[QUOTE=Duck M.;50069502]You have every right to say that the tipping system here is dumb (probably everyone thinks that) but I have no respect for people that dont tip because they object to the system, or, even worse, because they dont think that the job that the servers is doing is worth pay.[/QUOTE]
And by continuing tipping, this whole problem goes through a continuous cycle. Where the employer thinks it's alright pay below minimum wage, as long as they get a tip. Although that it actually illegal and more morally incorrect compared to not tipping. If you don't tip, you have done nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. Maybe morally incorrect in front of friends or family, but not illegal.
I know you don't want other people who don't know America to not comment on this issue, but please. Everyone knows that giving paying way below minimum wage to an employee is bullshit.
What's the big deal in not paying if the employee makes minimum wage no matter what, anyway? The only difference is whose pocket the money comes from. Why should waiters care whether it came from randoms or from their employer?
[QUOTE=Dysentery;50069063]ok but the thing is, servers don't make $7.25 or $15 an hour. we make $2.13 an hour, and the rest is made up in tips. if i made $10/hr as a server, i would not give a shit if no one ever tipped me, because i'm getting paid regardless. but because of the fact that restaurants are allowed to skimp out on paying their workers and instead ask for the customers to provide a living wage instead, you not tipping is pretty shitty. blame the restaurants, sure. as a server, i don't want to rely on tips any more than you want to be asked to tip. but it is how it is[/QUOTE]
Just so people know this isn't true...
It is true that waiters are payed a standard wage of below the minimum however, people completely misunderstand what that means. Using your examples of 2.13 an hour and the minimum of 7.25, you are payed $17.04 for an 8 hour shift, at which point your total in tips is added. If you didn't make enough in tips to equal $58 (what you would've made if you were payed minimum wage) the company/your boss/whatever is required by law to make up the difference.
It's a shitty system that needs to be abandoned, but it's entirely untrue that waiters live off of tips. If your boss is paying you a [I]total[/I] of below minimum after tips are counted then he's running a shitty illegal business and you should probably turn him in to the proper authorities.
And conversely I'm not really encouraged to tip someone who provided good service when I know their boss will basically pocket the money I give them if they don't make enough in tips.
I've been told that if I'm not going to tip, I better ask a friend for a ride, ask a friend for a haircut, make food at home, never sit down in a casino, never sit down in a bar, etc. I decided it's not okay to go through life doing those things and not paying my dues for their time. It's okay to not believe in tipping, but to the service industry, that's the same as not believing in karma, so you should respectfully avoid their services.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50070122]Because as stated before, its often employers will just say the tips werent properly accounted for to not have to pay the full wages
Illegal? Yeah
Can a less than min wage worker afford the legal battle + unemployment for challenging their boss? Not likely[/QUOTE]
So the law is basically pointless?
[QUOTE=Pretty Obscure;50070106]Just so people know this isn't true...
It is true that waiters are payed a standard wage of below the minimum however, people completely misunderstand what that means. Using your examples of 2.13 an hour and the minimum of 7.25, you are payed $17.04 for an 8 hour shift, at which point your total in tips is added. If you didn't make enough in tips to equal $58 (what you would've made if you were payed minimum wage) the company/your boss/whatever is required by law to make up the difference.
It's a shitty system that needs to be abandoned, but it's entirely untrue that waiters live off of tips. If your boss is paying you a [I]total[/I] of below minimum after tips are counted then he's running a shitty illegal business and you should probably turn him in to the proper authorities.[/QUOTE]
It seems opinions about this are a bit conflicted.
i just got home from my service job and i want to punch a good deal of you in the throat
[QUOTE=arby26;50070126]I've been told that if I'm not going to tip, I better ask a friend for a ride, ask a friend for a haircut, make food at home, never sit down in a casino, never sit down in a bar, etc. I decided it's not okay to go through life doing those things and not paying my dues for their time. It's okay to not believe in tipping, but to the service industry, that's the same as not believing in karma, so you should respectfully avoid their services.[/QUOTE]
lol OK so basically they believe they deserve special treatment compared to other minimum wage workers and tell you to fuck off if you disagree? I'd gladly refrain from tipping such assholes.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50069182]it's actually illegal to pay people $2.13 an hour in america
if waiters don't make up that in tips their employer /must/ pay the difference or else they are breaking the law[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MaverickIB;50069291]Protip, you're paying the same damn taxes and crap everyone else is paying. Most people get a shitload of their paychecks taken out also. Welcome to the world.
Also, if your employer is outright breaking the law by not allowing you to meet the equivalent of minimum wage, you need to file a lawsuit. End of story. Bottom line. If you aren't making the equivalent of minimum wage based on how many hours you've worked, then you need to file a lawsuit. If your wage is knocked down to 2.50 or whatever the fuck and you still break the threshold of minimum wage equivalent due to tips, even if it's a measly 3 dollars more, that's 3 dollars more than someone making minimum wage.
Your arguments suck. Waiters/waitresses HAVE to make the equivalent of minimum wage at the very least. If they aren't they have every reason to file a lawsuit because their employer is breaking the law. What most employers will do is simply fire your ass for not breaking even because it's piss easy to break even as a waiter.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Vilous;50069454]Given someone in the thread has mentioned multiple times that [B]a minimum wage MUST be met by the time paychecks are rolled out regardless[/B], it is VERY clear that a lot of people are actually unaware of this rule. This perpetuates the notion that 'tipping is for the well-being of the servicers' -- and while that's fantastic, I am very happy with the notion of supporting others -- it's just showing that 1) tipping actually shouldn't be a thing and 2) this unheard law is actually putting servers at the same minimum wage as any other shite low-end job. 'Tips' are not necessary -- a livable fucking wage [I]IS[/I].[/QUOTE]
wow it's almost like employers don't break laws constantly and cut corners on employee wages to make as much money as possible with higher profit margins...whoa, what a crazy world. surely no employer would ever conceive of doing such a thing. after all they wouldn't want their absolutely dependent staff on $2.13/hr because it's all they're capable of doing in their life at the current moment to file a lawsuit against them which would just be thrown out and then promptly fire the employee that tried to get rightful access to their wages, haha, preposterous!
legally i'm supposed to be paid overtime too, guess what? i'm not. And I'm not going to do shit about it becaus I can't afford a lawyer. And even if I could it's not worth it.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50070184]wow it's almost like employers don't break laws constantly and cut corners on employee wages to make as much money as possible with higher profit margins...whoa, what a crazy world. surely no employer would ever conceive of doing such a thing. after all they wouldn't want their absolutely dependent staff on $2.13/hr because it's all they're capable of doing in their life at the current moment to file a lawsuit against them which would just be thrown out and then promptly fire the employee that tried to get rightful access to their wages, haha, preposterous![/QUOTE]
So that's how you do things in the west?
You just let employers break the law and do whatever they please? What's stopping them from not paying you altogether?
What are unions? What are class-action lawsuits?
Just think of tipping as part of an employee's wage being directly based on how well they do their job.
Good waiters love tips. They make far more than they would if they made a set wage.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50070197]So that's how you do things in the west?
You just let employers break the law and do whatever they please? What's stopping them from not paying you altogether?
What are unions? What are class-action lawsuits?[/QUOTE]
Restaurants and small businesses aren't going to have unions. More importantly, fighting legal battles [I]requires money[/I]. If you start shit with an employer, you are almost guaranteed to spend thousands of dollars and after months of legal fighting you will probably win, but by that point you won't care any more because you just spent thousands of your hard earned dollars and are now in debt.
They'll also likely fire you afterwards anyway. Legally they can not especially with wage disputes but they will do all they can to make your work life a living hell. It happens all the time. The only power you have would be to let the cat out of the bag when you can actually quit and move on to something else...but most people can't.
[QUOTE=squids_eye;50069641]Service workers don't deserve tips, they deserve to be paid a decent wage by their employer like everyone else instead of relying on the kindness of strangers.[/QUOTE]
e.g. the cooks in back who work harder often for minimum wage and often without a share of the tips, despite the fact that they did most of the work
[QUOTE=.Lain;50069122]The US isn't the entire world.[/QUOTE]
I am really struggling to think of a country where welding is not profitable outside of 3rd world countries.
The biggest thing I don't get about tipping is the amount of money you end up tipping is always relative to the amount you spent on food.
SO if I get $12 worth of food, and my service is the best I've ever had, I might want to tip a bit extra, go for that 20% tip, giving $2.40.
Next day I go to another restaurant, maybe a bit fancier, and I end up spending $75 on food, and my service is mediocre to maybe a bit bad for whatever reason. I tip the standard percentage, 15%.
That mediocre waiter just got tipped $11.50, almost 5X the amount as the better server, only because the second restaurant cost more to eat at. I just don't get it.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50070222]e.g. the cooks in back who work harder often for minimum wage and often without a share of the tips, despite the fact that they did most of the work[/QUOTE]
cooks always get tipped out
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50070212]Restaurants and small businesses aren't going to have unions. More importantly, fighting legal battles [I]requires money[/I]. If you start shit with an employer, you are almost guaranteed to spend thousands of dollars and after months of legal fighting you will probably win, but by that point you won't care any more because you just spent thousands of your hard earned dollars and are now in debt.
They'll also likely fire you afterwards anyway. Legally they can not especially with wage disputes but they will do all they can to make your work life a living hell. It happens all the time. The only power you have would be to let the cat out of the bag when you can actually quit and move on to something else...but most people can't.[/QUOTE]
So you have to rely on other people paying your salary in place of your employer? That's basically begging. How can you be okay with that situation?
[QUOTE=ThePanther;50070225]The biggest thing I don't get about tipping is the amount of money you end up tipping is always relative to the amount you spent on food.
SO if I get $12 worth of food, and my service is the best I've ever had, I might want to tip a bit extra, go for that 20% tip, giving $2.40.
Next day I go to another restaurant, maybe a bit fancier, and I end up spending $75 on food, and my service is mediocre to maybe a bit bad for whatever reason. I tip the standard percentage, 15%.
That mediocre waiter just got tipped $11.50, almost 5X the amount as the better server, only because the second restaurant cost more to eat at. I just don't get it.[/QUOTE]
I have not met a single person on this planet that actually sits there and pulls out a pen and paper or a calculator to figure out what percentage of the bill they need to give. Ffs just throw down a $5 or the rest of your $1's, what difference does it make? I usually just do whatever my leftover change is for the whole bill.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50070184]wow it's almost like employers don't break laws constantly and cut corners on employee wages to make as much money as possible with higher profit margins...whoa, what a crazy world. surely no employer would ever conceive of doing such a thing. after all they wouldn't want their absolutely dependent staff on $2.13/hr because it's all they're capable of doing in their life at the current moment to file a lawsuit against them which would just be thrown out and then promptly fire the employee that tried to get rightful access to their wages, haha, preposterous!
legally i'm supposed to be paid overtime too, guess what? i'm not. And I'm not going to do shit about it becaus I can't afford a lawyer. And even if I could it's not worth it.[/QUOTE]
then find a better job
Don't dump your shitty employer's responsibility on customers. I always tip 20%, but your crappy guilt trip has nothing to do with me whether I do or don't tip.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;50070150]i just got home from my service job and i want to punch a good deal of you in the throat[/QUOTE]
You're getting angry at the wrong people, no one wants you to have to live on a joke of a wage but that doesn't mean they also have to agree with such a shitty system. If anyone deserves a punch in the throat it's the people who don't want to pay their employees a fair, steady wage.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50070239]So you have to rely on other people paying your salary in place of your employer? That's basically begging. How can you be okay with that situation?[/QUOTE]
Nobody is, which is the whole point. But there's nothing that can be done about it. It's a vicious cycle. Imagine that all you can do in your life is work in a restaurant as wait-staff (this is basically anybody ever who works as wait-staff). What else are you gonna do? Start some shit, potentially lose your job or make it worse, or just deal with it and keep bringing home a meager paycheck that at least pays the bills and provides food?
Pick one or the other.
Edit
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50070244]then find a better job
Don't dump your shitty employer's responsibility on customers. I always tip 20%, but your crappy guilt trip has nothing to do with me whether I do or don't tip.[/QUOTE]
And I don't work as a waiter. But I understand why the system exists and I understand the complications behind it.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;50070234]cooks always get tipped out[/QUOTE]
tell that to the two restaurants I've worked at :v:
[QUOTE=squids_eye;50070247]You're getting angry at the wrong people, no one wants you to have to live on a joke of a wage but that doesn't mean they also have to agree with such a shitty system. If anyone deserves a punch in the throat it's the people who don't want to pay their employees a fair, steady wage.[/QUOTE]
believe me when i say that i would simply like my employer to fork it over instead of customers but you're also getting angry at the wrong person when you don't tip.
[editline]4th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50070255]tell that to the two restaurants I've worked at :v:[/QUOTE]
shitty
This is a heated as hell thread and people are going to get angry at me but the waiters in this thread essentially are demonizing people who dont tip saying that its a broken system and they dont want to take part in it either but they won't get paid even minimum wage and to pay into the tipping system regardless so they make minimum wage.
That's really fucking stupid. Don't say its a broken system you dont even want to partake in, then tell us to deal with it and tip because you aren't paid otherwise.
Literally it's illegal for you to not make minimum wage and employers are obligated by law to do so. You can sue and if you objectively prove you weren't paid your wages, as easy as displaying a pay stub, a very clear cut very easy win in a legal situation that technically even you yourself can do and not even hire a lawyer.
If you still say you can't do that and that its a broken system but were cunts for not tipping cause otherwise you dont make enough money: Then get another fucking job.
'BUT I CAN'T GET ANOTHER JOB ITS HARD TO EVEN GET THIS ONE JOBS ARE HARD TO COME BY WHERE I AM I GO TO SCHOOL AND ONLY RESTAURANTS ARE OPEN WHEN IM OFF SCHOOL SO I CAN ONLY WORK THERE I HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE'
No you do. You always do. Keep looking keep applying keep working as you do. If you can't find another job you're really saying that you're going to work as a waiter until the day you die?
I tip only if i felt the service was deserving. I dont proudly say im not tipping cause my porkchop was cold, i just don't tip. When i do tip i'll tip about 15, maybe 18%. I get shat on by my friends for tipping before tax and for only tipping 15%. I worked in jobs like the waiter and know exactly what its like, only i was barred from receiving tips and still had to work my ass off in the food service and retail industry making petty cash and horrifically low rates to help me pay for school. You will always be paid minimum wage and if you arent and can prove it with a pay stub, its not even a lengthy or expensive legal process to get your dues. It's actually really god damn easy and straight forward and clear cut.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;50070251]Nobody is, which is the whole point. But there's nothing that can be done about it. It's a vicious cycle. Imagine that all you can do in your life is work in a restaurant as wait-staff (this is basically anybody ever who works as wait-staff). What else are you gonna do? Start some shit, potentially lose your job or make it worse, or just deal with it and keep bringing home a meager paycheck that at least pays the bills and provides food?
Pick one or the other.[/QUOTE]
And if the customers don't want to contribute to such a perverse scheme, do you blame them?
[QUOTE]And I don't work as a waiter. But I understand why the system exists and I understand the complications behind it.[/QUOTE]
You understand why the system exists? Why does it exist other than to excuse exploiting employees?
[QUOTE=_Axel;50070280]And if the customer don't want to contribute to such a perverse scheme, do you blame them?
You understand why the system exists? Why does it exist other than to excuse exploiting employees?[/QUOTE]
I don't blame the customers at all, it's their prerogative if they want to tip. And if they don't tip it's perfectly understandable; it's a contribution to a corrupt system. And the system exists solely for the purpose of exploiting employees. I don't agree with it and I don't like it, but the only way a change can be made with it is if every single person woke up tomorrow and agreed to stop tipping. That would FORCE restaurant employers to actually do something about it.
It's easy for them to cover up one or two employees not making up their wages in tips, but if all of their staff didn't make it up they would have to have some kind of explanation for the law if they decided to just not pay it out. The reason I continue to perpetuate the problem is because I know this won't happen.
Tipping has honestly strained friendships of mine. Just last week i was at a bar and i got two pints and a burger and my total was 10 bucks.
I tossed in 12 dollars. Technically 20% but then my friend gets annoyed at me. Says i didn't factor tax in and that the twenty percent i think im tipping is actually around 14%. Pulled out a calculator and proved it to me. Then recited my history of shitty tipping wherein he proves i tip almost constantly at a firm 15% while he always tips about 25-30% because 'hes a generous tipper and a nice guy'
He got super pissy at me for calling him out for using the tipping thing as a way to just brag and he hasn't talked to me since then.
Shit's bullshit.
Also, for the waiters in this thread, have you ever actually talked to your bosses about making under minimum wage? I haven't seen any of you provide a response your boss has actually given you.
It's super easy just to forget or accidentally overlook the payment of a single employee. You're definitely not going to get paid your dues if you just let it go by without saying anything. And unless your boss is a huge dick that isn't afraid of lawsuits, chances are it'll go over fine without much fuss.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50070280]And if the customers don't want to contribute to such a perverse scheme, do you blame them?
You understand why the system exists? Why does it exist other than to excuse exploiting employees?[/QUOTE]
The reason it exists is to encourage waiters to be nice to customers, not necessarily in an exploitive way. In addition, some waiters at some restaurants do have the opportunity to make a decent chunk of cash above minimum wage. I've known people to get $200 on especially busy nights.
It'd be exploitive if employers didn't have to pay minimum wage, but again, waiters are supposed to make minimum wage no matter what. Tipping gives them an opportunity to make more than that.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;50070291]If someone doesnt want to participate in the draconian evil scheme of tipping, they should learn how to cook and stay at home, or eat fastfood
You abstaining from paying an extra 5 dollars on your 20 dollar meal isnt telling the employer shit and just makes you look like a greedy person
I dont like that i have to pay sales tax for digital products but it doesnt give me the right to fuck with my taxes to make up the difference[/QUOTE]
So waiters are entitled to their tips? On what grounds? Their pay is supposed to be included in the base bill. Their employer is required by law to pay them minimum wage no matter what. Should I systematically tip under the assumption that the restaurant is going to break the law and deny them their pay? Why should I be responsible for that business's ills?
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