from disappearing. Right now, Valve can keep an eye on things. If they start trying to stamp it out, all the gambling will run off and hide where they can't see what's happening. As you said, people will find all sorts of loopholes to keep it going. There is no way Valve can stop gambling that uses Steam as a platform short of completely shutting down Steam.
[QUOTE=Makol;50660076]I'll blame Valve all I want considering how the way they're handling the marketplace is allowing for these stupid gambling sites to even exist. I don't see people gambling their Magic cards online on shady website.
[editline]6th July 2016[/editline]
If such websites exist for MtG please show me one.[/QUOTE]
my point is that the crate system is no more or less immoral than TCG booster packs
I'm not commenting on the gambling thing at all. I don't really have a strong opinion on it at the moment.
[QUOTE=Dr.Scrake;50660109]If you are gonna blame valve blame them for actual things that matter. Like handing the API willy nilly and letting shady sites stay open.
You literally just posted that you would be alright with actual gameplay changing weapons and items locked behind RNG paywalls but not with cosmetic items, I mean, after saying that I don't know how much your opinion even matters.[/QUOTE]
I don't recall people screaming about TF2 doing it. And with how Halo 5 does it you don't even have to pay a dime, and it doesn't affect the competitive playlists.
[editline]6th July 2016[/editline]
And yes, that is the main reason why I'm blaming them. They're allowing these sites to use their API. If they didn't this would have never been an issue.
[editline]6th July 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50660137]my point is that the crate system is no more or less immoral than TCG booster packs
I'm not commenting on the gambling thing at all. I don't really have a strong opinion on it at the moment.[/QUOTE]
Before all this I didn't care about the skin stuff. But seeing how Valve is allowing these websites access to their API for gambling I'm against them. If I saw a website using shady business practice to lure people/children into gambling using a product I made I'd temporarily pull the plug by making the item nontradable and rethink things, or at least blacklist the gambling sites from using the API.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50660137]my point is that the crate system is no more or less immoral than TCG booster packs
I'm not commenting on the gambling thing at all. I don't really have a strong opinion on it at the moment.[/QUOTE]
I'd say any gambling system is shit. tcg and crate systems are both shit. tcg is even worse because its required that you use it to play.
[QUOTE=Makol;50660201]I don't recall people screaming about TF2 doing it. And with how Halo 5 does it you don't even have to pay a dime, and it doesn't affect the competitive playlists.
[editline]6th July 2016[/editline]
And yes, that is the main reason why I'm blaming them. They're allowing these sites to use their API. If they didn't this would have never been an issue.
[/QUOTE]
so we should restrict all fanmade sites (what about sites like the former garrysmod.org where it used the api to verify you had the game because you could download content for it) to have to apply to use the API? all that's going to do is stop people using the api and relying more on dodgy bot steam accounts or middlemen, it might make the procedure to gamble harder but if we can learn anything about prohibition or the war on drugs is that if people want to do something, they'll fuckin do it.
all you're doing is making it so the people with problems like substance or gambling addictions hide it and use dodgier means to access because of the taboo associated with it instead of allowing them to feel free to get help/
FIY: I don't like gambling, I have family members with gambling problems and think it's pretty horrendous.
[QUOTE=MrBunneh;50660599]so we should restrict all fanmade sites (what about sites like the former garrysmod.org where it used the api to verify you had the game because you could download content for it) to have to apply to use the API? all that's going to do is stop people using the api and relying more on dodgy bot steam accounts or middlemen, it might make the procedure to gamble harder but if we can learn anything about prohibition or the war on drugs is that if people want to do something, they'll fuckin do it.
all you're doing is making it so the people with problems like substance or gambling addictions hide it and use dodgier means to access because of the taboo associated with it instead of allowing them to feel free to get help/
FIY: I don't like gambling, I have family members with gambling problems and think it's pretty horrendous.[/QUOTE]
You can restrict specific domains from accessing the api. It would cripple the gambling scene and force them to change domains every time. Does steam api require an api key? If it does, it becomes even easier to revoke keys for certain sites.
[QUOTE=MrBunneh;50660599]so we should restrict all fanmade sites (what about sites like the former garrysmod.org where it used the api to verify you had the game because you could download content for it) to have to apply to use the API? all that's going to do is stop people using the api and relying more on dodgy bot steam accounts or middlemen, it might make the procedure to gamble harder but if we can learn anything about prohibition or the war on drugs is that if people want to do something, they'll fuckin do it.
all you're doing is making it so the people with problems like substance or gambling addictions hide it and use dodgier means to access because of the taboo associated with it instead of allowing them to feel free to get help/
FIY: I don't like gambling, I have family members with gambling problems and think it's pretty horrendous.[/QUOTE]
I didn't say that at all? Reread the entire post. I said either make the items nontradable until something is figured out or blacklist the gambling sites. No where did I say to block or restrict fan made sites, and these gambling sites are clearly don't qualify as fan sites.
Haha why a reupload? He removed it? :v:
[editline]7th July 2016[/editline]
Oh wow, he did!
[QUOTE=Tacooo;50650322]TB's response to one of them "coming clean":
[img]http://i.imgur.com/qEhHKRk.png[/img][/QUOTE]
Can I have a link to the comment?
[QUOTE=Saturn V;50662362]Can I have a link to the comment?[/QUOTE]
don't have the link but it's on psisyndicates exposed video on himself
[video=youtube;ik_lidnjkrM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ik_lidnjkrM[/video]
the rabbit hole might as well be the batcave at this point
[QUOTE=Naught;50658345]the whole 'marketed for kids' part isnt really a big part in this. people ive seen keep stressing this, but I can bet that most people who watch these videos are of age who are just down on their luck or play the game a lot and have skins they can gamble. people who look up to these youtubers and trust what they say, because they've watched them for so long.[/QUOTE]
I think the fact that CSGO Lotto stated in their rules that you had to be [B]13[/B] to gamble on their site and not 18 is a pretty big deal.
[QUOTE=Snapster;50658742]Tmartn's response.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjyGQV2i9eU[/media][/QUOTE]
He deleted it already...IT'S BEEN A DAY.
What a spineless twat
Seems like Tmartn is the only one making a fool of himself. The other guys involved seemed to be staying relatively quiet compared to him. I also heard something about Faze doing something similar with a website one of their members own?
His sympathy vats are running extremely empty, I give it a week until he starts saying hes being attacked and that it's all X's fault and that hes quitting youtube.
[QUOTE=Wii60;50661131]mirror
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smLaCRvGsDA[/media][/QUOTE]
Look at those soulless eyes
I like that he recorded it in the lobby of his mansion.
Must be nice.
[QUOTE=Smoot;50664506]I like that he recorded it in the lobby of his mansion.
Must be nice.[/QUOTE]
yeah lmao walking around his huge fucking luxury house that children helped pay for while trying to win sympathy points and hugging his dog like "look guys im human too"
the best part is that he deleted it after, i bet if he just left it up the backlash from his real fanbase wouldnt be as huge
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;50651299]also stop fucking defending valve
first of all, no valve did not create or encourage for 3rd party betting or lottery systems to come out of skin purchasing, it was all about trade but people saw a bigger market in this with the skins system
HOWEVER Valve does put a pricetag on these items, the price tag being really the dispensing of skins and at the same time created an avenue for you to get these skins
you buy a key that grants you the ability to open a crate that has an item which is either super rare or shitty and you're more than likely to get the shitty skin
why? because it's a fucking slot machine, it has an algorithm and if today's the day then today's the day
there's no skill behind it, there's nothing preventing you from accessing this feature, and like shit will valve suggest you have a gambling addiction if you make over 5 key purchases in a sitting
each new campaign they release has a special case with special skins to go along with it and you only need to dispense $2.49 to access it
IT'S NOT DIFFERENT to having a slot machine that says "$2.49/spin to play me", this shit needs to be regulated and valve knew very well what they were doing
[editline]6th July 2016[/editline]
you can literally hear the keyboards typing out of the United Kingdom's government office telling them to comply with regulations or they'll call their buddies in the states to give them a helping hand[/QUOTE]
Valve doesn't put a pricetag on the skins, the players do. Valve just says it's $2.50 to buy one.
About the keys, okay. You can call it slots, it certainly looks like it and plays like it. But there are so many other examples of the same thing. All of which has potential value from rarity. Some examples are the 25 cent gachapons, those mystery POP dolls, and even other games that have this same problem (just not at such a large scale).
Yes, it's a market that needs to be regulated. Though I don't see how Valve is at fault because there weren't any regulations already in place.
-These are not the first gambling sites to ever use virtual items with no regulation of age.
-The players give the skins their value, not Valve.
-The market needs to be regulated.
-The sites themselves are currently not illegal. (Arguable depending on which site and country I'm sure)
Now I wouldn't say Valve has nothing to do with it in the grand scheme of things. They clearly knew what they were doing once the skins started to pick up in price, but everyone is blaming them just because they don't know who else to blame.
I want to know some solid solutions people have for Valve to stop this. Instead of just saying "Don't let them use the API" since these sites would still exist with or without Valve's API.
[QUOTE=TreasoN.avi;50665538]Valve doesn't put a pricetag on the skins, the players do. Valve just says it's $2.50 to buy one.
About the keys, okay. You can call it slots, it certainly looks like it and plays like it. But there are so many other examples of the same thing. All of which has potential value from rarity. Some examples are the 25 cent gachapons, those mystery POP dolls, and even other games that have this same problem (just not at such a large scale).
Yes, it's a market that needs to be regulated. Though I don't see how Valve is at fault because there weren't any regulations already in place.
-These are not the first gambling sites to ever use virtual items with no regulation of age.
-The players give the skins their value, not Valve.
-The market needs to be regulated.
-The sites themselves are currently not illegal. (Arguable depending on which site and country I'm sure)
Now I wouldn't say Valve has nothing to do with it in the grand scheme of things. They clearly knew what they were doing once the skins started to pick up in price, but everyone is blaming them just because they don't know who else to blame.
I want to know some solid solutions people have for Valve to stop this. Instead of just saying "Don't let them use the API" since these sites would still exist with or without Valve's API.[/QUOTE]
valve does put an impromptu pricetag on skins because of rarity. if the rarity of knives, for instance, were the same as anything else, they wouldn't be nearly as expensive. but because of the rarities they put on everything, yes, they do make a ballpark pricetag on items, because they're making it so you have to open 100+ cases to get a knife in the first place (aka 250+ dollars) on average. valve is at fault because there arent any regulations in place, because they need to be putting in those regulations instead of sitting on their asses not doing anything whatsoever to combat this cancer growing in the community.
And so it begins, [url]http://www.polygon.com/2016/7/7/12116902/csgo-lotto-and-owners-sued-over-illegal-gambling-allegations[/url] only article I could find on this was Polygon.
Martin needs more dogs asap
[QUOTE=Naught;50666034]valve does put an impromptu pricetag on skins because of rarity. if the rarity of knives, for instance, were the same as anything else, they wouldn't be nearly as expensive. but because of the rarities they put on everything, yes, they do make a ballpark pricetag on items, because they're making it so you have to open 100+ cases to get a knife in the first place (aka 250+ dollars) on average. valve is at fault because there arent any regulations in place, because they need to be putting in those regulations instead of sitting on their asses not doing anything whatsoever to combat this cancer growing in the community.[/QUOTE]
Where did you get this impromptu pricetag idea from? I've never seen evidence of Valve ballparking value of their virtual items. Yes, they have control over rarity. Rarity is essential to the existence of virtual economies. If everything was commonplace, the items would hold no value. What should determine rarity?
I see people saying that Valve should add regulations. What should these regulations be? What exactly do you want these regulations to accomplish? How will they enforce these regulations?
'Combat cancer' is incredibly vague and will take on many different meanings depending on who you ask. They can just say 'no more cancer allowed', but that won't do much at all.
How will they get rid of cancer? How do you determine if something is cancer? How many different types of cancer are there? How should each type be dealt with? How do you keep that cancer from coming back? How do you minimize impact to what is not cancer? How much will it cost to combat the cancer?
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