I would just really like if the overall weapons got polished up so that they look realistic (not realistic in terms of art style and graphics, realistic as in functionality of the weapon model) instead of looking static.
The pistol doesn't even eject shells in it's current state IIRC, and the hammer doesn't move at all. As we saw in the video, the syringe gun's syringes spun in the world model when shooting in the 2007 version but it's just static now. There are a bunch of other problems with the weapons in its current state.
One thing that is already polished is the Sniper Rifle and Rocket Launcher. The Sniper Rifle's shells eject out of the weapon in the correct spot, and the spot opens up when shells eject out of it. The Rocket Launcher's reload animation looks fine and it doesn't clip, and the movable parts on the weapon (like the sights) move.
I'm not sure how c_models actually make the game better optimized, since with c_models you have to load every weapon at viewmodel levels of detail on the world. Also in the viewmodel, it's rendering the whole weapon.
In the v_model and w_model system, you're loading lower quality weapon models in the world and you're loading 1 high quality weapon in the viewmodel. In the v_model, not the whole gun is rendered. v_models only consist of the things you see, if you look at the back side of a v_model it'll just be nothing.
alright I'll try to list off problems with the models
Scout: Scattergun has no problems, pistol doesn't eject shells and the ejection port doesn't open while firing and the hammer doesn't move, bat has no problems
Soldier: Rocket Launcher has no problems aside from the sights not moving when you jump or walk, shotgun ejects shells the wrong way around and the ejection port doesn't open, shovel has no problems.
Pyro: Flame thrower model is super blocky, shotgun ejects shells the wrong way around and the ejection port doesn't open, fire axe has no problems
Demoman: When reloading the grenade launcher, he reloads the grenades into the same port for all 4 shots, there are 6 barrels instead of 4 on the grenade launcher, the barrels always show as being empty, Sticky bomb launcher ejection port doesn't open when reloading (why does it have one?), bottle doesn't break when smashing it with a critical hit.
Heavy: Minigun has no issues, shotgun ejects shells the wrong way around and the ejection port doesn't open, fists have no problems.
Engineer: Shotgun ejects shells the wrong way around (ejection port actually does open on engineer), pistol doesn't eject shells and the ejection port doesn't open while firing and the hammer doesn't move, wrench has no issues, PDA's have no problems.
Medic: No issues on all weapons aside from the syringe gun syringes not spinning in the world model while firing, and the transition between the medigun and the bonesaw being weird.
Sniper: Sniper Rifle has no problems, SMG doesn't eject shells but otherwise has no issues, Kukri has no issues.
Spy: Revolver's chamber doesn't spin while firing and the hammer doesn't pull back when firing, knife has no issues, electro sapper has no issues.
I'm guessing most of it happened after it went F2P to attract gamers with potato hardware..
[QUOTE=Keychain;52412726]anyone who denies valve simply slapping things together with very little regard for basic decent treatment of their game is very delusional. valve stopped giving a fuck about tf2's quality control a long time ago[/QUOTE]
I have thousands of hours in TF2 and struggled a lot with this program's quality over the years. Here's what I've found:
I remember playing this game on a HD4850 and an Athlon II X2 with 4 GB of RAM back in 2010 with absolutely no problems. Sure, sometimes I had a few drops (Athlon IIs were really shitty), but they weren't rampant.
Now, playing this game with a [B]manually tweaked configuration file[/B] STILL isn't enough to pull off 60+ FPS on any situation with a [B]FX-6350, a HD6850 and 8GB of RAM[/B].
Yes, it did occur to me that maybe those configs were fucking up my game. No, exclusively using the game's GUI to set video settings didn't help.
Somehow, you get a higher framerate by [I][U]setting your texture settings on High or above compared to Medium or below[/U][/I]. Whatever procedure that's compressing the textures is completely broken.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52411943]All the video shows is the graphical difference between TF2 2007 and current version, even the description points that out, no where does he share his opinion or criticize the current state of the game.[/QUOTE]
Can we stop defending Crowbcat like this?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/2MaTm2i.png[/img]
Wonder what conclusions we are supposed to draw here.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/xjRZWxF.png[/img]
Nope, this video does not demonstrate why For Honor's P2P system sucks.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/dNENgcg.png[/img]
And this video doesn't criticize Ubisoft for their graphical shenanigans at E3.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/g7UZYmD.png[/img]
Do I need to say anything about the attitude of this video?
He knows exactly what he's doing and I'm not buying any of this innocent "well he didn't SAY it was a bad thing" bullshit.
[QUOTE=Sweater;52413752]
It was honestly a poor choice of music if the point of the video was to just put the differences without "dramatizing"[/QUOTE]
This is especially prevalent when showing the the pistol's lighting changes
I pretty much stopped taking Crowbcat seriously (not that I was a fan to begin with) after he twisted Giant Bomb's VR coverage to make them seem like they hated it to fit his narrative. Sometimes he points out some stuff that deserves to be called out, but he's not above removing context to make things suit his way. That's shitty no matter how you slice it.
[QUOTE=Skyward;52414574]I pretty much stooped taking Crowbcat seriously after he twisted Giant Bomb's VR coverage to make them seem like they hated it to fit his narrative. Sometimes he points out some stuff that deserves to be called out, but he's not above removing context to make things suit his way.[/QUOTE]
He's got his misses but this video does a pretty sharp job of pointing out changes that most people would see as objectively fucking terrible, and the background behind those changes are, for a majority of them, equally fucking stupid.
Most of these aren't changes weren't made for clarity or to make way for other features, they were downgrades caused by Valve's inability to give a shit. Of course it doesn't speak for the quality of the gameplay itself [sp]even though we all know that the game took a sharp dip in that category as well and became an equally confusing clusterfuck over time[/sp] but Crowbcat's videos have for the most part been about the visual aspect, not so much about gameplay.
They're also meant for entertainment, not to dictate anyone how to feel about those games. If you feel like the changes that occurred over 10 years aren't a problem, good for you, that's your opinion.
[QUOTE=DasMatze;52410701]
I mean what are you gaining with this?
[img]http://i.imgur.com/EDh1IPR.jpg[/img]
Did they ditch the lightwarp texture? It just doesn't look right. Has the performance changed so much due to hats that you need to downgrade the original content ten years later while hardware has improved significantly? Not a rhetorical question, I'm curious.[/QUOTE]
This is what happens after ten years of not showering.
The compression of world models and viewmodels into a single c_model file was not because of peformance or engine limits, it was because Valve wanted to add weapon skins and doing that makes it a million times easier.
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52414680]The compression of world models and viewmodels into a single c_model file was not because of peformance or engine limits, it was because Valve wanted to add weapon skins and doing that makes it a million times easier.[/QUOTE]
it was happening WAY before weapon skins became a thing, though
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;52413818]Because it turns a game of rock, paper, scissors in to the kind of game children play where they keep making up different shit "I have an anti destruction shield!!" "yeah well I have an anti, anti destrution shield!" while muddling all the classes unique weaponsets[/QUOTE]
Not really. Most of the unlocks fit with the design philosophy of all of the classes, and they all have tradeoffs, and counter strategies. A soldier with the black box is still the exact same class he was before this, except now he gives up a rocket so he can get back maybe 25 - 35 health after 3 shots. A huntsman sniper is still going to be primarily aiming for key targets like Medics, and Heavies; but this comes at the cost of becoming weaker at sniper v sniper engagements.
The only really "out there" weapons would be Demo's shields, and even then you give up what is arguably the most powerful weapon in the game.
Also, somebody over in the TF2 subforum made a post about the lighting changes that I thought was interesting
[QUOTE=Snowshoe;52414022]The comparisons made in this video are largely derived from two major updates: Love & War and Gun Mettle.
Love & War brought all weapons to the c_model system. 2007 TF2 used v_models and w_models, for viewmodels and world models respectively. This let Valve have custom polished viewmodels that looked different from the actual weapon itself, such as the minigun, rocket launcher, flamethrower, etc. The downside was that v_models were harder to make and for each new weapon you had to include animations and hand models with it. Valve decided to combine the v_ and w_ models into one easy system, with c_model weapons used in both first and third person, and separate arm models that could easily be applied to any weapon without model editing. The quality of some models did suffer a lot on conversion (syringe gun losing its animation, tiny minigun, etc), but it did make weapons easier to work with (weapon replacements, custom viewmodel animations, workshop items!). c_models would also come in handy for the next update...
Gun Mettle. This is where a lot of lighting comparisons in the video come from. Since the introduction of decorated weapons, Valve changed the material files and how some weps were rendered. An entirely new lightwarp is used on the stock weapons now, which is a lot softer and none of the cartoon-y highlights that other weps have. I presume this was done as to not interfere with the stickers and skin textures, but even the non-skin weapons have been forced this change. Coupled with the extra rimlight boost and removal of phong maps, stock weapons look particularly bland now compared to what they used to be. Valve [i]did[/i] add subtle reflections to them, though.
About the prop lighting being dark, this started happening around Gun Mettle as well. From what I gather, Valve's lighting compiler (VRAD) got an update that made it bugged. Now, every time Valve updates a map, it's doomed to suffer the fate of dark props and bad vertex lighting. Look at the 2Fort bridge or the barrels in Hydro's cave rooms for the best examples. When this will be fixed I have no idea. All you can do is compile your maps with an older version of vrad.exe. This is not like when HL2 got updated to Orange Box and Valve forgot the proper compile settings; this a whole new beast, slowly infecting every TF2 map it touches. It may have to do with the new prop lighting features added to VRAD for rd_asteroid (back when Valve was updating it), but I'm not certain.
Maybe the TF Team can give an official statement on these graphics changes but I think I nailed most of the reasons.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Protocol7;52414409]He knows exactly what he's doing and I'm not buying any of this innocent "well he didn't SAY it was a bad thing" bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Good thing he has a point then.
[QUOTE=Talvy;52415354]Good thing he has a point then.[/QUOTE]
Elaborate?
[QUOTE=Annoyed Grunt;52414680]The compression of world models and viewmodels into a single c_model file was not because of peformance or engine limits, it was because Valve wanted to add weapon skins and doing that makes it a million times easier.[/QUOTE]
That happened because of optimization I'm pretty sure, still back then everyone loved the game to care about the weapons having lower detail than before.
They could easily have a console command for these kind of stuff like the high quality player models.
[QUOTE=spectator1;52416106]That happened because of optimization I'm pretty sure[/QUOTE]
It didn't. It happened because Valve wanted to make the process of adding new weapons easier since now you don't have to deal with two separate models with different needs. It was a nice idea, but I think it should have stayed the way it was before.
[QUOTE=Skyward;52414574]I pretty much stopped taking Crowbcat seriously (not that I was a fan to begin with) after he twisted Giant Bomb's VR coverage to make them seem like they hated it to fit his narrative. Sometimes he points out some stuff that deserves to be called out, but he's not above removing context to make things suit his way. That's shitty no matter how you slice it.[/QUOTE]
I was the same, but with the 'GTA IV is better than GTA V' video.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/kHCsCrF.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/lj00rg9.png[/t]
Just fuck my shit up.
I wasn't sure which was the demoman until I noticed the peg-leg, which I assume would be something only the demo would have. Who the fuk is the pyro ? I'm not even sure who's spy and who's sniper.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52417380]
I wasn't sure which was the demoman until I noticed the peg-leg,
[/quote]
thought It was junkrat for a sec
not even joking
it doesn't even feel like tf2
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52417380][t]http://i.imgur.com/kHCsCrF.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/lj00rg9.png[/t]
Just fuck my shit up.
I wasn't sure which was the demoman until I noticed the peg-leg, which I assume would be something only the demo would have. Who the fuk is the pyro ? I'm not even sure who's spy and who's sniper.[/QUOTE]
Wow i'm having a hard time recognizing the classes
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52417380][t]http://i.imgur.com/kHCsCrF.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/lj00rg9.png[/t]
Just fuck my shit up.
I wasn't sure which was the demoman until I noticed the peg-leg, which I assume would be something only the demo would have. Who the fuk is the pyro ? I'm not even sure who's spy and who's sniper.[/QUOTE]
I understand there's quite a few cosmetics that break silhouette, but is a comparison image where they have 10+ cosmetics equipped really a fair?
[QUOTE=hugthebed2;52417439]I understand there's quite a few cosmetics that break silhouette, but is a comparison image where they have 10+ cosmetics equipped really a fair?[/QUOTE]
It's meant to demonstrate the abject clusterfuck that is the cosmetics system of TF2, so yes, absolutely.
[editline]30th June 2017[/editline]
Initially the system only let you put like one tiny helmet and it worked fine because it did not disrupt the looks of the character or change their silhouette in any significant way.
Then they allowed you to stack more and more cosmetics, slowly turning each character into an increasingly disgusting mess with no cohesion and no readability.
If the game allows you to shit up this sort of combination (and that's without the unusual effects on top of it) then something went pretty fucking wrong with the cosmetics system as a whole.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52417453]It's meant to demonstrate the abject clusterfuck that is the cosmetics system of TF2, so yes, absolutely.[/QUOTE]
You can only equip three cosmetics, and cosmetics that occupy the same areas cannot be worn together. If you say "Look at how shit it looks in game" and somebody tells you "No this can't happen in game" your point is worthless.
I'd also like to point out how many of these silhouettes have been taken not only with a fuckton of items, but also with actually different weapons. Different weapons are supposed to modify the silhouette [I]on purpose[/I] since it differentiates what the classes can and cannot do.
The first silhouette is the Sniper holding the jarate. The Jarate is a replacement of the SMG, and while the SMG is simply something that shoots, the Jarate debuffs you making you receive 30% more damage. As such, the difference in silhouette is important.
The second silhouette is simply the Pyro, and if it weren't for the literal fuckton of cosmetics on it you could be able to tell even as a novice player. The Pyro is wielding the phlogistinator, which works very differently from all other flamethrowers, and its silhouette is exemplified but its tesla-coil-like, round nozzle.
Third one is the scout, fourth one is the engineer. Fifth one is the Heavy. The Heavy looks differently from its silhouette on the left because it is in his hunched position. The heavy hunches when using secondary weapon (and this has been a thing since 2007). Furthermore, the lack of arm extension, but rather the fact that the right arm is bent, signifies than the Heavy is not using the shotgun but rather the Sandvich, a replacement that gives him the ability to heal himself when he pleases, which is a pretty large difference.
Fourth one is the demoman. The silhouette is drastically different because the player is not playing demoman, but rather Demoknight, a subclass that works completely differently. This is actually pretty brilliant, simply equipping three weapons that make the class work differently gives the class a completely new silhouette, as if it was a new class! The Demoman is wielding a sword, a shield (round part around his arm) and a peg-leg, respectively replacement for his bottle, sticky launcher, and grenade launcher. The change in silhouette tells you that the demo has gone from being a midrange damage dealing glass cannon to a short range melee combatant based class.
Next one is the spy. The spy is holding the sapper, his third weapon, but is silhouette is basically the same, if not for the crap around his head.
Eight one is the Soldier. He's holding something in his right hand, a shell to be exact - the Concheror, that replaces his secondary weapon the shotgun, transforming the Soldier from a Medium range mobile combatant to somebody with area support (the concheror gives speed to nearby allies) and survivability (the conch heals the soldier).
Last one is Medic. The medic's hands are always about his chest level (aiming with syringe gun, like in the left picture) or waist (medigun). The only situation where his right hand is raised is when he's using his melee weapon, which has been a thing since 2007.
The picture on the left was never meant to be comprehensive. In truth, at launch, every class had multiple distinct silhouettes. Everybody had at least 3, for their Primary, Secondary, and Melee weapons, engi had 1 more because of his PDA and Spy also has an extra one because of the sapper. Through the years, as more weapons got added, even more silhouettes were added to the game in concordance with the original design.
There are a million different examples of silhouette breaking and color erasing, but whoever made this image was simply dishonest and just put a lot of random shit in it (which the game does not allow you to, not even Valve is that retarded) plus he simply used different silhouettes, which are supposed to look distinct from the original ones to convery information from the player. And last, but not least, he used the Balloonicorn in at least two poses to further muddle the waters. The balloonicorn (and his brother, the reindoonicorn) as the name implies is just an unicorn shaped balloon that floats behind you, it's not part of the character's silhouette and you need to use perspective trick and complete lack of color to pretend it is.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;52414409]wew lad[/QUOTE]
a lot of it is very literal visual downgrades and he's calling them out. oh my god he's holding a multi million dollar company to a high standard!!!!
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52417480]For fucks sake if you want a review of a game go to an actual review channel, [B]instead of a channel that if you paid attention for a second is one that digs at games for laughs.[/B][/QUOTE]
So then, you would agree that sometimes his videos have a less than positive attitude towards the subject matter that they're covering, and that it's not crazy for some people to think that, to some extent, the same attitude carries over to this video?
[QUOTE=DrCactus;52414838]Not really. Most of the unlocks fit with the design philosophy of all of the classes, and they all have tradeoffs, and counter strategies. A soldier with the black box is still the exact same class he was before this, except now he gives up a rocket so he can get back maybe 25 - 35 health after 3 shots. A huntsman sniper is still going to be primarily aiming for key targets like Medics, and Heavies; but this comes at the cost of becoming weaker at sniper v sniper engagements.
The only really "out there" weapons would be Demo's shields, and even then you give up what is arguably the most powerful weapon in the game.[/QUOTE]
I really disagree: most of them after the Gold Rush update were not well thought out at all (Natascha and Sandman anyone) and it really got egregious with the Sniper Vs. Spy update where both classes basically traded roles (and both the Huntsman and the Ambassador were the absolute worst to face against for a multitude of reasons including that part).
By the time they got to promotional items, it really started becoming apparent they didn't care for either balancing or interesting concepts anymore and just stuck whatever stats they could think of when they were handed off designs instead of something that actually significantly changes the way how a class plays (i.e: Kritzkrieg, the unfortunately cut Scout Backpack, etc).
Yeah, the TF2 team really doesn't care about balance, that's why they made that blog post discussing balance changes to weapons right?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52417380][t]http://i.imgur.com/kHCsCrF.jpg[/t] [t]http://i.imgur.com/lj00rg9.png[/t]
Just fuck my shit up.
I wasn't sure which was the demoman until I noticed the peg-leg, which I assume would be something only the demo would have. Who the fuk is the pyro ? I'm not even sure who's spy and who's sniper.[/QUOTE]
This post is really nitpicky, but you can still see which class they are by their posing.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/YcnWmci.png[/t]
These combinations are not only impossible (a class can only have 3 cosmetics at once, Balloonicorn pet is only seeable if the other player has a pyro land item, and the unicorn hat is halloween only), but they're not even the same stances as in the other comparison image.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52418855]That doesn't give you leeway to go [I]"well he made this video I didn't like that means this video is invalid by extension!!!" [/I] That's not even a criticism of content of the video, it's a whine about tone which is a complete non argument. FFS the music that's attracting so many complaints is from the TF2 sound track.[/QUOTE]
I never said the video is invalid. My whole point has been "Crowbcat sometimes portrays things in a bad light, and I get the vibe that he's doing that in this video as well" - regardless of what is stated in the video description.
When you build a channel predominantly based on lets plays, you expect their videos to be lets plays,when you build a channel predominantly based on vlogs, you expect their videos to be vlogs, when you build your channel on predominantly trashing games, I'm gonna expect the videos to be about trashing games.
I think that's the point Protocol is trying to get across, how you build your channel creates an expectation of what kind of content there will be.
Why is there even comments about Crowb in this thread lol. It's just a fucking comparison video. Quit your crying.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost" - Kiwi))[/highlight]
I was wondering at what time TF2 was considered at its prime, i started this game mid 2014 and people are already saying that the game is dying and all that bad stuff.
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