Pyro is more broken than ever after Jungle Inferno
62 replies, posted
The thing I never liked about Pyro is that it's usually not an ambush you die from, but a random encounter around a hallway corner.
[QUOTE=Talvy;53109609]The thing I never liked about Pyro is that it's usually not an ambush you die from, but a random encounter around a hallway corner.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure when you hover over Pyro on the class selection screen one of the tips it offers you is "jump enemies at corners"
Wow, it's like the only selling point.
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/IVK42Bf.jpg[/IMG]
Just replace [I]ambush[/I] with [I]run into[/I].
Tbh, If I want to ambush people, I play defensive demo, as I find it way more fun. But then people complain that I'm "camping". Oh, well.
[editline]5th February 2018[/editline]
And effective too, you just blow shit up with one mouse click.
[QUOTE=nuke4fix;53109644]Tbh, If I want to ambush people, I play defensive demo, as I find it way more fun. But then people complain that I'm "camping". Oh, well.
[editline]5th February 2018[/editline]
And effective too, you just blow shit up with one mouse click.[/QUOTE]
I would weep to see a Demoman do anything other than aggressively stickyspam these days.
Pyro is definitely a hard counter to scout now, youre better off avoiding and flanking than getting in the range of his flamethrower now. Before, it didnt really matter how i approached them, as long as it was by surprise. the new flamethrower wiggle thing makes that way harder and honestly explains a lot of my deaths
Pyro and medic are my mains whenever I do play, and the heal debuff fucks things up for me for sure
So I guess Pyro is my only main, thanks
I think that, at the very least, his new weapon needs a fresh kick in the nuts. Like, it's unexplained 300% more damage to buildings is bad enough, but landing two consistent shots will obliterate most classes, straight up two-shotting 125 health classes (spy, scout, sniper, engineer). [sp]Not to mention, landing two consecutive shots on a pyro still triggers the mini-crits on burning targets[/sp] I feel that it's DPS far outweighs it's clutches, which seem only to be 'how good you are at aiming'. Which, is an effective clutch with things like the Widowmaker because it's punishment is much harsher for missing a shot. The only drawback for missing with the Dragon's Breath is losing a little ammo, which you have plenty of. If there were a sort of delay to firing (i know there is one inbetween shots but it's still relatively quick), or even just a basic damage nerf, I feel like it'd be a bit more of a reasonable weapon.
Aside from that, seeing 3-4 Pyros on every public match, per team, should be telling that something may need to change.
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111275]I think that, at the very least, his new weapon needs a fresh kick in the nuts. Like, it's unexplained 300% more damage to buildings is bad enough, but landing two consistent shots will obliterate most classes, straight up two-shotting 125 health classes (spy, scout, sniper, engineer). [sp]Not to mention, landing two consecutive shots on a pyro still triggers the mini-crits on burning targets[/sp] I feel that it's DPS far outweighs it's clutches, which seem only to be 'how good you are at aiming'. Which, is an effective clutch with things like the Widowmaker because it's punishment is much harsher for missing a shot. The only drawback for missing with the Dragon's Breath is losing a little ammo, which you have plenty of. If there were a sort of delay to firing (i know there is one inbetween shots but it's still relatively quick), or even just a basic damage nerf, I feel like it'd be a bit more of a reasonable weapon.
Aside from that, seeing 3-4 Pyros on every public match, per team, should be telling that something may need to change.[/QUOTE]
I think Dragon's Fury is pretty nicely balanced. The airblast is a lot worse than stock, and the stock flamethrower actually does slightly more dps than if you hit with the Fury consistently. (the extra damage against buildings may just so that the weapon can actually destroy buildings in a timely manner)
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111275]I think that, at the very least, his new weapon needs a fresh kick in the nuts. Like, it's unexplained 300% more damage to buildings is bad enough, but landing two consistent shots will obliterate most classes, straight up two-shotting 125 health classes (spy, scout, sniper, engineer). [sp]Not to mention, landing two consecutive shots on a pyro still triggers the mini-crits on burning targets[/sp] I feel that it's DPS far outweighs it's clutches, which seem only to be 'how good you are at aiming'. Which, is an effective clutch with things like the Widowmaker because it's punishment is much harsher for missing a shot. The only drawback for missing with the Dragon's Breath is losing a little ammo, which you have plenty of. If there were a sort of delay to firing (i know there is one inbetween shots but it's still relatively quick), or even just a basic damage nerf, I feel like it'd be a bit more of a reasonable weapon.
Aside from that, seeing 3-4 Pyros on every public match, per team, should be telling that something may need to change.[/QUOTE]Dragon's Fury is absolutely fine. It does heavy consistent damage with the caveat that it severely punishes you for airblasting or missing a shot.
Seeing this makes me glad I quit playing TF2 before the wave of various nerfs and buffs. Watching what has happened more recently just acts as a greater reason to never go back and take the game seriously again.
I'll always miss being able to snipe with the ambassador though. That's my greatest tragedy.
[QUOTE=sourcegamer101;53110710]Pyro is definitely a hard counter to scout now, youre better off avoiding and flanking than getting in the range of his flamethrower now. Before, it didnt really matter how i approached them, as long as it was by surprise. the new flamethrower wiggle thing makes that way harder and honestly explains a lot of my deaths[/QUOTE]
Is Pyro a lot scarier for Scout? Yes. A hard counter? I don't think so at all. Scout can still keep out of Pyro's range and outmaneuver Pyro without that much difficulty, he's just not guaranteed safety if he stays close while the Pyro is aware of his presence. The pistol is your friend here, it does a lot of damage if you hit all your shots.
[QUOTE=Notanything;53111361]Seeing this makes me glad I quit playing TF2 before the wave of various nerfs and buffs. Seeing what has happened more recently just acts as a greater reason to never really ever take the game seriously again.
I'll always miss being able to snipe with the ambassador though. That's my greatest tragedy.[/QUOTE]
Interesting since 90% of the JI rebalances were due to feedback from serious competitive play. GRU has finally been unbanned, as well as the vita-saw.
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111275]Aside from that, seeing 3-4 Pyros on every public match, per team, should be telling that something may need to change.[/QUOTE]Responding specifically to this though
I think it's telling that a lot of players are really bad at dealing with the pressure of a class that approaches quickly and kills fast in close quarters and have been since release and that it has no more bearing on the class' actual strength than Bastion (or Torbjorn, on consoles) being considered overpowered in Overwatch. People thought Pyro was overpowered before, and the class was ruined for it because it turned out at the time only random casual server players thought he was. If you want to easily shut out the bum-rushing Pyro, again- play Heavy, trust me.
Heavy's a stonewall with unmatchable close range DPS, high health, and actual range, unlike Pyro. I've seen people mid-phlog taunt get hosed down as soon as it ends point blank by Heavy, unable to kill him. He's a hard counter to the rush-straight-at-enemies strategy played efficiently.
[QUOTE=Mifil;53109483]I'm starting to think Tf2 is unfixable by this point. Time to go, old man.[/QUOTE]
Apart from the pyro fuckery, TF2 is actually more balanced than it has been in ages, as most of the terrible overpowered shit weapons introduced in updates like The Uber Update and Spy vs Sniper are all nerfed or outright changed, and most of the controversial rebalances in the last couple of years have been reversed.
- Scouts can no longer insta-kill every class in the game with the flying guillotine and the sandman, or gain minicrits with the soda popper just by running around, or become the flash just by shooting people a few times with the baby face's blaster.
- Spies are no longer able to cosplay as sniper now that the dead-ringer and the ambassador have been nerfed into the ground.
- Engies don't instantly become Axton the Commando from Borderlands just by putting on the gunslinger, nor can they render solder and demoman utterly useless against their sentries just by spamming the short-circuit.
- Snipers no longer are required to wear the darwin's danger shield if they want to compete with another sniper wearing it.
- Even fucking pyro was arguably more annoying in close-quarter 1 vs 1 fights back when every pyro equipped the degreaser and axtinguisher, and the puff-and-sting meta reigned supreme.
I expect that Pyro will [I]eventually[/I] be fixed, once the TF2 team figures out how they managed to break him in the first place. All of the rebalances were good on paper - we were pretty hyped over in TF2 General Chat when the update page first launched. That being said, it's utterly inexcusable that the team doesn't appear to actually test the updates before they launch them. If Valve management actually gave a damn, they'd hire a few people from the TF2 community to playtest their game full-time. But then the Dota 2 team would get jealous, and lord knows we can't have Gabe's GOAT threatened in any way.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53111292]I think Dragon's Fury is pretty nicely balanced. The airblast is a lot worse than stock, and the stock flamethrower actually does slightly more dps than if you hit with the Fury consistently. (the extra damage against buildings may just so that the weapon can actually destroy buildings in a timely manner)[/QUOTE]
Maybe, in raw numbers. I just feel that the range and projectile speed on it, having no damage fall-off, [I]and[/I] making it a burst weapon makes it pretty powerful.
It seems that it's projectiles move either as fast or faster than a Direct Hit's. Given it's range, combined with pyro's mobility on land (not to mention his jetpack), gives him a very safe way to deal a lot of DPS, in contrast to the flamethrower, where you have to get right up in their face. You can sit a little further back with the Fury and do just as much damage, especially to a group of people.
I think, as a fix, I think it needs either a smaller range or just straight up less damage.
Maybe I'm wrong though, I dunno.
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111416]Maybe, in raw numbers. I just feel that the range and projectile speed on it, having no damage fall-off, [I]and[/I] making it a burst weapon makes it pretty powerful.
It seems that it's projectiles move either as fast or faster than a Direct Hit's. Given it's range, combined with pyro's mobility on land (not to mention his jetpack), gives him a very safe way to deal a lot of DPS, in contrast to the flamethrower, where you have to get right up in their face. You can sit a little further back with the Fury and do just as much damage, especially to a group of people.
I think, as a fix, I think it needs either a smaller range or just straight up less damage.
Maybe I'm wrong though, I dunno.[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah it travels so fast you should use it more like hitscan with a delay. Soldiers counter it, if they want to keep the pressure up they can't airblast so rockets are good against df pyros, and if they would rather airblast and run away they cant attack for a second. Also the default flamethrower can counter it, you can airblast the fireball.
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111416]Maybe, in raw numbers. I just feel that the range and projectile speed on it, having no damage fall-off, [I]and[/I] making it a burst weapon makes it pretty powerful.
It seems that it's projectiles move either as fast or faster than a Direct Hit's. Given it's range, combined with pyro's mobility on land (not to mention his jetpack), gives him a very safe way to deal a lot of DPS, in contrast to the flamethrower, where you have to get right up in their face. You can sit a little further back with the Fury and do just as much damage, especially to a group of people.
I think, as a fix, I think it needs either a smaller range or just straight up less damage.
Maybe I'm wrong though, I dunno.[/QUOTE]
Where would the weapon be then, though? It's intended to be a sort of precision flamethrower, a combat sidegrade of the stock flamethrower and I think it's good at that, offering more range and consistent damage, letting the Pyro fight at corners with single shots like demo or soldier but giving a fairly severe delay if you airblast or miss a shot. Airblasting is fairly important to Pyro and if you're on a flank against more than one person or a competent sturdier class like Soldier or Heavy missing a shot will [I]kill you.[/I]
The 300% building damage is probably because the weapon's base damage is sort of pathetic and buildings can't be set on fire or take minicrits, so it would be basically impossible to kill buildings without some kind of buff to building damage. Maybe it could go lower, I dunno.
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111416]Maybe, in raw numbers. I just feel that the range and projectile speed on it, having no damage fall-off, [I]and[/I] making it a burst weapon makes it pretty powerful.
It seems that it's projectiles move either as fast or faster than a Direct Hit's. Given it's range, combined with pyro's mobility on land (not to mention his jetpack), gives him a very safe way to deal a lot of DPS, in contrast to the flamethrower, where you have to get right up in their face. You can sit a little further back with the Fury and do just as much damage, especially to a group of people.
I think, as a fix, I think it needs either a smaller range or just straight up less damage.
Maybe I'm wrong though, I dunno.[/QUOTE]
The projectile does have a damage falloff actually, it just reaches it super early so you might not notice. DF's max damage is actually 90 per shot at point blank, not 75, and even that doesn't give it more DPS than the stock flamer (which by itself is quite low DPS-wise by offense class standards).
So it's not as devastating to groups of people as a well-timed well-positioned backburner or phlog, or even stock. It's just a longer ranged option. Kinda like a flaming shotgun. One that doesn't hit if you fire it next to a prop, like stairs, or a control point, or railings. Which is why I never use it :downs:
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53111431]Where would the weapon be then, though? It's intended to be a sort of precision flamethrower, a combat sidegrade of the stock flamethrower and I think it's good at that, offering more range and consistent damage, letting the Pyro fight at corners with single shots like demo or soldier but giving a fairly severe delay if you airblast or miss a shot. Airblasting is fairly important to Pyro and if you're on a flank against more than one person missing a shot will [I]kill you.[/I]
I'm not sure what the 300% building damage is all about, probably because the weapon's base damage is sort of pathetic and buildings can't be set on fire or take minicrits, so it would be basically impossible to kill buildings without some kind of buff to building damage.[/QUOTE]
I feel that an unlockable weapon should be for a niche situation, in the event of a specific scenario, and there should be downsides to hitting that niche as well.
i.e:
The Machina - Hit multiple targets at the same time, if they're grouping up a lot (But you have to be scoped)
The Sandman - Stun enemies from far away to rush in and do easy damage, if you're dying too much to 1v1s (But you have less health)
The Widowmaker - Consistent, unending damage, if you can't keep a building alive (at the cost of metal, you have to be [I]good[/I] with the shotgun)
The Dragon's Fury doesn't feel like that, it feels like it's more of a generally stronger weapon. Yes, it has a downside, the weakness of airblasts, but is that enough? In my experience, you've only got to land the one good airblast to repel a large group of people in an attack. It still has DPS on par with the stock flamethrower, with the added benefit of having better range. And given the DPS [I]of[/I] the flamethrower, that's a really strong number to have, especially if you can get away easier after doing that damage.
I don't know where less damage or a smaller range would put it, and maybe those aren't the nerfs it needs, but I do think that it needs to have a developed niche to fit in, not be a general upgrade to stock.
[QUOTE=Drury;53111442]So it's not as devastating to groups of people as a well-timed well-positioned backburner or phlog, or even stock. It's just a longer ranged option. Kinda like a flaming shotgun. One that doesn't hit if you fire it next to a prop, like stairs, or a control point, or railings. Which is why I never use it :downs:[/QUOTE]
But that's the thing, you have to have specific circumstances to make those weapons effective. You have to be positioned and timed well with a backburner, or you have to have your crits ready before or right when the enemy shows up with the phlog. With the Fury, you just have to be aiming at them and firing. It doesn't seem like a hard enough circumstance to encounter for it to be a weapon you only use sometimes.
The backburner rewards you for being behind your target at the right time, the phlog rewards you for using your crits at the right time, the fury rewards you for hitting your target, which is not hard to do.
[QUOTE=CyclonatorZ;53111408]
- Scouts can no longer insta-kill every class in the game with the flying guillotine and the sandman, or gain minicrits with the soda popper just by running around, or become the flash just by shooting people a few times with the baby face's blaster.[/QUOTE]
i still cry myself to sleep because of that BFB buff and nerf
it was just fine in its original form
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111453]But that's the thing, you have to have specific circumstances to make those weapons effective. You have to be positioned and timed well with a backburner, or you have to have your crits ready before or right when the enemy shows up with the phlog. With the Fury, you just have to be aiming at them and firing. It doesn't seem like a hard enough circumstance to encounter for it to be a weapon you only use sometimes.
The backburner rewards you for being behind your target at the right time, the phlog rewards you for using your crits at the right time, the fury rewards you for hitting your target, which is not hard to do.[/QUOTE]
Well as I said it still doesn't outdo the stock, and it has some pretty damning downsides associated.
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111453][B]I feel that an unlockable weapon should be for a niche situation, in the event of a specific scenario, and there should be downsides to hitting that niche as well. [/B]
i.e:
The Machina - Hit multiple targets at the same time, if they're grouping up a lot (But you have to be scoped)
The Sandman - Stun enemies from far away to rush in and do easy damage, if you're dying too much to 1v1s (But you have less health)
The Widowmaker - Consistent, unending damage, if you can't keep a building alive (at the cost of metal, you have to be [I]good[/I] with the shotgun)
The Dragon's Fury doesn't feel like that, it feels like it's more of a generally stronger weapon. Yes, it has a downside, the weakness of airblasts, but is that enough? In my experience, you've only got to land the one good airblast to repel a large group of people in an attack. It still has DPS on par with the stock flamethrower, with the added benefit of having better range. And given the DPS [I]of[/I] the flamethrower, that's a really strong number to have, especially if you can get away easier after doing that damage.
I don't know where less damage or a smaller range would put it, and maybe those aren't the nerfs it needs, but I do think that it needs to have a developed niche to fit in, not be a general upgrade to stock.
But that's the thing, you have to have specific circumstances to make those weapons effective. You have to be positioned and timed well with a backburner, or you have to have your crits ready before or right when the enemy shows up with the phlog. With the Fury, you just have to be aiming at them and firing. It doesn't seem like a hard enough circumstance to encounter for it to be a weapon you only use sometimes.
The backburner rewards you for being behind your target at the right time, the phlog rewards you for using your crits at the right time, the fury rewards you for hitting your target, which is not hard to do.[/QUOTE]
No offense, but I think that's kind of silly. Not getting into it a step breakdown of each weapon there (though I will say the Sandman's been pretty neutered for casual play, not sure how it goes in competitive play) the reason most unlocks aren't really touched for competitive play is [I]because[/I] they're gimmick situational weapons. Don't get me wrong I love to play with a good gimmick, but it's not a useful weapon make. You always want something reliable over "kills everyone in this one situation but is completely useless otherwise"
A good unlockable weapon is something that offers comparable performance with a different avenue of play and a tradeoff in return. Something like the Direct Hit, which offers more single target damage for skilled aim at the cost of splash damage and versatility. The Rocket Launcher is generally a better choice for a myriad of reasons, but the Direct Hit still isn't the worst thing out there, even though you really can't understate how valuable splash damage is.
Like, if you compare the Dragon's Fury to stock right now with all its quirks, stock does more damage up close, has a much more viable airblast, is easier to use, and hits multiple targets a little easier. In contrast, the Dragon's Fury can hit from much further away, fire in bursts allowing you to take cover between shots, and deal with buildings pretty efficiently.
It doesn't feel like a gimmick meme weapon I'll occasionally use because I feel like it despite knowing it isn't a great idea like backburner or phlog, it feels like an [I]option.[/I]
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53111591]No offense, but I think that's kind of silly. Not getting into it a step breakdown of each weapon there (though I will say the Sandman's been pretty neutered for casual play, not sure how it goes in competitive play) the reason most unlocks aren't really touched for competitive play is [I]because[/I] they're gimmick situational weapons. Don't get me wrong I love to play with a good gimmick, but it's not a useful weapon make. You always want something reliable over "kills everyone in this one situation but is completely useless otherwise"
A good unlockable weapon is something that offers comparable performance with a different avenue of play and a tradeoff in return. Something like the Direct Hit, which offers more single target damage for skilled aim at the cost of splash damage and versatility. The Rocket Launcher is generally a better choice for a myriad of reasons, but the Direct Hit still isn't the worst thing out there.
Like, if you compare the Dragon's Fury to stock right now with all its quirks, stock does more damage up close, has a much more viable airblast, is easier to use, and hits multiple targets a little easier. In contrast, the Dragon's Fury can hit from much further away, fire in bursts allowing you to take cover between shots, and deal with buildings pretty efficiently.
It doesn't feel like a gimmick meme weapon I'll occasionally use because I feel like it despite knowing it isn't a great idea like backburner or phlog, it feels like an [I]option.[/I][/QUOTE]
I'm not saying that it should inherently have downsides because it's not stock, it just shouldn't be an upgrade to stock, full-stop. Stock should be a baseline, with other things having positive and negatives that ultimately balance out, just in different ways. It feels like the Fury doesn't do that, I personally feel that it's positives outweigh it's negatives.
Again, all personal opinion. Maybe I'll see it differently later.
[QUOTE=Gunteen8;53111608]I'm not saying that it should inherently have downsides because it's not stock, it just shouldn't be an upgrade to stock, full-stop. Stock should be a baseline, with other things having positive and negatives that ultimately balance out, just in different ways. It feels like the Fury doesn't do that, I personally feel that it's positives outweigh it's negatives.
Again, all personal opinion. Maybe I'll see it differently later.[/QUOTE]
I think Fury is one of the only weapons that really does do that, personally. Stock flamethrower is [I]really good [/I]at what it does right now with the shaking tactic, and Dragon's Fury is good in a different way.
Also, in retrospect the Direct Hit might be a bad example. Not very good for competitive.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;53111610]I think Fury is one of the only weapons that really does do that, personally. Stock flamethrower is [I]really good [/I]at what it does right now with the shaking tactic, and Dragon's Fury is good in a different way.[/QUOTE]
I think the Tomislav is sort of like that, on par with stock, just in a different way.
Seeing this video basically reaffirmed my reasoning for leaving.
TF2 never did any one massive bad thing but suffered from a long time of poor and inefficient changes.
It's lasted more than a decade, which is pretty impressive IMO. Sure its quality dropped towards the present but I've got some real fond memories of the game. My 1k hours in it were time well spent.
but seriously where is that last fucking comic valve
[QUOTE=Smashing Good;53111826]It's lasted more than a decade, which is pretty impressive IMO. Sure its quality dropped towards the present but I've got some real fond memories of the game. My 1k hours in it were time well spent.
but seriously where is that last fucking comic valve[/QUOTE]
Well, the writer Jay Pinkerton left Valve, but he's contracting with Valve for the last comic. If for whatever reason they can't finish it, he said he'll post the story on twitter. (pretty sure literally all the senior writers have left valve, just like three junior writers left)
[editline]6th February 2018[/editline]
[QUOTE=Elstumpo;53111800]Seeing this video basically reaffirmed my reasoning for leaving.
TF2 never did any one massive bad thing but suffered from a long time of poor and inefficient changes.[/QUOTE]
The next summer update will have (probably) new Heavy weapons and a decent (hopefully) competitive mode. Might want to give it a try then. But TF does have a huge abandoned content problem from being Valve's testbed.
Replays
MvM/Botkillers
Killstreak Kits
Coaching
Haunted items
The gamemodes, Mannpower mode, Pass time, Medieval mode, and Territorial control
Decals on cosmetics
Australium weapoms
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