[QUOTE=Dancingonpie;52887846]Variations of this thread happen a lot on Facepunch. Guy with opinion A posts with his thoughts. 1 other guy with opinion B posts with a very specific counterpoint.
If guy A is unsuccessful in making a valid argument against it within the next few posts, a hype train begins wherein 20 more people with opinion B make the original poster the Thread villain, which makes that person lash out in self defence.
You know what breeds that self defensive, argumentative impulse? Being a part of a community which consistently makes a game out of attacking people's opinions in a needlessly confrontational manner.
It fosters the belief that each individual user has to fight tooth and nail to justify having opinions, as if the very nature of subjectivity doesn't consistently blur the line between correct and incorrect statements. And pray to god you don't go against the grain! Otherwise the same users which once might have argued alongside you could turn against you instead. It's the most toxic kind of group think imaginable.
I see some people in these threads *acknowledge* the fact that subjectivity exists to a certain extent. But that kind of isn't enough.
We're all both wrong and right about a number of things. Regardless of whether the argument is fact or opinion based, both sides have to agree that vilifying the other person for seeing things differently does nothing but let a hateful, unproductive atmosphere permeate the discussion.
This cannot be achieved by pointing at those you disagree with and saying "lol, look at this fucko. Being upset that 20 people are treating him with disrespect. What an idiot, who needs feelings?"
Wouldn't you much rather have a discussion where you're feasibly *allowed* to be wrong without fear
of such a strong reaction being mounted against you?[/QUOTE]
hey yeah you just reminded me of this picture, and I'm sorry I can't find where I saw it being talked about (I think it's I Hate Everything's youtube) but I'll reiterate a point about it-
[t]https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAx8AAAAJDA2Y2M3YzdlLWFlNDItNDIxNi04ZmNlLTY2MzUxYjg0Yzg1Yg.jpg[/t]
this picture gets shared around a lot to say everybody has opinions from different perspectives, and that sometimes everybody might even be right in a sense. That's a dandy feelgood sentiment to make, but this very instance has an issue: Somebody put this number on the ground and it's very intentionally supposed to be one or the other. That's why on dice with 9 or more sides, the two of them tend to get underlined so people can't just say it's the one that better suits their needs at the time.
[t]https://www.reallygoodstuff.com/images/xxl/705842.jpg[/t]
In this instance, the video covers a number of less-than-subjective points instead of just whining about not liking cinemasins, and the guy getting dogpiled on dove in to defend it with points brought up multiple times across the video that are [i]irrelevant[/i] to the broader point of how sleezy and misrepresentative cinemasins is to the media it covers and the people that consume the videos.
[b](edited out a ramble on the points because I had to reapproach why people dogpiled, but it got quoted before resubmitting, whoops!)[/b]
Like, it's OK to find the content funny to a point, but the creator is bad at representing the way he's representing the media, and it's clear a lot of people treat it as legit (albeit cynical) reviews and post about how they feel they dodged a bullet by not going to see the movie on the regular. The defense of "It's just comedy" is vague at best but it's so consistently used to make him out to be a victim when called out for farming the shit out of youtube revenue with shitty clickbait tactics
[QUOTE=doomkiwi;52887879]Specifics are everything in this case though. I would have respected him if he could bring an argument.[/QUOTE]
But several people made the mistake of not gently correcting the behaviour and opted to ridicule him instead. If this were handled correctly in the first place, we wouldn't be on page 4 retreading the same ground over and over.
I really don't want to sound like I'm being contrarian for the sake of it. There are better ways to do this, and it will only continue to happen if the underlying problem isn't acknowledged.
[editline]14th November 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=dai;52887914]hey yeah you just reminded me of this picture, and I'm sorry I can't find where I saw it being talked about (I think it's I Hate Everything's youtube) but I'll reiterate a point about it-
[t]https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAx8AAAAJDA2Y2M3YzdlLWFlNDItNDIxNi04ZmNlLTY2MzUxYjg0Yzg1Yg.jpg[/t]
this picture gets shared around a lot to say everybody has opinions from different perspectives, and that sometimes everybody might even be right in a sense. That's a dandy feelgood sentiment to make, but this very instance has an issue: Somebody put this number on the ground and it's very intentionally supposed to be one or the other. That's why on dice with 9 or more sides, the two of them tend to get underlined so people can't just say it's the one that better suits their needs at the time.
[t]https://www.reallygoodstuff.com/images/xxl/705842.jpg[/t]
In this instance, the video covers a number of less-than-subjective points instead of just whining about not liking cinemasins, notably:
- the dudes worked for an SEO company and have bragged on multiple occasions about knowing their shit with SEO. This feeds into most of the other points as they absolutely hit clickbait trendmarks, and put their SEO expertise to use making sure their videos end up in related video feeds for everyone
- they always put up key videos on old media roughly 2 days before the release of a new sequel/reboot, they know when to maximize viewership, then follow up with a sins video on the new media shortly after the bluray release. I agree it seems like it'd be a smart move in general to stay on top of trends, but you can probably put money down on the fact that "everything wrong with star wars ep V" will come out on Wednesday, December 13th.
- they boosted the length of their vids in accordance to how youtube's ad revenue functions have changed over the past year or so, notably bumping from 5-7 minutes to 10+ during last year's 10 minute ad extravaganza, and more recently bumped to 20-25 with the new trend of tertiary ads and unlocking the banner popups mid-video or whatever else functions come with the longer timestamp milestones
- they constantly deflect criticism of their critique as "it's comedy/satire" but refuse to put their content in the comedy feed for fear of less viewership, because they want it to show up alongside all the serious movie media people are more commonly looking to consume. People watch their shit as serious (if not clearly spiteful) reviews and even when it doesn't outright spoil the entire plot of the movie (badly), comments frequently demonstrate people are choosing not to watch the media (if only out of confirmation bias) after watching these videos. They're being taken as real reviews. Beyond that, they also consistently debunk their own claim by constantly talking about how it's all their views and reviews.
- Watch the start of the video, guy ranting in the car. That's the voice of the entire shebang complaining about media dumbing shit down and repeating the same garbage ad nauseum because it sells well while losing your artistic integrity. This entire thing is about that same guy using the same exact media template in premiere for years now, quickly cutting videos down to size with whatever witty remark he can muster, then shoveling that content out twice a week, because it sells.
People have a right to be pissy about cinemasins. A lot of us haven't liked it more than the first one or two vids we watched and haven't bothered to dig into how much of a dumpster fire of lazy youtube monetization farming the whole thing really is, and the OP vid went to the trouble of laying it down and calling it out. Cinemasins is not directly harming us, but it's not free of criticism for how much it's making a good quick buck off people's inability to understand they're being played like a fiddle with shit misinterpretation/near-slander about potentially (and sometimes absolutely) good media.[/QUOTE]
Also, yes, I can see the value in defending viewpoints that are objectively right. But a lot of people don't see things from this same rational viewpoint. Some people will continue to fling shit around merely in the interest of saving face. But with those sorts of individuals I always find it better to acknowledge that if they've gone through their whole lives thinking with this heavy internal bias, there is a very slim chance that you can correct that. Being a dick won't help, but simply walking away will.
[QUOTE=Dancingonpie;52887919]But several people made the mistake of not gently correcting the behaviour and opted to ridicule him instead. If this were handled correctly in the first place, we wouldn't be on page 4 retreading the same ground over and over.
I really don't want to sound like I'm being contrarian for the sake of it. There are better ways to do this, and it will only continue to happen if the underlying problem isn't acknowledged.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how to be more gentle in correcting than "This stance is repeatedly broken apart over and over again in the video. That's one of the HUGE portions of it. Please actually watch."
He then refused to watch the video and acted like a jackass. Nobody would have cared if he hadn't acted like a jackass, and that's on him. The dogpiling in this case is not a cause, it is a symptom of stupidity.
[QUOTE=doomkiwi;52887931]I don't know how to be more gentle in correcting than "This stance is repeatedly broken apart over and over again in the video. That's one of the HUGE portions of it. Please actually watch."
He then refused to watch the video and acted like a jackass. Nobody would have cared if he hadn't acted like a jackass, and that's on him. The dogpiling in this case is not a cause, it is a symptom of stupidity.[/QUOTE]
I'm not defending the way the other guy acted in this case, just so you know. He was also a big part of why this whole thing started.
[QUOTE=Dancingonpie;52887941]I'm not defending the way the other guy acted in this case, just so you know. He was also a big part of why this whole thing started.[/QUOTE]
What I'm saying was that it was handled correctly in the first place. The problems people had with him were not due to the fact that he had a dissenting opinion but that he was holding his hands over his ears going "lalalalalala". For the most part the posts were fairly respectful early on until he doubled down like a child. If this is typical for what you're talking about (you've provided no other threads as reference) then the issue is not about points and counterpoints, it's about people not actually making an argument and literally just coming into a thread to go "Well I don't care what you say I like this and I'm going to dumb everyone who thinks otherwise".
[QUOTE=doomkiwi;52887955]What I'm saying was that it was handled correctly in the first place. The problems people had with him were not due to the fact that he had a dissenting opinion but that he was holding his hands over his ears going "lalalalalala". For the most part the posts were fairly respectful early on until he doubled down like a child. If this is typical for what you're talking about (you've provided no other threads as reference) then the issue is not about points and counterpoints, it's about people not actually making an argument and literally just coming into a thread to go "Well I don't care what you say I like this and I'm going to dumb everyone who thinks otherwise".[/QUOTE]
I apologise if I misread some of the specifics which escalated the situation. I kinda just posted as a general reminder that this sort of thing can easily happen. I respect where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to attack you for wanting to speak out against people who you can see have clearly behaved incorrectly.
If you're able to dissect my arguments as respectfully as you are currently, my initial post wasn't aimed at you.
[QUOTE=Dancingonpie;52887974]I apologise if I misread some of the specifics which escalated the situation. I kinda just posted as a general reminder that this sort of thing can easily happen. I respect where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to attack you for wanting to speak out against people who you can see have clearly behaved incorrectly.
If you're able to dissect my arguments as respectfully as you are currently, my initial post wasn't aimed at you.[/QUOTE]
to your credit the dog-piling definitely exists in unwarranted situations and i think ratings are largely to blame
[QUOTE=usaokay;52888177]It's pretty much why I want ratings to be disabled, but everyone got used to lazily expressing opinions.
I also think negative ratings breed some sort of hostility with the receiver since no one likes being called "dumb" for having a different view or w/e. It's why you sometimes see someone complain about receiving negative ratings or feel offended and go off on a tirade.
At least if you're gonna disagree with a person's views that appear to have a lot of holes in it, go through a carefully constructive criticism, much like what that video's creator has done for CinemaSins.
It's not hard to be social.[/QUOTE]
I remember back when Facepunch had its first forum overhaul ratings were taken out and there was a big debate around it. I was one of the few who was in favor of the ratings removal and anecdotal it may be, it stopped me from being a lurker and also taught me to elaborate constructive posts at the time, in combination of Facepunch's stricter guidelines at the time i.e. why replies, snipes and other low effort posts were easily bannable. I remember it being pretty good and it actually helped me a lot to learn English as a non-native speaker, as well as inform me with a lot of interesting opinions and knowledge from other users. It wasn't perfect but I really think it did encourage healthier posting behavior to most users.
[QUOTE=usaokay;52888177]It's pretty much why I want ratings to be disabled, but everyone got used to lazily expressing opinions.
I also think negative ratings breed some sort of hostility with the receiver since no one likes being called "dumb" for having a different view or w/e. It's why you sometimes see someone complain about receiving negative ratings or feel offended and go off on a tirade.
At least if you're gonna disagree with a person's views that appear to have a lot of holes in it, go through a carefully constructive criticism, much like what that video's creator has done for CinemaSins.
It's not hard to be social.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm really unsure why ratings like Bad Reading were done away with yet dumb remains. It's just a way for people to immediately signal out the de facto dunce of the thread and ignore mostly everything else. The Facepunch hivemind isn't by any means infallible and I'm definitely inclined, maybe to my own fault, to shrug off mass-dumbed opinions even if upon further consideration aren't so dumb after all.
[editline]14th November 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Clovis;52888200]What i hate is how this aspect youve highlighted is carried on whenever someone tries to copy this format of video. It fucking does my head in seeing people poke fun at something thats unwarranted just to make a buck. I get its supposed to be entertainment but its just horseshit excuse for entertainment imo, its just extreme nitpicking for a comedic effect and the sense of [b]humour omly resonates with people who dont know any better[/b][/QUOTE]
More on topic, I think you nailed my biggest issue with CS here. It's just jokes by a seemingly smart person that you feel obligated to laugh to because you feel like there's something clever and witty going on, but you're not sure what. Just like a lot of Family Guy cutaways - "this is like the time famous actor did X Y Z!" The joke almost entirely relies on the premise that you have a pretty tenuous idea about the reference and assume that because it seems smart and satirical, it must be funny, despite not really meaning anything or going anywhere when actually analyzed.
Like the bit in the second video about Sherlock Holmes where Jeremy counts "The men and women are locked in the same jail cell. They didn't do that back in the day. Right? RIGHT???" as a sin. They make the historical accuracy of what's happening look accidental, then re-frame it to make Jeremy appear well educated and clever for making the observation. Meanwhile, the credit should be going to the movie for making even slightly astute viewers consider that was the reality. Somehow, this ends up being a flaw for the movie, tallied up next to actual valid criticism and a joke about Sherlock Holmes being horny. All while being marketed as criticism, except when it's not because "WE WERE ONLY BEING ~satirical~ ASSHOLES, IT'S NOT A REVIEW."
If there's one thing I've learned here it's not to try and defend whatever youtuber the people are are hating on because [I]you will[/I] be jumped on and mauled into a ban
That guy who was trying to defend cinemasins just did a me
[I][/I][QUOTE=Arbys Watcher;52888235]If there's one thing I've learned here it's not to try and defend whatever youtuber the people are are hating on because [I]you will[/I] be jumped on and mauled into a ban
That guy who was trying to defend cinemasins just did a me[/QUOTE]
Or he could've watched the video and provided a real defense without acting like a complete jackass.
I agree that sometimes people get dogpiled just for having unpopular opinions, but when someone argues for pages after admittedly not watching the video, and [i]then[/i] starts insulting people when they call him out it just becomes a gigantic thread derail.
[QUOTE=Arbys Watcher;52888235]If there's one thing I've learned here it's not to try and defend whatever youtuber the people are are hating on because [I]you will[/I] be jumped on and mauled into a ban
That guy who was trying to defend cinemasins just did a me[/QUOTE]
C'mon, it's pretty cut and dry when you say "Well that just shows how small-minded you are," "you've not got half a brain missing," and refuse to communicate it goes beyond trying to defend the youtuber and is pretty deserving of a ban.
[QUOTE=NachoPiggy;52888195]I remember back when Facepunch had its first forum overhaul ratings were taken out and there was a big debate around it. I was one of the few who was in favor of the ratings removal and anecdotal it may be, it stopped me from being a lurker and also taught me to elaborate constructive posts at the time, in combination of Facepunch's stricter guidelines at the time i.e. why replies, snipes and other low effort posts were easily bannable. I remember it being pretty good and it actually helped me a lot to learn English as a non-native speaker, as well as inform me with a lot of interesting opinions and knowledge from other users. It wasn't perfect but I really think it did encourage healthier posting behavior to most users.[/QUOTE]
Removing the smartness system was the worst decision for Facepunch
[QUOTE=Paramud;52888257]Removing the smartness system was the worst decision for Facepunch[/QUOTE]
Smartness returning plus no ratings/simplified ratings like the plus/minus system FP had after original ratings were removed, or at least removal of usually cheeky/redundant/sarcastic-prone ratings like dumb, even optimistic, artistic and useful can be simplified instead with the use agree, disagree, winner, informative with negative ratings left being late and bad reading would probably encourage better posting. It won't get rid of shitposts and abuse of ratings sure, but I feel like with some constrictions it'll be less room for quick zingers and more room with actual constructive posts.
[QUOTE=meppers;52887828]what was cinemasins trying to do with this statement? it's been bugging me for months and I finally get a thread to ask this in.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/fPo8E1E.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]
"Me name Jeremy. Me head hurt from triangles in space" I think is what he was trying to say
[QUOTE=Arbys Watcher;52888235]If there's one thing I've learned here it's not to try and defend whatever youtuber the people are are hating on because [I]you will[/I] be jumped on and mauled into a ban
That guy who was trying to defend cinemasins just did a me[/QUOTE]
If that's what you learned you obviously didn't read the thread
lmao at them saying that they're wrong intentionally at least 50% of the time. If that other 50% is genuine it's still pretty fucking bad.
And really mixing genuine criticism with fabrication doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it. What is the viewer supposed to make of the criticism if they can't always tell whether it's accurate of misconstruing the film on purpose? Might as well cut it out entirely.
[QUOTE=Destroyox;52888279]"Me name Jeremy. Me head hurt from triangles in space" I think is what he was trying to say[/QUOTE]
CinemaSins would watch the Microwave Chamber scene from MGS4 and say "What is Snake doing crawling on the ground like that? Dramatic effect? DING Also no sign of Meryl's ASS. DING"
[QUOTE=-Xemit-;52889238]Great vid from the same guy
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P0rLslL564[/media]
I have a hunch it might be satire[/QUOTE]
Epic video, dude xD was considering to watch it but now I know it's bad thx keep up the great content :D
I never realized that this guy posted one of my favorite videos from when I first started exploring the internet.
[video=youtube;Sf8cM7f6P2I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf8cM7f6P2I[/video]
What a small world :v:
On topic, I liked video game sins for a while, until I think it was there Until Dawn video where I noticed a lot of the "sins" we're just zingers, and not even good ones at that. I stopped watching their videos slowly after that.
[QUOTE=Mobon1;52888137]to your credit the dog-piling definitely exists in unwarranted situations and i think ratings are largely to blame[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure a lack of ratings would prevent dog-piling. You'd just end up with substantially more potentially low effort posts reiterating the same sentiment as opposed to a higher number next to a graphical icon.
Fans always keep saying how it's the "jokes".
But there is no "jokes". The entertainment comes from smugly pointing finger at the movie's mistakes and laughing at them.
And if you actually understand the context and the misrepresentation, there is no mistakes, no entertainment and most importantly no jokes. Just misrepresentation.
This thread was a really fun read. It had just about everything I've come to enjoy from reading posts about someone being upset at criticism on their liked content.
Anyway, I used to like CinemaSins in the beginning when I first stumbled upon it. Some jokes were funny and some criticisms made sense but after watching so many of them it really shows how blah the formula has become and for movies that I have watched, the moments that made me think, "are they being serious or joking because that sin made no sense" became more frequent. CinemaSins to me is like potato chip content, shit that really isn't all that inspiring, clever, or planned, but rather something just pasted together and thrown onto youtube for views over and over and over again. It's addictive by nature, you see a current topic (insert popular movie here) that is familiar and you watch the content solely because it's familiar, not because it brings anything new to the table. And for the creators to try and pretend that they do put a lot of effort into it is a plain lie and a total slap to the face of their viewers because they know exactly what they are getting away with, lazy fucking writing.
This video posted shows how much more rewarding it is to watch something that has been well thought out, created with a clear point and focus toward a topic that has a clear message as to what it is trying to convey to the viewer (that CinemaSins lack all of these things and try to play it off like they do them all). I honestly haven't watched CinemaSins for a long time ever since I saw the original critique of the CinemaSin channel. It just highlighted all the things wrong with it and was able to guide my finger as to why I started to lose interest in CinemaSins in the first place. This video owns and I look forward to more from bobvids.
The only good thing CinemaSins did for me is turn me to CinemaWins
When you lie to make a joke, the joke stops being funny because the lies told just make the joke nonsensical.
Who thought that making up shit would make a good joke?
[QUOTE=Zotobom;52891754]The only good thing CinemaSins did for me is turn me to CinemaWins[/QUOTE]
It's nice to see channels like that once in a while, just good, overwhelming positivity even of that thing isn't the greatest, there's still good to be had.
I somewhat enjoy Cinemasins altough i only watch their videos of movies which i've already seen and mainly to see what they came up with. They bring up some interesting points and show things that i have not noticed when watching the movie and really makes me think of the movie in a different way (not in a bad way). I also don't find their jokes funny most of time but as i said i don't watch it for their "jokes". For them and for most people however it really is just a joke and not meant to be taken seriously, even they don't take it seriously and while they do annjoy me sometimes it's part of their whole style.
For me i think their best videos are when they nitpick a really shit movie or a really well known classic movie.
[QUOTE=Adarrek;52892399]I somewhat enjoy Cinemasins altough i only watch their videos of movies which i've already seen and mainly to see what they came up with. They bring up some interesting points and show things that i have not noticed when watching the movie and really makes me think of the movie in a different way (not in a bad way). I also don't find their jokes funny most of time but as i said i don't watch it for their "jokes". For them and for most people however it really is just a joke and not meant to be taken seriously, even they don't take it seriously and while they do annjoy me sometimes it's part of their whole style.
For me i think their best videos are when they nitpick a really shit movie or a really well known classic movie.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't it bother you how much of the nitpicks are disingenuous or simply incorrect?
Out of curiosity I watched Get Out this morning, and then watched the CinemaSins video on it, and I was struck by how horribly full of shit it was.
Almost every single 'sin' that wasn't an objective, if minor, error in consistency (AC on in one shot, then off in the next shot), was completely full of shit and easily explained. For instance, [sp]he counts the servants actually being their parents and yet staying around the house 'to be creepy' as a sin when it's blatantly obvious that they live there and only act as servants when another victim is there to explain their presence.[/sp] That's just one of many bullshit nitpicks, and this is in a movie that he makes clear is one of the best in years.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;52893188]Doesn't it bother you how much of the nitpicks are disingenuous or simply incorrect?[/QUOTE]
Not really, but sometimes. Mostly when a movie is based off a book and they nitpick things that are explained in the book, but then again they also said they ignore books or any other source material.
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