RNG In Competitive Games - General

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;46366654]I'm not really sure I follow the point of this video. It doesn't seem to be arguing in favor of or against RNG.[/QUOTE] You know, it's possible to make informational and educational videos, that have no bias.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46370115]Then there's also fighting games, which he didn't bring up, where RNG is to be avoided at all cost.[/QUOTE] Yeah, there are definitely some game types where RNG is a flat out no-no. Physics puzzle games like armadillo run are definitely another one. [QUOTE=nikomo;46370151]You know, it's possible to make informational and educational videos, that have no bias.[/QUOTE] Of course, but the tone of the video seems to flip back and forth to me.

Some games of sfc3 let you dodge every torp ever, and others the first alpha strike cracks your hull, kills tactical, helm, and engineering, stuns your weapons, and burns your hot pockets.

[QUOTE=ashxu;46366670]I think dota 2 is a bad example of rng, some heroes rely on it to succeed (like in the video) which means lady luck will determine if they will win or not. You can mitigate it by analyzing if the risk is worth engaging in combat or not but the fact that it is a core mechanic on some heroes really makes it bad.[/QUOTE] It's used to balance the power levels of some heroes. Faceless Void, for example, has a chance rate to completely dodge any single amount of damage against him. Gameplay-wise this means that it deters you and possibly punishes you for using giant single-target nukes on him. It also means that constant DoT's are really good against him. It's a good balancing mechanic if you know what you are doing. There is a small amount of luck in it, but that simply makes things more interesting. Any sport in real life is effected by a bunch of minor random influences, so I can easily see it's placement in a competitive game such as DotA. [editline]30th October 2014[/editline] Luck doesn't determine their success, it determines what they're supposed to do in order to be successful. It's not lady luck's fault if you Finger of Death'd a Faceless Void and he Backtracked it. It's your fault for using that spell on a hero well known for completely ignoring a specific spell like that.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46370115]He says FPS games use RNG in their firing, but most FPS games haven't used cone based RNG spread since Battlefield 2. In CSGO, Battlefield, and Call of Duty all weapons have distinct firing patterns which you can learn and get used to. That's not to say they have the exact same recoil every time, but if you sprayed in to a wall ten times it would look extremely similar nine of those times, with the tenth only being slightly different. Then there's also fighting games, which he didn't bring up, where RNG is to be avoided at all cost.[/QUOTE] They might have predefined patterns (although I don't think any games but CS really have significantly predefined recoil patterns, as opposed to just a tendency to go in one direction over another), but there's still a cone on top of that 99.9% of the time, that's why crosshairs expand when you move

[QUOTE=Ericson666;46372768]They might have predefined patterns (although I don't think any games but CS really have significantly predefined recoil patterns, as opposed to just a tendency to go in one direction over another), but there's still a cone on top of that 99.9% of the time, that's why crosshairs expand when you move[/QUOTE] This is an intended gameplay mechanic to punish run and gun with rifles and make smgs not useless.

Anyone talking how shotguns in TF2 work in a grid pattern?

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;46370115]He says FPS games use RNG in their firing, but most FPS games haven't used cone based RNG spread since Battlefield 2. In CSGO, Battlefield, and Call of Duty all weapons have distinct firing patterns which you can learn and get used to. That's not to say they have the exact same recoil every time, but if you sprayed in to a wall ten times it would look extremely similar nine of those times, with the tenth only being slightly different. Then there's also fighting games, which he didn't bring up, where RNG is to be avoided at all cost.[/QUOTE] Actually spread is still an RNG cone, just a much smaller one when fired precisely, it's recoil that goes on a pattern, although admittedly CoD only applies spread to hipfire and shotguns. Actually technically CS is the only one of those that actually has defined recoil patterns, others have RNG chances of kicking a set amount in one of multiple directions.

Am I the only one turned on by that 870mcs slug snipe?

[QUOTE=Kondor;46368531]they don't even rely on rng they use pseudo rng where for example axe spinning will occur more if he hasn't spun in a while, and becomes less likely if he spins more to force the intended spin chance[/QUOTE] Over an entire game it may balance out but you still may not get your procs [u]when you really need it[/u]. Wheb would you want a proc more? Farming creeps or in the middle of a team fight? Balancing around RNG also isn't a good idea either. If Sniper has a % to headshot, why not make it like Caitlyn in LoL? After x amount of hits the next shot will be a headshot. This also allows you to zone your enemy because they will be afraid to last hit in lane if they know your next shot WILL be a headshot, rather than dipping their hand in the raffle box and hoping to get lucky.

[QUOTE=kiloy;46370010]I know that end part about the shitty servers isn't rng but the fact that you can do something like 68 damage in 4 to a guy hitting his torso then when he is using the same loadout as you can do 102 in 3 to you without headshots[/QUOTE] that is also not rng those are bad hitboxes Just like I've done 30 dmg at point blank range to the head with an AK

[QUOTE=ashxu;46373877]Over an entire game it may balance out but you still may not get your procs [U]when you really need it[/U]. Wheb would you want a proc more? Farming creeps or in the middle of a team fight? Balancing around RNG also isn't a good idea either. If Sniper has a % to headshot, why not make it like Caitlyn in LoL? After x amount of hits the next shot will be a headshot. This also allows you to zone your enemy because they will be afraid to last hit in lane if they know your next shot WILL be a headshot, rather than dipping their hand in the raffle box and hoping to get lucky.[/QUOTE] Because; Sniper attacks so often you never have that moment of truth or whatever (its just some extra damage and an AS/MS slow), and you skill headshot second anyway. Most snipers usually get attack speed items first, and even late in the game, there's never a point where you will make or break a play if you don't get that one crucial headshot off or whatever Sniper isn't even a good argument against RNG in dota. If you want something like that, you should see Faceless Void's 25% chance to dodge an instance of damage, no cooldown or mana cost and it doesn't matter how big or small that damage was. But even then, he's not gamebreaking because you can just dog-pile him and kill him, or use Doom's agh ult to disable that passive.

Pfft, playing games is too luck-based. We should develop a machine that scans each competitor's brain to calculate their skill and have that be the deciding factor. It's the only way to be sure.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;46374158]Because; Sniper attacks so often you never have that moment of truth or whatever (its just some extra damage and an AS/MS slow), and you skill headshot second anyway. Most snipers usually get attack speed items first, and even late in the game, there's never a point where you will make or break a play if you don't get that one crucial headshot off or whatever Sniper isn't even a good argument against RNG in dota. If you want something like that, you should see Faceless Void's 25% chance to dodge an instance of damage, no cooldown or mana cost and it doesn't matter how big or small that damage was. But even then, he's not gamebreaking because you can just dog-pile him and kill him, or use Doom's agh ult to disable that passive.[/QUOTE] It's the easiest to understand although it's not an all or nothing scenario I guess. Not like Faceless Void, Axe or Phantom Assassin.

The way I see it, RNG doesn't make a game "luck based" rather than "skill based". I think part of a player's skill involves making split second decisions about whether or not a risk is worth the reward, and not just reflexes and strategy.

RNG in shooters with some degrees of random spread is usually mitigated by the fact that you usually fire hundreds of bullets every minutes. Sure, sometimes you'll fire from the hip and get a headshot but most of the time you're better-off taking aim. Hit-or-miss weapons like sniper rifles will usually get high-damage and pixel-perfect accuracy when taking aim and can't be relied at all when you hipfire so while you can still take the chance most of the time people won't take the rng-dependent choice.

[QUOTE=Pythagoras64;46374476]The way I see it, RNG doesn't make a game "luck based" rather than "skill based". I think part of a player's skill involves making split second decisions about whether or not a risk is worth the reward, and not just reflexes and strategy.[/QUOTE] It's just that when enemy makes the first move, if you're skilled enough to minimize the damage taken from the following shots, you have a chance to survive the attack and kill the enemy. But in case of a critical hit, like in TF2, you take one shot without enough time to move away and BAM! Game over, man. Shit happens. gg no re

The way I see RNG in Dota is that you should consider it as an increase of your overall damage, not as a basis for clutch plays or something. Like Phantom Assasin has 15% crit for 450% damage BUT she has a skill that specifically inreases attack speed to make more hits, for a bigger chance to deliver that crit. Chaos knight is based on RNG. He has a 10% crit for 300% dmg BUT he can summon illusions that also process that crit.

People who gate RNG in games should learn probability calculation and assessment, instead of expecting to win by using the lowest possible brainpower (repeating a sequence of commands and reflex speed).

[QUOTE=Pythagoras64;46374476]The way I see it, RNG doesn't make a game "luck based" rather than "skill based". I think part of a player's skill involves making split second decisions about whether or not a risk is worth the reward, and not just reflexes and strategy.[/QUOTE] Yeah and after you evaluate the risk vs the reward and decide to go in convinced that it's worth it the enemy Sniper stunlocks you to death because he got lu- I mean, outskilled you.

[QUOTE=Manibogi;46376662]Yeah and after you evaluate the risk vs the reward and decide to go in convinced that it's worth it the enemy Sniper stunlocks you to death because he got lu- I mean, outskilled you.[/QUOTE] then, tough luck mate. you had the odds in your favour but lost.

I think that in comp games where randomness plays a big role the skill lies in trying to minimize the number of bad 'rolls' (as in dice roll) that you have to take, games like bloodbowl are a prime example

[QUOTE=Manibogi;46376662]Yeah and after you evaluate the risk vs the reward and decide to go in convinced that it's worth it the enemy Sniper stunlocks you to death because he got lu- I mean, outskilled you.[/QUOTE] Sniper isn't a good example cause he can't stun anymore.

[QUOTE=Valnar;46377789]Sniper isn't a good example cause he can't stun anymore.[/QUOTE] Huh, wasn't aware of it. I was just going by what the video said. Still, that example could be applied to other heroes like Chaos Knight, Faceless Void and Ogre Magi so my point still stands.

[QUOTE=Manibogi;46377888]Huh, wasn't aware of it. I was just going by what the video said. Still, that example could be applied to other heroes like Chaos Knight, Faceless Void and Ogre Magi so my point still stands.[/QUOTE] But for each one of those times they get a lucky steak there is usually also an unlucky steak too. Like you can't always depend on the luck showing up on the times you need it the most. If you are going into fights as ogre needing a 4x blast to win than you will generally lose that fight and give advantage to your opponent, so you've got to account for your randomness in your game plan.