All these points aside my biggest issue with Skyrim is that it doesn't feel like a real world. Instead it's like a theme park where you visit the different rides and the entire world revolves around you.
What I find weird is how people plainly state that Skyrim/Oblivion had better <insert thing that got better as time went on>
I do not believe that Skyrom/Oblivion was dumbed down excessively, but I do believe that they were made much more linear. There are numerous faults with both Oblivion and Skyrim that really made it hard for me to enjoy repeated playthroughs (as well as my original one.)
That, however, came down to the developers themselves. In all fairness, they made a great attempt, but the sheer amount of characters just as bland as the voiceless ones in Morrowind, repeated quests involving dungeons and darugrs, and A-B fetch quests really made the game a lot worse than it could have been. But that isn't dumbing down, that's just bad development and attempting to tweak things that people disliked with the older games.
Morrowind had fetch quests and bland dialogue and a boatload of other issues, but that came out in [I]2002[/I]. Having replayed Morrowind recently after years without touching it, I actually enjoyed a lot of the fetch quests. There was stuff to explore instead of just grabbing a horse and heading straight up a sheer cliff towards the quest marker, and I felt that the world was so much better than that of Skyrim and Oblivion.
So, of course Skyrim/Oblivion will do a lot of things better. Voice acting, the radiant AI system etc, that has all come from years of developers improving and advances in stuff. How he has managed to make over 60 minutes of video on that simple concept is surprising. These advances in certain features are present in a shitload of other RPGs.
I did get a good laugh at the comparison to Morrowinds character personalities to those of Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Baldur's Gate/Planescape etc. They're RPG's, but they're different types from different times. Morrowind was a bit of a stretch at the time in terms of gameplay, a big open world on such an engine is substantially different to what Baldur's Gate and Planescape were.
[sp]Whether or not the games were dumbed down never did matter to me, but what did matter was that I found Skyrim exceedingly boring for a good portion of the game, and that was without being a big fan of Morrowind, and having not played it for years. Oblivion I actually had a lot of fun with, but Morrowind was where most of my enjoyment occurred.[/sp]
[QUOTE=DeeCeeTeeBee;41479394]
They're RPG's, but they're different types from different times. Morrowind was a bit of a stretch at the time in terms of gameplay, a big open world on such an engine is substantially different to what Baldur's Gate and Planescape were.
[/QUOTE]What does that have to do with character personalities?
While the first video does make some very valid points, there are some things he says that I feel are somewhat incorrect. In fact while he admonishes people for judging Skyrim and Oblivion based on their nostalgic views of Morrowind, he makes some points that seem to be the polar opposite, judging Morrowind overly harshly. I'm not trying to say Morrowind is a perfect game by any stretch of the imagination, but the points he made clearly don't give it enough credit.
For example, the guild relations topic. He mentions that in Morrowind there is no effect on the NPC's reactions to the player beyond the simple disposition changes, which you can easily fix by just joining their faction. There is no mention of the inter-guild relations between the Fighters and Thieves guild factions. In Morrowind, you find out about midway through that the Fighters Guild questline that the majority of the faction leaders are in the pocket of the Cammona Tong, the local "mob", which the Thieves Guild is actively opposed to. Unless you do some fanagaling you can't keep both factions happy with you, and at some point you generally have to pick a side. And while you can do both, it's a very delicate balance you need to strike to achieve it, which unless you have a guide you probably won't really be able to achieve, at least the first time around.
The point he made about the quest markers and the journal systems were also flawed. He based his entire point around the fact that one character in one quest gave some incorrect directions. Sure, there were one or two other NPCs that gave incorrect directions as well, but my point is that instead of refining a system based on specific directions and exploration, the developers decided to scrap it all together and add a system in which you can literally just follow a compass for the entire time. Jingles acts like one small mistake made justifies the throwing away of an interesting system in favour of a system that holds the player's hand the entire time and discourages a sense of exploration.
And his point about NPC dialogue? He states that Call of Duty has more interesting and developed characters. I have nothing against Call of Duty as a franchise, but in those games there's generally, what, two to four memorable characters? The comparison is just ludicrous. He's basing his entire idea that "Morrowind didn't have memorable NPCs" on the fact that the commoners and random townfolk you talk to don't generally have much to say that's unique. He's ignoring 90% of the fleshed out characters to point out a flaw with the background NPCs. He mentions Crassius Curio, but what about Caius Cosades, the main quest giver and the player's mentor of sorts, who is basically a spy for the empire that keeps a facade of being nothing more than an old drug addict? What about the Balmora Mages Guild guildmaster Ranis Athrys, who is so clearly using you to further her own means, to the point where her quests involve her asking you to kill innocent people because they won't join the Mages Guild, under the pretence that they're practising necromancy? What about the Mages Guild leader, Trebonius Artorius, who is so blatantly incompetent he has a Telvanni spy (who's credentials are so badly forged that the chancellor's name is misspelled) as his advisor? What about even the people involved in minor quests, such as Larrius Varro, a local guard who hires you to dispense vigilante justice, because he couldn't do it himself as he had no proof? There are dozens of memorable and well-written characters in Morrowind, and while sure the generic villagers don't have much to say, basing your entire opinion on Morrowind's writing based on them alone is just ludicrous.
Basically the point I'm trying to make is, sure, Morrowind has flaws. It's not the perfect game that a lot of people say it is. But it has a lot of aspects to it that if fleshed out, could make a truly outstanding game. But instead of fixing them, adding depth to the later Elder Scrolls games, Bethesda decided to axe them completely, thus eschewing not only the potential depth those features could bring, but the depth that they brought to Morrowind even in their incomplete state. That's why I personally feel that the Elder Scrolls is dumbing down, anyway, because Bethesda is weeding out any and all features that players found somewhat irritating, instead of fixing and improving on them.
Glad to see someone put this video response together.
I still consider Morrowind my favorite in the series, but I can hardly call it perfect. And I agree with nearly every point he makes.
[QUOTE=Protocol7;41415793]Aw fucking Christ, part 2 is 46 minutes long. Well, time to grab a Dr. Pepper and some Nilla Wafers[/QUOTE]
Eww, those nilla wafers look like Jaffa cakes without all the good parts
There are good arguments on both sides, and I think in a lot of ways it is less "catering to casuals" and more just laziness/improper resource management, but every time someone talks of Morrowind and its flaws, they completely forget the absolutely disgusting combat.
I haven't played Morrowind extensively in ages, since I played the Xbox Game of the Year edition back in the day. All I hear about it is how good it is, and I remember many fond memories playing the game with my friends when I was younger. But every time I get the (ridiculous) notion to play it again, it isn't the story, the NPCs, the indirect directions or whatever the fuck else that turns me off the idea. Everything is grand and glorious until I actually have to fucking hit something.
I've played many types of games. I know of, and have enjoyed, games that are number based or otherwise have combat that isn't instantly reactive. I've played MMOs, and I can say with certainty that they have combat several billion times more interesting and weighty than Morrowind.
And people seem to understand that Morrowind's combat sucks donkey dick, and usually argue "but its easy to appreciate what it does have", and that I can agree. It definitely has worth, and charm, and the ability to have fun. But when a mechanic so crucial to the experience of the game is so balls-tastically bad, it puts a fucking stranglehold on the experience as a whole.
People seem to put Morrowind on some kind of a pedestal because it was a game from their childhood. Fuck, I'd be willing to say with certainty that Oblivion and Skyrim, with all their flaws, are a far far far far more fun experience than Morrowind because of the combat alone. Morrowind is a dated game, pure and simple. If the Elder Scrolls made the effort to return to it, it would be a huge step backwards in many ways.
They just need to learn from their mistakes from across all of their games, and continue/perfect things that they have done well.
I remember when Skyrim first came out I didn't care at all about The Elder Scrolls. When Skyrim came out I [I]literally[/I] could not even begin to comprehend what made the game so worthy of so much hype. So on a whim I acquired a copy and played it, expecting to play it for a couple of hours max. 100+ hours later still exploring the world and meeting new people I admitted that maybe it was pretty good. I also wanted more, so I tried to get in to Oblivion and Morrowind.
First I tried to play the games vanilla on a few occasions. I couldn't do it, it was way too clunky. Then I got some recommended overhaul mods. I still couldn't get into it, it felt way too clunky. I've tried it with different builds and different guides to read and all that stuff, and no matter what I couldn't seem to enjoy these games.
This is where I agree with him about saying that maybe nostalgia is a big deal. I'm a gamer who can appreciate an older game. Deus Ex came out in 2000, and I only played it for the first time in 2008 or so and it's my absolute favorite game of all time. Doom is still probably in my top ten action FPS games of all time when I grew up on the PS2. Half-Life and its mods are still genuinely fun for me even though I only played for the first time in 2007. The list goes on. Despite this, no matter how interesting the stories are, or how beautiful the world is; I simply can not bring myself to play Morrowind and Oblivion. And Lord knows I've tried. Because I didn't play those games when they first came out I'll never truly understand what made them so special, because the mechanics simply did not age well.
[QUOTE=Betakta;41479621]For example, the guild relations topic. He mentions that in Morrowind there is no effect on the NPC's reactions to the player beyond the simple disposition changes, which you can easily fix by just joining their faction. There is no mention of the inter-guild relations between the Fighters and Thieves guild factions. In Morrowind, you find out about midway through that the Fighters Guild questline that the majority of the faction leaders are in the pocket of the Cammona Tong, the local "mob", which the Thieves Guild is actively opposed to. [B]Unless you do some fanagaling you can't keep both factions happy with you[/B], and at some point you generally have to pick a side. And while you can do both, it's a very delicate balance you need to strike to achieve it, which unless you have a guide you probably won't really be able to achieve, at least the first time around.[/QUOTE]
all you have to do is to do is to beat the fighters guild quests first and then continue with the thieves guild, its not very hard to think "hmmm this quest requires me to kill the head of an another guild, i should probably complete their quests first"
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;41423242][wall of text about quests][/QUOTE]
quantity =/= quality
while i agree that companion's quests are pretty bland and extremely short, take a look at the morrowind quests, 20 of 31 of fighters guild's quests are LITERALLY kill X quests and 5 of them are very simple fetch quests. morag tong quests? almsot all of them are official executions. almost all of the alms missions for the cult could be done without moving a foot
god damn it people if you want to talk about good quest lines why wont anyone mention the great house ones? those were the only faction quests that were quite immersive
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
oh and
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;41423242]Morrowind's Fighter's Guild had 31 quests total from 5 different quest givers, although there were different ways you could finish the questline which would lead to different results and you couldn't do all of them in one playthrough (what a revolutionary idea).[/QUOTE]
what are you smoking every quest can be done in a single playthrough except for the great house ones
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
and just imagine how short would the morrowind quests be with fast travel? pls people take off your nostalgia goggles, i love the game myself but you have to be blind not to see how flawed morrowind is
[QUOTE=Flip pl;41486471]all you have to do is to do is to beat the fighters guild quests first and then continue with the thieves guild, its not very hard to think "hmmm this quest requires me to kill the head of an another guild, i should probably complete their quests first"[/QUOTE]
Nope, the fourth Balmora Fighters Guild quest (probably the first Fighter's Guild the player will encounter) fucks you over for the Thieves Guild entirely. The only way you can do it is by being in both guilds at once and you have to complete the quest in one specific way.
[QUOTE=Betakta;41486623]Nope, the fourth Balmora Fighters Guild quest (probably the first Fighter's Guild the player will encounter) fucks you over for the Thieves Guild entirely. The only way you can do it is by being in both guilds at once and you have to complete the quest in one specific way.[/QUOTE]
yeah thats true but who doesnt join all the guilds at once anyway?
[QUOTE=Flip pl;41486471]all you have to do is to do is to beat the fighters guild quests first and then continue with the thieves guild, its not very hard to think "hmmm this quest requires me to kill the head of an another guild, i should probably complete their quests first"[/quote]
Wrong, somebody already corrected you on this.
[quote]
quantity =/= quality
while i agree that companion's quests are pretty bland and extremely short, take a look at the morrowind quests, 20 of 31 of fighters guild's quests are LITERALLY kill X quests and 5 of them are very simple fetch quests. morag tong quests? almsot all of them are official executions. almost all of the alms missions for the cult could be done without moving a foot[/quote]
Correct, quality IS greater than quantity. But are you seriously claiming the guilds in Skyrim were of a higher quality than those in Morrowind and Oblivion? Even forgetting Morrowind (ruling out the nostalgia factor) Oblivion's fighters guild had a way more engaging storyline. And, as I said, the questline progressed in a fashion that made sense, from gruntwork to higher-level stuff.
And yes, many quests are simply "go and find/kill x". This is true of many RPGs and all Elder Scrolls games. And Skyrim is no different. An argument can actually be made that Skyrim does this more than previous titles.
I don't know what you're arguing. Are you saying that Skyrim is better than previous games? Or are you simply saying that Morrowind is not a perfect game? Because I agree with the latter.
[quote]
god damn it people if you want to talk about good quest lines why wont anyone mention the great house ones? those were the only faction quests that were quite immersive[/quote]
I agree completely that the Great Houses were the best factions in Morrowind. However, I was trying to compare the Fighters Guild/Companions because Skyrim and Oblivion lack equivalent Great House factions.
[quote]
what are you smoking every quest can be done in a single playthrough except for the great house ones[/quote]
Nope. Depending on whether you side with Sjoring Hard-Heart or Percius Mercius at the end, you take different quests. While the ending doesn't change (you still kill Sjoring either way) there are different ways to complete the guild.
[quote]
and just imagine how short would the morrowind quests be with fast travel? pls people take off your nostalgia goggles, i love the game myself but you have to be blind not to see how flawed morrowind is[/QUOTE]
Yes, I think we all agree that Morrowind is flawed. However, my point still stands. If Bethesda could improve on the aspects of their previous game instead of scrapping them/ignoring the previous problems I think they could make truly great games. For now, there are problems with all of them.
I'm going to be honest here. I don't really like any Bethesda games.
not even their old ones.
I respect that people enjoy them, but I am incapable of having fun with them
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;41490499]I'm going to be honest here. I don't really like any Bethesda games.
not even their old ones.
I respect that people enjoy them, but I am incapable of having fun with them[/QUOTE]
fallout (3+ obviously) and elder scrolls series are only worth playing for mods. base game has always sucked.
[QUOTE=butre;41490508]fallout (3+ obviously) and elder scrolls series are only worth playing for mods. base game has always sucked.[/QUOTE]
Is New Vegas any better than 3? I bought it on sale yesterday as sort of an impulse because I remembered how much I loved 1 and 2 growing up
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;41490530]Is New Vegas any better than 3? I bought it on sale yesterday as sort of an impulse because I remembered how much I loved 1 and 2 growing up[/QUOTE]
Yes, much better characters and story.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;41490530]Is New Vegas any better than 3? I bought it on sale yesterday as sort of an impulse because I remembered how much I loved 1 and 2 growing up[/QUOTE]
Well it's written by the same guys as 1 and 2, so if it's a story you're looking for sit yourself down sally cause chris avelone has a wild ride for you
Aside from that it's just a little balancing and finagling. If you found fallout 3 insufferable from a gameplay perspective not much is different on that front.
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