• Why tipping is a scam - Grade A Under A
    393 replies, posted
Saying you make less than minimum wage and rely on tips is factually wrong. [B](this is what people argued at the beginning of the thread)[/B] Saying you want tips so you can make more than minimum wage is firstly, immoral if you argued the above before switching to this stance, and secondly, a non-argument. [B](this is what people switched to arguing in around the middle of the thread)[/B] Putting completely unwarranted and unnecessary social pressure on a person to give you extra money which you're in no way entitled to just because you want more money for no actual reason is idiotic.[B] (this is what people are arguing now)[/B] At the end of the day, you either make the same as everybody else, which isn't a lot and everybody sympathizes with that, or you come out on top and make even more than everybody else in which case good for you, that's great... If however, at the end of the day you make below minimum wage, your boss is in actual fact doing something incredibly illegal and you should probably get that sorted out instead of just taking it and relying on tips. Of course the situation won't be painless, that's life. Shit's hard and people are going to try and fuck you over for their own personal gain whenever they can.
Imagine, being called a 'borish asshole' for only having enough money on you to pay for your meal.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076648]Straw-manning doesn't make his point any less valid.[/QUOTE] Are you serious?
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076719]Imagine, being called a 'borish asshole' for only having enough money on you to pay for your meal.[/QUOTE] Imagine calling someone an asshole for not tipping you. I thought tips were something you were grateful and thankful for. Something you appreciated, not expected. I've never been to America but here in the UK I'll tip someone if they go out of their way to help me . For example at a Chinese restaurant if I ask for something slightly different than what's on the menu. I won't tip someone for simply doing their job, and in no way are they doing anything wrong by not taking money to something that has already been paid for.
[QUOTE=Leestons;50076747]Imagine calling someone an asshole for not tipping you. I thought tips were something you were grateful and thankful for. Something you appreciated, not expected. I've never been to America but here in the UK I'll tip someone if they go out of their way to help me . For example at a Chinese restaurant if I ask for something slightly different than what's on the menu. I won't tip someone for simply doing their job, and in no way are they doing anything wrong by not taking money to something that has already been paid for.[/QUOTE] Imagine taking your culture, directly applying to a country with a different culture, and then mocking them for not being the same.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076765]Imagine taking your culture, directly applying to a country with a different culture, and then mocking them for not being the same.[/QUOTE] I'm fine with mocking other countries' cultural norms when they don't make any bloody sense.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50076765]Imagine taking your culture, directly applying to a country with a different culture, and then mocking them for not being the same.[/QUOTE] Using "cultural norms" to pressure people out of the money they worked just as hard as you do to get for themselves just because you want more money for yourself is virtually the same thing as your boss and the tipping system is doing to you, screwing you over and expecting you to just fall in line and deal with it. If tips weren't this stupid socially mandatory concept that we hold here in the US, you'd still get tips. That doesn't magically stop. People are saying that it shouldn't be expected of a person to tip, and the people who look down on others for not tipping are part of the problem.
I hate tipping in all forms. And I hate the social stigma against it. I tip but not a whole lot. I don't make a huge amount of money and I don't wanna spend more paying the guy. I wish tipping would go away.
The fact that tipping is a social norm sucks, I wish it weren't, but other things must change first. People become servers now because its flexible on hours, has few prerequisites, and has the [I]potential[/I] to actually be livable on 40 hours. Lemme explain why I tip. I don't tip because I [I]have [/I]to, I tip because I [I]want[/I] to. I tip because dealing with people sucks and I want to thank the server personally for providing good service. If the service [I]really really sucks,[/I] then I tip very little. I never -don't- tip, because tips are feedback. Tipped well means I was pleased with the service, tipped very little means I probably left incredibly unhappy with the service. Not the food, mind you, thats a different story and I won't penalize the server for bad food because its not their fault. The wage sucks for the vast majority of servers, it really sucks. Minimum wage isn't livable and because I can't possibly know if the server just doesn't have the drive to do anything more with their life than be a server, i'll tip em all. I'd rather be nice to everyone then punish servers who might have that job because thats all there is or thats all their schedule allows. The type of tip also varies depending on the restaurant. A lower end place that most certainly pays 'tipped wage' style I'll prefer to tip in cash. If the server chooses to under-report their tips at the end of the day to get a little more money then fine let them do that. Higher end places that either don't do 'tipped wage' or pay better I'll tip on the card because I know they're better paid and don't need to cheat their reports to make it to the next week. TL:DR, I tip because I'm sympathetic. Maybe too sympathetic, but the job sucks and I want to make sure that at the very least [I]I[/I] made their day or week just a little better.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;50076898]The fact that tipping is a social norm sucks, I wish it weren't, but other things must change first. People become servers now because its flexible on hours, has few prerequisites, and has the [I]potential[/I] to actually be livable on 40 hours. Lemme explain why I tip. I don't tip because I [I]have [/I]to, I tip because I [I]want[/I] to. I tip because dealing with people sucks and I want to thank the server personally for providing good service. If the service [I]really really sucks,[/I] then I tip very little. I never -don't- tip, because tips are feedback. Tipped well means I was pleased with the service, tipped very little means I probably left incredibly unhappy with the service. Not the food, mind you, thats a different story and I won't penalize the server for bad food because its not their fault. The wage sucks for the vast majority of servers, it really sucks. Minimum wage isn't livable and because I can't possibly know if the server just doesn't have the drive to do anything more with their life than be a server, i'll tip em all. I'd rather be nice to everyone then punish servers who might have that job because thats all there is or thats all their schedule allows. The type of tip also varies depending on the restaurant. A lower end place that most certainly pays 'tipped wage' style I'll prefer to tip in cash. If the server chooses to under-report their tips at the end of the day to get a little more money then fine let them do that. Higher end places that either don't do 'tipped wage' or pay better I'll tip on the card because I know they're better paid and don't need to cheat their reports to make it to the next week. TL:DR, I tip because I'm sympathetic. Maybe too sympathetic, but the job sucks and I want to make sure that at the very least [I]I[/I] made their day or week just a little better.[/QUOTE] I don't know how you could see not tipping as punishment. Do you consider it punishment for not applauding someone for any action?
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076937]I don't know how you could see not tipping as punishment. Do you consider it punishment for not applauding someone for any action?[/QUOTE] I don't see not tipping as noticable punishment because of cases where you literally can't afford to tip or simply forgot to. Tipping low is an unmistakable message to the server that I was seriously unhappy with their service. If I wasn't happy with the service, I want them to know it and then learn from it.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;50077019]I don't see not tipping as noticable punishment because of cases where you literally can't afford to tip or simply forgot to. Tipping low is an unmistakable message to the server that I was seriously unhappy with their service. If I wasn't happy with the service, I want them to know it and then learn from it.[/QUOTE] Only a minuscule fraction of the population actually bases tipping based on the service. Most people give out the same amount regardless of how well they're served. This means that most servers will only think that you're a cunt for giving less money, not that they did a poor job. Tipping is a fucking stupid system that stems from greedy owners who don't want to pay their servers more. Doesn't matter how you interpret it.
Has anyone in the thread actually argued in favor of the tipping system? Afaik people have just been saying what I said earlier: [QUOTE=Duck M.;50076197]OK: This is how I see it. Not tipping because you disagree with the practice is nonsensical and meaningless. Your conscientious objection is a drop in the vast and complex ocean of tipping culture in the US. If you disagree with the practice you should raise support for abolishing it, talk to your local representatives, organize and petition, etc. Not tipping just because you want the practice to go away doesn't do anything and only hurts your servers. That's my bottom line.[/QUOTE] And I dont really think that's all that unreasonable of an argument to make.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50077142]Too much effort for something not really in control of the consumer.[/QUOTE] It's not in control of the consumer because people aren't putting any effort into changing it, which is what I'm suggesting people do. [QUOTE]Why would I go organize things and petition things when I could just order take out Like damn I don't have time to do all that when I just want some food[/QUOTE] Well I mean whatever floats your boat I guess
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;50077064]Only a minuscule fraction of the population actually bases tipping based on the service. Most people give out the same amount regardless of how well they're served. This means that most servers will only think that you're a cunt for giving less money, not that they did a poor job.[/QUOTE] Well if they want to think that then fuck em. General rule is if you want more in tips over time, earn it. [QUOTE=Ganerumo;50077064] Tipping is a fucking stupid system that stems from greedy owners who don't want to pay their servers more. Doesn't matter how you interpret it.[/QUOTE] I agree, its a fucking stupid system and I wish it didn't exist. But, the system exists and I'm not about to punish the servers for something completely out of their control.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;50077133]Has anyone in the thread actually argued in favor of the tipping system?[/QUOTE] Not necessarily arguing 'for it', but I've been arguing for maintaining it. By law (apparently, but I don't live in the US), employers are required to pay waiters the difference up to the full minimum wage if the waiter does not earn enough in their waiter's wage and tips. But here's another thing: The tips that waiters receive could easily push them above the full minimum wage. If a waiter receives two $4 tips in an hour, something that seems incredibly reasonable, the waiter receives $2.13 waiter's wage plus $8 in tips for $10.13 earned in that hour. If the waiter's wage were brought up to the full minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, customers may feel that they no longer need to tip to assure the economic security of the waiter (given that apparently most people tip based on a percentage of the cost of the service, not the quality of the service itself). So customers stop tipping, and that same waiter who earned $10.13 per hour (and I imagine that's actually pretty conservative for a waiter's hourly earnings) is now down to $7.25 per hour. Waiters could easily be worse off if the 'tipping system' were abolished. And to be honest I can never recall reading online about a person, who works as a waiter, saying the tipping system should go. The people I see advocating for this are youthful, 'social justice' (despite, ironically, waiters being worse off if the tipping system were to go) kinds of people. [editline]6th April 2016[/editline] What needs to be done about tipping in the US is: - Make sure that employers are paying waiters the difference up to the full minimum wage, if the waiter does not earn enough from the waiter's wage and tips. - Prevent employers from taking cuts from the tips received by their waiters. The employer receives their cut from the cost of the service provided.
From what I can find a lot of European countries add a mandatory "service charge" at restaurants anyways so I don't see why some people are complaining about having to pay extra for their meal when they have to do so at home anyways. At least tips are technically optional.
[QUOTE=HybridTheroy;50076518]Another person who thinks American culture is the definitive culture.[/QUOTE] That's just what a Johnny Mapleleaf would say.
[QUOTE=S31-Syntax;50077286]Well if they want to think that then fuck em. General rule is if you want more in tips over time, earn it. I agree, its a fucking stupid system and I wish it didn't exist. But, the system exists and I'm not about to punish the servers for something completely out of their control.[/QUOTE] In the one occasion I went to the US I also paid tips at restaurants because I'm aware I'm not a one man ideological army, but I also knew better than to think the servers or anyone else expected a tip proportional to the quality of service.
[QUOTE=sb27;50078526]Not necessarily arguing 'for it', but I've been arguing for maintaining it. By law (apparently, but I don't live in the US), employers are required to pay waiters the difference up to the full minimum wage if the waiter does not earn enough in their waiter's wage and tips. But here's another thing: The tips that waiters receive could easily push them above the full minimum wage. If a waiter receives two $4 tips in an hour, something that seems incredibly reasonable, the waiter receives $2.13 waiter's wage plus $8 in tips for $10.13 earned in that hour. If the waiter's wage were brought up to the full minimum wage of $7.25 per hour, customers may feel that they no longer need to tip to assure the economic security of the waiter (given that apparently most people tip based on a percentage of the cost of the service, not the quality of the service itself). So customers stop tipping, and that same waiter who earned $10.13 per hour (and I imagine that's actually pretty conservative for a waiter's hourly earnings) is now down to $7.25 per hour. Waiters could easily be worse off if the 'tipping system' were abolished. And to be honest I can never recall reading online about a person, who works as a waiter, saying the tipping system should go. The people I see advocating for this are youthful, 'social justice' (despite, ironically, waiters being worse off if the tipping system were to go) kinds of people. [editline]6th April 2016[/editline] What needs to be done about tipping in the US is: - Make sure that employers are paying waiters the difference up to the full minimum wage, if the waiter does not earn enough from the waiter's wage and tips. - Prevent employers from taking cuts from the tips received by their waiters. The employer receives their cut from the cost of the service provided.[/QUOTE] You were doing good until you said the only people arguing against the tipping system are SJWs which is just made up garbage. The people who argue against it are mostly just people who don't want to be called a fucking dick for not tipping because the misinformed masses believe the "we live off tips not tipping is hurting us!!!" schlock.
[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;50080481]The people who argue against it are mostly just people who don't want to be called a fucking dick for not tipping because the misinformed masses believe the "we live off tips not tipping is hurting us!!!" schlock.[/QUOTE] here's the thing tho it does hurt them when their employer is a dick and doesn't make up the difference and it's safe to assume basically all employers are like this because A: it's easy to cover up, B: it saves on costs, and C: there's little to no concern of legal fighting because most employees don't want to cause any trouble mostly out of fear of making their job worse I'm not saying it's the customers responsibility to give a waiter a living wage because their boss is an asshole, I hate tipping too, but it exists for a reason and by not doing it you aren't helping the problem at all.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50080705]I'm not saying it's the customers responsibility to give a waiter a living wage because their boss is an asshole, I hate tipping too, but it exists for a reason and by not doing it you aren't helping the problem at all.[/QUOTE] Not giving away to charity isn't helping people either, yet nobody is seen as an asshole if they don't.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50080718]Not giving away to charity isn't helping people either, yet nobody is seen as an asshole if they don't.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty terrible comparison because you aren't being approached and serviced by someone who does charity work. You are being approached and serviced by a waiter.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50080705]here's the thing tho it does hurt them when their employer is a dick and doesn't make up the difference and it's safe to assume basically all employers are like this because A: it's easy to cover up, B: it saves on costs, and C: there's little to no concern of legal fighting because most employees don't want to cause any trouble mostly out of fear of making their job worse I'm not saying it's the customers responsibility to give a waiter a living wage because their boss is an asshole, I hate tipping too, but it exists for a reason and by not doing it you aren't helping the problem at all.[/QUOTE] Since all of this has been covered already, just see these posts. [QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;50076718]At the end of the day, you either make the same as everybody else, which isn't a lot and everybody sympathizes with that, or you come out on top and make even more than everybody else in which case good for you, that's great... If however, at the end of the day you make below minimum wage, your boss is in actual fact doing something incredibly illegal and you should probably get that sorted out instead of just taking it and relying on tips. Of course the situation won't be painless, that's life. Shit's hard and people are going to try and fuck you over for their own personal gain whenever they can.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MaverickIB;50070363]What a silly argument. If I work 40 hours and my employer pays me 30 after saying, "nuh uh you didn't work 40 hours," I'd be calling up every attorney specializing in workers rights in no time flat. Not sure if you're hoping I don't know it exists or you just don't know about it, but attorneys LOVE cases like that. My sister is an attorney who has worked cases like that, and they often take the case with no charge to the client. The agreement is they get paid when the case is won, because it's pretty much a guaranteed win/paycheck. If you didn't know that's the case, then you need to call a fucking attorney right now and get the money you've earned. There's a metric fuckton of people out there willing to take up arms on your side. If your pay is getting fucked, 10 bucks says your co-workers are getting fucked too and oh boy those attorneys will be chomping at the bit to take every bit of what that restaurant is worth as a paycheck. You get the money you rightfully earned, your shitty boss gets fucked, boo hoo you gotta find a new job but you weren't exactly in a good spot getting fucked out of wages by your previous one.[/QUOTE] And at the end of the day that's not even the point. The point is people who don't tip for whatever reason, don't have the money, forgot about tipping, just don't feel like it, whatever... These people shouldn't be looked down on because it's not their responsibility. If you want to think that one guy who stands up and loudly proclaims he refuses to tip out of some sort of misguided protest is a jerk then go for it, that guy's probably a goober, but leave everybody else out of it.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50080728]That's a pretty terrible comparison because you aren't being approached and serviced by someone who does charity work. You are being approached and serviced by a waiter.[/QUOTE] And that waiter's job is to service people, for which they are supposed to receive a salary. They're not doing me a special favor, just their job. I don't owe a waiter any more than I owe a charity.
[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;50080739]Since all of this has been covered already, just see these posts. And at the end of the day that's not even the point. The point is people who don't tip for whatever reason. Don't have the money, forgot about tipping, just don't feel like it, whatever... These people shouldn't be looked down on since it's not their responsibility. If you want to think a guy who stands up and loudly proclaims he refuses to tip out of some sort of misguided protest then go for it, that guy's probably a goober, but leave everybody else out of it.[/QUOTE] And that's a lot easier said than done. You're going to be working ad wait-staff because of one of three things. 1: you are still in school and just need some money, 2: you are floating between jobs, or 3: there's not a whole lot else you can do. There's no person who goes "yeah! Let me climb the career ladder in waiting tables!!". It's a dead end job and the only reason to ever have it is because you need the money. And employers know this which is why they are so inclined to push their employees around. For people who don't need it, it's no big deal. They just leave. For people who DO need it, what sounds better? Filing a lawsuit and in the process completely destroying your current job? I get that you may be able to do it for free, but what happens after that? What happens if you legitimately can't find another job for a few months? That is what keeps people from doing it.
And none of that is a legitimate reason to perpetuate the tipping culture we currently have.
[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;50080805]And none of that is a legitimate reason to perpetuate the tipping culture we currently have.[/QUOTE] So the people who can't do it just get the shit end of the stick?
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50080812]So the people who can't do it just get the shit end of the stick?[/QUOTE] If they don't want to take responsibility for themselves, then yeah, kinda. The world is an unfair place, people are going to screw you over when they can. Everybody is sympathetic about this, but being put in a shitty situation doesn't mean you get to put other people in a shitty situation just so you can feel better about yours. You have alternatives. Those alternatives might not be good, but that doesn't really matter. It's not okay to pressure other people out of their money just because you're being screwed out of yours, especially when there is something you can do about it. [editline]boop[/editline] And I'd also like to point out that we've now gone full circle and reverted back to the "they don't make minimum wage" argument even though we just got done arguing that waiters often make more than minimum wage with tips.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50080812]So the people who can't do it just get the shit end of the stick?[/QUOTE] Yes, it's a shitty system.
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