• Why tipping is a scam - Grade A Under A
    393 replies, posted
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076478]Right, and that makes you a narcissistic borish tourist. You know, the kind that people say US travelers often are. If you don't care about being that, then fine. You won't be arrested for it. Just don't expect people to honor you for it either. [editline]5th April 2016[/editline] It's not convoluted to people living in it. It's normal. It's basic. It's not a big deal at all.[/QUOTE] How does it make me borish? I had already paid for the food and service. Besides, demanding a tip sours the sentiment.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076408]There's no universally accepted cultural norm that all people are expected to give money to beggars.[/QUOTE] Mandatory tipping doesn't exactly seem like a "universally" accepted cultural norm either considering that not all countries seem to partake in it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076491]Again, waiters make more with tips than without it. Don't try and make it seem like your goal is to help the wait staff.[/QUOTE] But that's still the fault of the employer that you would make more with tips than without it.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076408]It's your responsibility to learn it. If you don't want to put the effort into learning the absolute basic cultural issues when going to another country, then you also shouldn't be angry that they get mad at you for it. People don't have an obligation to change their culture so foreign tourists have an easy time. Honestly, that's rediculously narcissistic. It's the customer's fault because it's an established, universally accepted, cultural fact. Everyone knows going in that they are expected to tip. Everyone knows when getting a job as a waiter that they will be getting tips as part of the deal. By going against this cultural norm YOU are the one responsible, not the entire culture around you. [editline]5th April 2016[/editline] There's no universally accepted cultural norm that all people are expected to give money to beggars.[/QUOTE] Hahahahaha So what you're saying is that the customer is responsible for the employees getting fucked in the ass because cultural norms said so?
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076498]How does it make me borish? I had already paid for the food and service. Besides, demanding a tip sours the sentiment.[/QUOTE] You not tipping had already soured the sentiment. [QUOTE]Mandatory tipping doesn't exactly seem like a "universally" accepted cultural norm either considering that not all countries seem to partake in it.[/QUOTE] It's universal within the US.
Another person who thinks American culture is the definitive culture.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50076509]Hahahahaha So what you're saying is that the customer is responsible for the employees getting fucked in the ass because cultural norms said so?[/QUOTE] How is them getting more take home money getting "fucked in the ass?" In fact, no one is getting "fucked in the ass." The customer pays about what they would pay either way, the waiter generally gets more money than they would have otherwise, and the business owner has an easier time making a profit. [editline]5th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076518]Another person who thinks American culture is the definitive culture.[/QUOTE] It's the definitive culture of the US, which is what we're talking about. You're the one forcing your culture onto another country by purposefully not following its cultural norms.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076515]You not tipping had already soured the sentiment. It's universal within the US.[/QUOTE] I already previously stated I only don't tip when the waiter/waitress is rude or if I straight up can't because shit happens.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076533]I already previously stated I only don't tip when the waiter/waitress is rude or if I straight up can't because shit happens.[/QUOTE] You said: "I still wouldn't care enough to bring cash to something I had already paid for."
i'm not going to shell out cash if i don't need to when i'm a struggling college student
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076537]You said: "I still wouldn't care enough to bring cash to something I had already paid for."[/QUOTE] Yeah, because if I had already paid for the event then there's absolutely no reason to bring money, thats why you pay in advance in the first place. Kinda falls in the category of "straight up can't because shit happens".
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076546]Yeah, because if I had already paid for the event then there's absolutely no reason to bring money, thats why you pay in advance in the first place. Kinda falls in the category of "straight up can't because shit happens".[/QUOTE] You said that you still wouldn't bring money even if you knew you were supposed to tip. That's not "shit happens." As a person who lives in the actual culture, I can tell you that when going on a trip where all the food is prepaid people generally check to see if a gratuity is included in their initial payment. If it isn't, then you expect to tip.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076039]You don't have to tip, but most people aren't cheapskate jerks and do. You are free to be a cheapskate jerk, though.[/QUOTE] How about you donate that money for charity then? C'mon you aren't a jerk are you? A "cheapskate" jerk.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076518]Another person who thinks American culture is the definitive culture.[/QUOTE] The fuck are you on about, I dont think anyone including sgman is making the argument that every culture should tip because america does or whatever argument you're trying to make, he's making the argument that if you don't respect the customs and culture of where you're visiting you'll (rightfully) be labeled as selfish and ignorant. It's your responsibility to respect the native countries culture and there's no way around that. [editline]5th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Skerion;50076500]Mandatory tipping doesn't exactly seem like a "universally" accepted cultural norm either considering that not all countries seem to partake in it.[/QUOTE] He doesn't mean LITERALLY the universe when he says universally, you can apply that term to a smaller subgroup i.e. the toothbrush club universally practices good dental hygiene.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076169]If you aren't able to tip, then you shouldn't be eating at that place. Getting rid of tipping would just make that place too expensive for you anyway.[/QUOTE] if you arent able to afford paying your employees the same way [I]everyone else[/I] in the working world gets paid, you shouldnt be running a business. sorry, but the employers are objectively in the wrong. if you cant afford to pay your employees, you cant afford to run business. edit: and if switching to the same payment scheme that [I]literally[/I] everyone else uses causes your profits to lower, boo hoo. the employers have had a free ride on this for long enough. its time for them to pony up their fair share now.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076519]How is them getting more take home money getting "fucked in the ass?" In fact, no one is getting "fucked in the ass." The customer pays about what they would pay either way, the waiter generally gets more money than they would have otherwise, and the business owner has an easier time making a profit.[/QUOTE] That's not what I'm saying at all. If the customer doesn't pay tips, the employee doesn't make enough money because their employer pays them next to nothing. Yet you'll say the customer is an asshole for not giving him the salary that his employer is required to give. You claim it is the responsibility of the customer to pay the waiter's wage because cultural norms said so, as if it were a valid argument. It isn't. Slavery was the cultural norm at some point, that didn't make it right then and retarded american tipping practices aren't right either. The customer is not responsible for the employer not paying their employees what they should, the same way a random pedestrian is not responsible for a beggar's dire situation. Try to think of things in an objective way instead of taking cultural norms as gospel no matter how stupid.
[QUOTE=ChronoBlade;50076564]How about you donate that money for charity then? C'mon you aren't a jerk are you? A "cheapskate" jerk.[/QUOTE] Wow great zinger, too bad he refuted almost exactly the same point word for word at the top of the page
[QUOTE=_Axel;50076588]That's not what I'm saying at all. If the customer doesn't pay tips, the employee doesn't make enough money because their employer pays them next to nothing. Yet you'll say the customer is an asshole for not giving him the salary that his employer is required to give. You claim it is the responsibility of the customer to pay the waiter's wage because cultural norms said so, as if it were a valid argument. It isn't. Slavery was the cultural norm at some point, that didn't make it right then and retarded american tipping practices aren't right either. The customer is not responsible for the employer not paying their employees what they should, the same way a random pedestrian is not responsible for a beggar's dire situation. Try to think of things in an objective way instead of taking cultural norms as gospel no matter how stupid.[/QUOTE] Tipping is now comparable to slavery. Great. You are starting under the assumption that it is always the direct employers responsibility to pay the entirety of a person's wage, but why? Under this cultural norm that just isn't the case. Think of a waiter like a contracted employee who, as part of the contract, is able to collect a portion of the sales personally.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076598]Tipping is now comparable to slavery. Great. You are starting under the assumption that it is always the direct employers responsibility to pay the entirety of a person's wage, but why? Under this cultural norm that just isn't the case. Think of a waiter like a contracted employee who, as part of the contract, is able to collect a portion of the sales personally.[/QUOTE] If you were actually able to grasp the essence of what an argument is you'd realize I was making a counterpoint to show that cultural norms can't be used as the basis of an argument. And if I were to consider your example, the customer is not bound by contract to pay the employee's wage. It is still not their responsibility to pay for it.
I think it's worth noting that waiters pay a percentage of their earnings to Waiter's Assistants and Host's (at least where I work) and that system can make it so that if their customers tip little enough, a waiter can actually PAY to have waited on someone.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50076610]If you were actually able to grasp the essence of what an argument is you'd realize I was making a counterpoint to show that cultural norms are not without question. Now, how about you actually respond to my post?[/QUOTE] I've never argued that it's good BECAUSE it's a cultural norm. You're entire post is based on either a misreading of my arguments or a purposeful strawman.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076630]I've never argued that it's good BECAUSE it's a cultural norm.[/QUOTE] You basically said that it is the cultural norm thus we should conform to it. That's your entire argument.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50076637]You basically said that it is the cultural norm thus we should conform to it. That's your entire argument.[/QUOTE] You should conform to the cultural norms of the place you are visiting unless that cultural norm is actively hurting people, yes. The simple fact is that in this case you hurt people by not conforming, not by conforming.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076598]Tipping is now comparable to slavery. Great. You are starting under the assumption that it is always the direct employers responsibility to pay the entirety of a person's wage, but why? Under this cultural norm that just isn't the case. Think of a waiter like a contracted employee who, as part of the contract, is able to collect a portion of the sales personally.[/QUOTE] Straw-manning doesn't make his point any less valid.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;50076592]Wow great zinger, too bad he refuted almost exactly the same point word for word at the top of the page[/QUOTE] Well well? Is it not the "cultural norm" to donate? Isn't that seen as pristine in most cultures? Don't you get seen as an asshole if you don't donate? After all, you are contributing to saving lives with a small money giveaway. My point was not refuted in any way at all.
[QUOTE=Rebi;50076622]I think it's worth noting that waiters pay a percentage of their earnings to Waiter's Assistants and Host's (at least where I work) and that system can make it so that if their customers tip little enough, a waiter can actually PAY to have waited on someone.[/QUOTE] That's still not the customer's fault.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076657]That's still not the customer's fault.[/QUOTE] Still not nice if they wanna screw over the system by... fucking over waiters and making them pay to do their jobs. Tipping, like it or not, has become an expected way a waiter makes money and the way they're paid accounts for that. They might make minimum wage if they end up making little enough, but living wage isn't livable, especially not with the typical hours a waiter works.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076644]You should conform to the cultural norms of the place you are visiting unless that cultural normal is actively hurting people, yes. The simple fact is that in this case you hurt people by not conforming, not by conforming.[/QUOTE] The cultural norm is actively hurting people because waiters don't get a decent basic wage and have to rely on tips, which they aren't assured to get. It doesn't bring about any benefits either, your entire reasoning of: [QUOTE=sgman91;50076519]In fact, no one is getting "fucked in the ass." The customer pays about what they would pay either way, the waiter generally gets more money than they would have otherwise, and the business owner has an easier time making a profit.[/QUOTE] Hinges on the assumption that money is created out of nowhere; the customers pay the same as they would if wages were integrated into their bill, and waiters make more. Where does that money come from? The tipping system only allows for more inequalities, it doesn't somehow increase the total amount of wealth. Besides, you "actively" hurt beggars too by conforming to the cultural norm that says you're not required to give them money. Does that mean we should consider it one's responsibility to systematically give away money every time they encounter one? That doesn't seem reasonable to me. Systematically giving away money to waiters is basically the same thing. Quit using cultural norms as a shield and try to argue using quantifiable, objective facts.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076648]Straw-manning doesn't make his point any less valid.[/QUOTE] Look, here's a neat list of all the points he made and a response to each one: 1) If the customer doesn't pay tips, the employee doesn't make enough money because their employer pays them next to nothing. Fine, I have no problem with this point. 2) Doing something because it is a cultural norm is not a valid argument. I definitely don't agree with this. It seems to be common sense that one should obey cultural norms unless they hurt people. If I were to go to the Middle East I wouldn't go around trying to shake all the women's hands because I know that that is a cultural taboo. It would be wrong for me to do it anyway even though I know that they wouldn't like it. This goes down to the basic idea that purposefully hurting or offending people is wrong unless for a good reason. 3) Slavery was once a cultural norm, but that didn't make it right. Yes, but this would only matter if I had been arguing that things are made morally correct because they are cultural norms, which I never did. An action does not become correct when it becomes a cultural norm, but purposefully ignoring morally neutral norms is an immoral action. 4) The employer should always be totally responsible for paying the complete wage. This is purely subjective cultural (ironically) opinion and has no basis in any objective fact.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076644]You should conform to the cultural norms of the place you are visiting unless that cultural norm is actively hurting people, yes. The simple fact is that in this case you hurt people by not conforming, not by conforming.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty shitty "cultural norm", to use someone's lack of spare change as an excuse to be arrogantly rude and delibrately do a bad job.
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