It would be cool if they had generic respawning mook companions
[QUOTE=gudman;48003552]If you think there's going to be difference in mechanic between console version and PC, you're in for a disappointment, they sure as hell won't make different systems. And even then - for the console players, how is new system an improvement? My problem with it is not that I think it's dumbed down or anything, I [b]see[/b] that the mechanic is worse in every way than what was before, regardless of voiced or not voiced PC. There's no way you'll have more than four options on screen, so when there's in fact more - you'll get "more" option that you'll have to click to expand it, and then do that again, all the while not knowing what exactly your character has to say. What an awesome mechanic.
There's no redeeming qualities to this kind of thing, it's straight up bad and not necessary. Like, the supposed removal/merge of skills with other mechanics, I can agree with - old system got kind of obsolete, so a new system can possibly an improvement, depending on how they actually handle it. I'm not opposed to all of the changes, just the ones I think are overcomplicating things that don't need it. Like, the opposite of "streamlining".[/QUOTE]
It still doesn't change that we've seen only a glimpse of the new dialogue tree, and as such we can't just judge based off the very very tiny thing we saw at E3.
Also It seems that the skills are gonna maybe be like Skyrim skills where you shoot stuff to increase your guns and such, which I'm ok with because putting in brownie points and being one point off from your character talking about farts, to quoting Shakespeare, is pretty fucking stupid and arbitrary.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48003581]It still doesn't change that we've seen only a glimpse of the new dialogue tree, and as such we can't just judge based off the very very tiny thing we saw at E3.
[/QUOTE]
What are you even talking about, how does it matter if we saw little, we saw the entire new dialogue wheel, in action? What, you think it expands later on, depending on the character you're talking to or something? Will gamepads grow more buttons as the game progresses? What makes you think this very thing will change depending on how much time you play? Why are you even defending it, let alone with arguments that don't work?
I'd understand your argument if I was talking about any other gameplay element, but this one?
[editline]19th June 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48003581]
Also It seems that the skills are gonna maybe be like Skyrim skills where you shoot stuff to increase your guns and such, which I'm ok with because putting in brownie points and being one point off from your character talking about farts, to quoting Shakespeare, is pretty fucking stupid and arbitrary.[/QUOTE]
I'd absolutely welcome that, as long as there's no Skyrim-esque grindy skills akin to Enchanting and Smithing.
[QUOTE=gudman;48003606]What are you even talking about, how does it matter if we saw little, we saw the entire new dialogue wheel, in action? What, you think it expands later on, depending on the character you're talking to or something? Will gamepads grow more buttons as the game progresses? What makes you think this very thing will change depending on how much time you play? Why are you even defending it, let alone with arguments that don't work?
I'd understand your argument if I was talking about any other gameplay element, but this one?[/QUOTE]
Because we only saw a little bit of the tree. We need to wait and see if this is going to be set in stone or not. We only saw what little we saw. As for the "Grow more buttons" thing, what happened to a selection that says "More" to get, well, more choices. Sure it'll be silly on the PC, but at least it won't be 4 choices.
Also I'm not defending it, you're just making a mountain out of a molehill. I understand as well that it was concerning to see how limited it LOOKED, and I'm just as concerned as well. But I'm not making a huge deal about it because the game was just bloody announced. I'm waiting for confirmation before I worry about limitations of mouth speaking.
[editline]19th June 2015[/editline]
Bottom line, just wait for some confirmation instead of declaring it as some kind of deal breaker.
Even if the talking is limited, I'll still probably buy the game because of how fucking fun it looks and how good the gameplay will be, the dialogue will just be a major negative towards the game.
[QUOTE=t h e;48002515]Anita said that about crafting in [I]Fallout[/I]? i'm dumbfounded[/QUOTE]
She said a bit of stuff about it and Doom, and so did McIntosh.
I honestly do not know who the fuck made these two idiots important in the first place, because when you say shit like that about games like Doom, it just makes you sound like a complete asshat who cowers at any sight of violence, who's opinion should NEVER be taken into consideration, for the sole reason that there is no objectivity whatsoever in those opinions.
tell me lies tell me sweet little lies
Was laughing my ass off then i saw the feminist twitter bit at the end and that pretty much pissed me off.......how can one person be so fucking retarded and get so much publicity and support.
[QUOTE=Source;48005065]Was laughing my ass off then i saw the feminist twitter bit at the end and that pretty much pissed me off.......how can one person be so fucking retarded and get so much publicity and support.[/QUOTE]
I mean, you're talking about them right now, aren't you?
[QUOTE=Source;48005065]Was laughing my ass off then i saw the feminist twitter bit at the end and that pretty much pissed me off.......how can one person be so fucking retarded and get so much publicity and support.[/QUOTE]
I'm twice the idiot she is and I get no support but everyone hates me. I must ask her how she does this.
it just werks
[QUOTE=gudman;48003372]It's because voiced dialogue. I bet it fucking is. Bethesda has decided that the player getting to read what character has to say, and then have character say that exact same stuff is redundant. Sure, but DeusEx:HR has a solution: you get keyword, but then right under the Social wheel you get a disambiguation of what Adam Jensen has to say, exactly.
Fucking Alpha Protocol has the same system. What on Earth made Bethesda go and try rip off Mass Effect with it's sub-par (let's be honest here, Mass Effect is not the best [b]RP[/b]G out there) dialogues system instead of those games. Their system is literally worse than what previous games had, more limited, more complex. Why do that?
It's what drives me up the wall about Fallout subreddit. Anyone who shows concern about new dialogue system gets downvoted to shit and told that its, apparently, "the same, just dialogue options branch out now! It's the same!" - if that's the case, why make it more complex and clumsy? Just, why? Because the other reason for doing that implies literally dumbed down dialogues with just four options to say "no food" and "get food".[/QUOTE]
I don't think you understand what the point of the mass effect system was (and this is why I don't understand why it gets any hate at all)
Mass effect style dialog is meant to be super quick to read and respond, to allow conversation to flow naturally. You can't do that if every time you input a response you are encouraged to read a detailed overview of what you are going to say for each option. Why do that, when having keywords that give you the minimum amount of information needed to understand what kind of response you are going to give lets you do the same thing with dramatically reduced reading time, therefore allowing for a more natural conversation flow?
That's the reason why mass-effect style dialog wheels are popular, used, (and up until now, apparently) and favored by a lot of people for voiced dialog. It simply allows for better conversation flow when you are dealing with voice actors making dialog choices between each other.
I really don't understand what the "downside" to it is, and before you say it limits options, clearly you haven't played Witcher 3. The worst part about this system is when a game does it poorly - i.e. LA Noir. Where you select "Doubt" and instead it causes the main character to insult and go on a massive tirade. AKA where you pick an option thinking it means something but it means something else. The way to fix this is just by doing [B]better writing[/B].
Full text responses work better for Fallout 3 because conversations on your side are all text, and have no pace. Despite the hate fully voiced coversations get, they allow for things such as pacing and banter to take place - something you can't do with a partially-voiced conversation system or a text-only conversation system. Text only has its advantages in that you can easily write a lot of really good dialog on the cheap but the problem is you can't pace such conversations. This is what contributes to older RPG's feeling really "slow" for a lot of people, to the point of being boring at times unless you are an avid fan of reading (sadly, not most people).
It is like the difference between turn based strategy and real time strategy. TBS is considerably more methodical and often allows for deeper interactions, but the gameplay style is incredibly slow and much more abstracted than it otherwise would be in real life. Good for people wanting a slow tactical game, but bad for people who don't have the patience for it or find such games too slow. Real time strategy on the other hand is much more fluid, faster, requires a good feeling of pacing, and what you are doing is often much less abstracted than real life. The downsides are you can't think out every move, which isn't good if you prefer a slow tactical playstyle, and the simulation often can't simulate deeply as many things. Otherwise, they would get lost on the player or confuse the gameplay too much.
Bethesda wants to make games more like the latter. Everything about Fallout and Elderscrolls is less "traditional turn based RPG" and more "real time RPG", because they've always wanted to sell the idea that the player lives another life in another world. The only places that have been an exception to this pacing in their games has been the conversation system. A system like what they are doing now fits the style of RPG Fallout 4 is more than Fallout 3's conversation system (which wasn't even particularly good, I am not sure why people are defending it). The biggest issue with them doing this is elimination of choice thanks to a voice acting budget. Let us hope it doesn't come down to that, but lets be honest - I'm sure Bethesda would rather have fluid, more "natural" and realistic conversations at the cost of having more dialog options. More dialog options that (in Bethesda games) rarely contributed much unless it was a major NPC.
For the record, Witcher 3 does the exact same thing with dialog except presents it in list format and nobody gave a shit. That said, the benefit is witcher 3 has much more than 4 dialog options present at once, which is nice for getting fluff info (mass effect did this as well by tying dialog to the thumb sticks and having nestled categories). I get why bethesda puts it on the face buttons - even quicker access to you choices to make the conversation even more fluid and real time. The problem is they need to put in some kind of support for nestled menu's like in Mass effect if they want to have the capability to support deep conversations in important moments or with important characters. I don't think that is ever something Bethesda cares about in their games though.
[QUOTE=KorJax;48005462]words[/QUOTE]
I appreciate that you wrote all that to explain why Mass Effect's dialogue wheel works, and I agree with you, but... I never disagreed? Mass Effect's wheel works brilliantly, [b]for Mass Effect[/b]. Where you don't roleplay, you just play an adventure, completely linear one. Shepard is not you - he/she is Shepard, their own character, you just can sort of decide their attitude here or there. Even renegade/paragon Shepards don't differ from one another all that much.
Same thing with Witcher 3 - you're not playing your own character, you're playing as Geralt. Geralt is established character, with his own opinions. It's uncomparable with Fallouts, where you decide who your character is and how they interact with the world. There's no reason, no reason at all to point at those games and say "but it works there!", yeah it does. Because these are different kinds of games, they're different subgenres within "action-RPG".
Fallout has never been about pacing in dialogues. It has never been a cinematic experience. Fallout has always been about establishing your character in the world, impacting shit all over the place with your decisions. There was no reason to change that. Voiced PC - great, make more. You really like Dialogue wheel - fantastic, there're games that do it great, look at Deus Ex:HR. But nah. Let's go the lazy route, make key-words and that's it. Now go, open-world adventure, establish your character, make a name for them, but whoops - you don't even know what they'll say before you press a button.
I'm guessing it'll be like "A: Hello B: Goodbye X: Ask question Y: Trade" and if you press X it'll go to a sub dialogue menu that's like "A: Who are you B: Nevermind X: Ask about brotherhood Y: Ask about jobs". Most situations in Fallout give you exhaustive dialogue options, this might be a bit more limiting if Bethesda doesn't pull it off right.
[QUOTE=Baboo00;48005919]I'm guessing it'll be like "A: Hello B: Goodbye X: Ask question Y: Trade" and if you press X it'll go to a sub dialogue menu that's like "A: Who are you B: Nevermind X: Ask about brotherhood Y: Ask about jobs". Most situations in Fallout give you exhaustive dialogue options, this might be a bit more limiting if Bethesda doesn't pull it off right.[/QUOTE]
How very comfortable, openable sub menus of key-words instead of a comprehensive scrollable list. For people who get bored from reading more than five words in one go.
Also I haven't played the Witcher 3 but my friend tells me it's hard to tell what Geralt will say based on what you pick. So she ends up getting in lots of fights accidentally.
[QUOTE=gudman;48005961]How very comfortable, openable sub menus[/QUOTE]
yeah, like in EVERY OTHER FUCKING FALLOUT GAME.
[QUOTE=Baboo00;48005991]Also I haven't played the Witcher 3 but my friend tells me it's hard to tell what Geralt will say based on what you pick. So she ends up getting in lots of fights accidentally.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it happened to me a lot when I tried to solve situations without violence.
"Let's see, uh, option 1. is 'There's no need for violence' cool I'll go with that."
"Leave him alone or I'll KILL YOU!"
"Oh no"
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