[QUOTE=Kommodore;50070527]on behalf of all waiters, cooks, bartenders, baristas and so on who heretofore have been using your tips to improve their lives and who hereafter many of you will no longer be tipping because you watched a funny video on youtube i'd like to thank you for taking a moral stand. the world is sure to heed your selfless call to action.[/QUOTE]
positing people who don't tip as your enemies will only lead to you continuing to be exploited, which is what you currently are right now.
btw i tip
[QUOTE=butre;50070603]if after tips you don't make at least minimum wage then the employer is required to reimburse you.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but why is the employer not required to pay you minimum wage outright?
Tips should complementary, i.e. on top of everything else. Tips should not be for paying someone's basic wage.
I'm going to give an example of a very popular and successful small restaurant in my city. Will it apply to all restaurants that adopt a similar policy? Absolutely not, but I think it's still a telling example of how silly the current system is.
In Canada, we have a similar system as the U.S., however not paid 60% less than minimum wage but more like 90% of the minimum wage - yet it's still seen as pretty much mandatory to pay a 15% minimum tip. There's a small restaurant which states on the door as well as on the menu that tipping is [B]not[/B] mandatory, and that the employees get paid above minimum wage. It begs customers to only tip if they got exceptional service. The owner is there 6 days a week, all of the employees are incredibly happy, and people still tip a majority of the time because the employees are still delivering excellent service. If you don't tip, no one gives a shit because the employees are paid properly, the owner runs his restaurant well under the 1/3 rule, and customers are made well aware of that.
A few other restaurants have adopted this policy in my city and everyone from the customers to the people having to pay higher wages are happy. Employees aren't stressed about trying to get tips, customers aren't annoyed about having to pay tips on top of their meals, and the service has only gotten better. Restaurants that are run properly aren't going to go under if the U.S. switched their policies tomorrow and forced them to pay minimum wage, waiters and waitresses aren't going to complain that they are no longer getting paid $2.50 and have to try to live off of tips, and customers won't give a shit about a 10-15% increase in their bills if they aren't viewed as cheap fucks for not tipping.
EDIT:
This policy is so far out of the norm even in Canada it's ridiculous. This particular restaurant has gotten province wide small business awards and entrepreneur awards majorly because the owner decided to take these steps to treat his employees properly
One problem I imagine with trying to 'fix' the waiter's wage problem is that it might leave waiters (especially the better waiters) worse off. So sure, the government could raise the waiter's wage to $7.25 per hour, but then tipping might no longer be seen as a thing people need to do, so waiters won't get anything extra on-top of their wage. But the thing is, what if under the current system, that waiters are earning more than the full minimum wage because of tips? If a waiter serves two customers in an hour, and they each tip $4, that's $10.13 for that hour. Compared to only receiving $7.25 per hour.
I still wouldn't visit a restaurant in America as I disagree with the practice. But it's not a problem that is easily fixed.
At my job I get paid minimum wage plus [B]optional[/B] tips if people want to leave them, and I make drinks mostly. I don't see why all other jobs aren't like this. Also your sob story has no real effect on me, I go through similar shit and I don't demand extra money. I make sure to sincerely thank customers everytime I get a tip because they did me a kind gesture.
[QUOTE=Rufia;50070635]Yes, but why is the employer not required to pay you minimum wage outright?
Tips should complementary, i.e. on top of everything else. Tips should not be for paying someone's basic wage.[/QUOTE]
By all accounts it's just a dumb leftover from the American diner culture of the 40s and 50s. Why it's been allowed to stick around so long and become such an issue is anybody's guess.
People make way too big a deal of tipping. Just tip a few dollars (I usually do 3 or 4) and you're good to go.
What is it with America and demonizing customers(and not the employers of that stupidly shitty wage) who don't tip, maybe get a better job because even shitty fast food pays better than whatever you are making .
It's not tipping if it's expected
[QUOTE=Kommodore;50070527]on behalf of all waiters, cooks, bartenders, baristas and so on who heretofore have been using your tips to improve their lives and who hereafter many of you will no longer be tipping because you watched a funny video on youtube i'd like to thank you for taking a moral stand. the world is sure to heed your selfless call to action.[/QUOTE]
That's the most overly dramatic post I've seen in a while, maybe go cool down
[QUOTE=Kommodore;50070527]on behalf of all waiters, cooks, bartenders, baristas and so on who heretofore have been using your tips to improve their lives and who hereafter many of you will no longer be tipping because you watched a funny video on youtube i'd like to thank you for taking a moral stand. the world is sure to heed your selfless call to action.[/QUOTE]
talk about being part of the problem. tipping is a terrible thing that shouldn't exist in a 'civilized' culture, its awkward as fuck, can hurt relationships, and cause these types of situations to happen. if companies rose the prices of meals, and rose the wage of staff, it would be perfectly...normal? like literally any other occupation around the world. dont blame people for your employer screwing you over, blame your employer, and yourself if you continue to work there and do nothing but complain about people not tipping when YOU do nothing about it.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;50070150]i just got home from my service job and i want to punch a good deal of you in the throat[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kommodore;50070527]on behalf of all waiters, cooks, bartenders, baristas and so on who heretofore have been using your tips to improve their lives and who hereafter many of you will no longer be tipping because you watched a funny video on youtube i'd like to thank you for taking a moral stand. the world is sure to heed your selfless call to action.[/QUOTE]
OK, congratulations, you have so far managed to contribute absolutely nothing to the conversation [I]at all.[/I] Across several posts.
Look, I don't give a shit how much you and all your waiter friends want to beat us up because we don't think tipping should exist. Frankly, I never said I don't tip. In fact, I [I]do[/I] tip, always. And I try to be generous. Y'know, because I'm an empathetic human being. Most everything in here has been shitting on tipping as a system, not saying the system should stay as it is and we shouldn't tip at the same time.
Tell me, have you ever grocery shopped? Did you ever ask any stocker for directions? Did you ever pull them away to help you find something? Did you ever just decide you didn't want or couldn't afford something so you just flopped it on the shelf? Dropped and broken or spilled something? I bet you fucking have.
Then on behalf of all stockers and other grocery store employees, I want to punch you in the throat.
You're taking up our valuable time dealing with your bullshit because you're too lazy or whatever to put things where they belong or find shit yourself. I have half the fucking store to stock and sort, and my absolute back breaking fastest when uninterrupted is barely enough for the never-satisfied managers. None of us can work fast enough. So when you pull shit like that you're fucking me out of my time and my time is my job because they will not hesitate to fire me for not meeting their standards. Because you approached me it's going to take a precious 5 minutes out of my busy schedule to deal with something you could have done yourself but didn't want to, and I might have to deal with getting shit from my bosses because of you. But you never considered that did you?
Except, wait, I don't want to punch you in the throat, because I'm not bitter, or even angry. I'm not even going to spit in your fucking groceries which you guys all act so self righteous about when you do it to our food. I never begrudged customers for doing any of that and I wouldn't begrudge you for walking in and doing any of it. I don't expect the entire world to care about the problems stockers have to deal with. I don't make demands of my customers and treat people like dog shit if they don't follow them.
You have probably done something that has been rude, or fucked some worker over in nearly every type of business you've interacted with, without realizing it. Because EVERY TYPE OF WORKER has their problems. Nobody cares about the majority of us. But everyone's supposed to have a bleeding heart because someone didn't want to tip the poor poor waiter, and you're gonna be all shitty and act like you have some right to treat them like shit? Frankly, if that's the attitude you're going to have, fuck your tip.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;50070297]Also, for the waiters in this thread, have you ever actually talked to your bosses about making under minimum wage? I haven't seen any of you provide a response your boss has actually given you.
It's super easy just to forget or accidentally overlook the payment of a single employee. You're definitely not going to get paid your dues if you just let it go by without saying anything. And unless your boss is a huge dick that isn't afraid of lawsuits, chances are it'll go over fine without much fuss.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't be surprised if the response was a pink slip. Let's be frank, wait staff are replaceable. That's part of how restaurants get away with paying two bucks and change per hour. They rely on massive employee turnover to keep the status quo, rely on there always being people desperate for [i]any[/i] work that they can just replace waiters that complain about the crappy pay.
Isn't limited to just foodservice, either. I'm in retail hell and I know damn well I'm replaceable. It's why I'm trying to get out of retail hell.
[QUOTE=gufu;50070374]A lot of people who work those jobs, indeed work there because there is nothing better or in fact, at all. There is a reason those people work there, and not because they want to. You can keep looking, but that does not pay the bills. Working does.
[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT4vhl8slbE"]Seriously you fuck, if you can tell that I can find a job, THEN GO AND FIND ME ONE YOU ASSHOLE![/URL]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming / video reply / get a job" - Craptasket))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
Why do I always see this stupid argument.
Facepunch is not your mum, find your own job.
I'm so surprised at the people saying that they only get paid $2.50 at their jobs for service, I was offered a barista job a few months back that paid above minimum wage in this state AND that came with possible tips/a free lunch that the hotel I'd work at would provide me. And that would have been my first job too if I had taken it, so I wasn't getting paid more for prior experience or anything.
My aunt has worked as a waitress herself for a while and I don't ever recall her saying that she got paid [I]that[/I] low. She said she really could use the tips at times, but she still got paid somewhat decently by the hour. But she should have gotten paid more because of how well she does service.
I don't mind tipping as many people have said in this thread especially when you get exceptional service and good people that service you but goddamn it makes me anxious sometimes when I have to figure out how much I should tip people because I can extremely self conscious and don't want to be 'that person' who gives bad tips (like if my tip is only 10% of my service/meal whatever) but I also don't want to be that person who doesn't tip at all.
[editline]4th April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoobieWafer223;50070524] Those people who say "I don't get tipped for being a <stocker, welder, cashier, etc>. Why do you deserve it?" mostly because 99.9% of the time, you aren't interfacing with customers directly as much as servers/waiters/bartenders do.[/QUOTE]
Wait what. Are you serious? Sure I might not interact very much with the customers that only buy one thing that come through my lane, but in the four months I've been working at my job I now recognize regular customers and they recognize me and we will talk a lot and interact while I ring up their groceries. Hell, I do that with a [i]lot[/i] of people throughout the day, sure it might be interactions that aren't more than two minutes on average but it still counts. I get a lot of face time with several people a day.
And don't get me started on seniors or people who will ring up 100$+ more with groceries. I could be there a long time dealing with people (sometimes cranky or rude customers) because of that alone. I have to bag their groceries too as well as check them out and that can take some time too depending on what they want their shit in and how much they've got. Also depending on what payment method they use, for example a check, can take time too because they spend time writing the check out then I have to feed it through a machine and wait for it.
How much face time do servers really spend with customers sometimes? The last restaurant I went to with my dad two weeks ago the waitress we had literally only spent like three minutes with us at most. Maybe not even. She talked to us three times and that was it. Bartenders I could understand since they have to stay stationed at their bar and interact with customers, but servers can be all over the place depending on where they are at.
all I do is interact with people and give individuals great customer service, I don't expect a tip because it's my job... The restaurant biz needs to reconsider its practices, and take away tipping altogether someday.
But since it's such a deeply rooted social norm, I doubt it'll happen fast enough. Thank god it's optional, but it still comes with consequences. :saddowns: I just can't support this sort of way this business is run.
[QUOTE=NoobieWafer223;50070524]Those people who say "I don't get tipped for being a <stocker, welder, cashier, etc>. Why do you deserve it?" mostly because 99.9% of the time, you aren't interfacing with customers directly as much as servers/waiters/bartenders do.[/QUOTE]
I can't speak for welders and cashiers because I haven't been either but as far as stocking goes, I think you're completely incorrect.
During the night shift it's less of an issue but during the day, especially around afternoon for stockers, it is absolute back to back. While I was on day shift I found it difficult to get any work done because every minute someone needed something. If I wasn't approached, it was company policy for me to ask everyone who came near me if they needed assistance, and often, I'd find myself running in to someone who needs help, then on my way back, someone in need of help stops me, and then on my way back from [I]that[/I] I get stopped again. And that's at a small Walmart. I interacted with customers very frequently and Walmart takes a 'you are crucial in the customer's experience so you better engage every single one of them you see' policy.
[QUOTE=NoobieWafer223;50070524]
All-in-all... I think tipping is just an extra way of saying "Thank you for going all over the restaurant to bring me my food so I didn't have to and also adhering to my every whim and demand while constantly trying to lick the shit off the bottom of my shoe."[/QUOTE]
A thank you for doing your job? Do waiters do a song and dance over there? Most of the time waiters here just take your order, come back 20 minutes later to serve you and then leave you alone. Maybe refill your water.
In fact it's annoying if they do any more because you're interrupting my meal.
Tipping is fucked up, but as long as servers in my country are getting paid a fucking third of minimum wage, I don't see myself having much of a choice. I'm not gonna let someone go home with around ten fucking dollars for 5 hours of work.
I wish it would stop, but it's out of my hands.
[QUOTE=_Axel;50070197]So that's how you do things in the west?
You just let employers break the law and do whatever they please? What's stopping them from not paying you altogether?
[B]What are unions? What are class-action lawsuits?[/B][/QUOTE]
Things that get you fired instantly. Have you not heard of the unionization horror stories in the US? It's dismal. Companies dont fuck with anyone who wants standard employee rights because theres plenty of people who will take the job and not care. Workers rights in the US are a joke lol, if you brought this attitude that you have to the US you would never sustain a job for more than a year, tops.
[QUOTE=NoobieWafer223;50070524]I used to be a server at a bowling alley and made only $5/hr, strictly on the basis that its an entertainment center and not everyone will order something and tip. I have, as a matter of fact, went to my manager(s) and wanted to know if it was possible to NOT get paid that shitty wage and their response was shrugging at me, making the ":\" face and going "Sorry." Mostly because its not in their control either. They would also recommend that I try a different job within the center, like a cook or mechanic. I don't control what wages the company made for their employers, a lot of it is just a set base for all centers and that's that. End of story.
Trust me, I would have LOVED to march up to the CEO of AMF and demand a higher wage or abolish the tipping system completely but I know that he would have just laughed in my face and told me to fuck off. Sure, the customer isn't responsible for the minimum we make, but neither are we, sadly. I'm pretty sure at this point that if people kept demanding a higher wage and it worked, this wouldn't even a problem anymore. Fact is, it DOESN'T. People don't fucking care, its all about the green-backs, baby, and if they have to make their employees suffer for it; they will.
Even at $5/hr my paychecks would be about $100-$140 bi-weekly with about $200-$300 a week from tips. On average, that amounts to being MAYBE -$200 from a regular minimum wage budget. Serving is a shitty job because you have to work with shitty people. Those people who say "I don't get tipped for being a <stocker, welder, cashier, etc>. Why do you deserve it?" mostly because 99.9% of the time, you aren't interfacing with customers directly as much as servers/waiters/bartenders do.
I was always told to "leave my problems at the door" simply because if I came in grumpy, depressed, or had some sort of personal problem that it would impact my tips because no one likes anyone that's gloomy serving them. I wasn't allowed to have a break, or a break-down for that matter, simply because my personality played into it A LOT more than most jobs do. And not every customer will be satisfied simply because they're just picky fuckholes, or greedy, or just feel the same way that everyone does in this thread (minus those who KNOW how it is, bless your hearts)
When you don't tip, you're not fighting the system. You're making your server suffer because you just don't feel its right. I don't think its fair either, it isn't your responsibility to pay my wages, I feel you, but I don't have any control over that. If you don't want to tip, then don't go out to eat. Before I was a server, I would BARELY tip at all simply because I just didn't have the extra to spare. AFTER being a server and knew their pain, I would tip $10 minimum rather the service was good or bad because I know how difficult it can be, personally.
For those who say "Oh, get another job then!"... Believe me, dude, I would have LOVED [B]LOVED[/B] [I]LOVED[/I] to; but sadly, it just isn't that easy. I didn't even properly GET my job, it was basically handed to me because my brother worked at the same place and told them that I needed a job and they hired me. That was, of course, after scowering all over the place I could and applying to countless places to no avail and leaving that as my LAST RESORT. Right now I'm unemployed and STILL can't get a proper job because no one is hiring or I don't quite meet their high standards.
All-in-all... I think tipping is just an extra way of saying "Thank you for going all over the restaurant to bring me my food so I didn't have to and also adhering to my every whim and demand while constantly trying to lick the shit off the bottom of my shoe."[/QUOTE]
Instead of writing this post you should have filed a lawsuit for being underpaid. "being shrugged at" isnt a valid response for being paid an average of 5$ hourly with tips, by law they need to make up the difference between that and minimum wage.
why is it that saying "just get a better job" in this thread gets you showered in agrees, but in that other thread, people were non-stop ragging on starpluck or whatever for saying the exact same thing
[QUOTE=NoobieWafer223;50070524]Serving is a shitty job because you have to work with shitty people. Those people who say "I don't get tipped for being a <stocker, welder, cashier, etc>. Why do you deserve it?" mostly because 99.9% of the time, you aren't interfacing with customers directly as much as servers/waiters/bartenders do.[/QUOTE]
i used to be a cleaner in a hotel where i had to clean somebodies shit and make sure the facilities were all nice for the next bastard to come along
when waiters just have to put up with a customers shit, instead of literally pumping it out of the toilet with a plunger, that's where your whole argument comes to pieces
it's a bizarre and archaic system. americans like to go on about how free and equal their society is, and then they have tipping like its the fucking middle ages and use social coercion to bully people into paying several groups of badly paid workers the wages that their employers owe them
as far as i'm concerned if its optional, i'm not going to pull out the calculator and figure out 23.45% of the cost of my meal (adding up all of the various factors that come into play) just so that americans feel like they are freed from some stupid archaic "tradition" that barely began about 80 years ago
serving staff get pissed off at the wrong people (he didn't tip me? i'll spit in his food next time the cunt), which kind of explains why america is filled with millions of badly paid workers
You're not always meant to tip if the server does a bad job you shouldn't tip at all if the server does a good job I just tip 20% this is only in America, in the rest of the world I just do what Grade said an usually give the difference in change.
[QUOTE=Pandamox;50070464]Prices rise 10-15% to accommodate higher wages, employees get paid what they deserve, and consumers are paying roughly the same amount as before. I see no problem with this and neither does pretty much every country outside of the U.S.[/QUOTE]
I've literally never met a waiter who would rather get paid a set wage than get their current tips because they know they would end up making less money. There's no way waiters are going to get paid the ~$20 per hour after tip income that many mid-range restaurant waiters end up making with tips. (That's a 6 hour shift with $3/h set wage and ~$100 in tips. For clarities sake, that's 10 tables at $50 a table and 20% tip. It's nothing crazy. It's extremely common for a waiter to have 15+ tables in one shift.)
You get rid of tips and these same waiters are probably going to make anywhere from minimum wage to $12/h MAX. The customers will end up paying more for the food and the waiters will never end up seeing the difference.
It's definitely up to debate whether waiters in Canada work hard enough to earn that extra money you're socially obligated to provide, but I'll keep tipping regardless of what I think.
I used to work at a busy burger cafe making a teensy bit above minimum wage where I would take the customer's orders, make the food, and walk it out to them, and I only ever got tipped twice while doing that for two years. You know why? Because doing those things was my [I]job[/I]. Sure, it wasn't a fancy restaurant, but I was still doing the same work, and possibly more, than a regular waiter or server does.
Don't take this post as complaining that I didn't get paid enough. I was fine with what I was being paid; any shmuck on the street could've walked in and did the job I was doing. But it's definitely questionable whether waiters or servers should be getting the money they do. Believe me, I've had a few friends who have worked in relatively high end restaurants as FoH staff, and they've told me that the money they make is ludicrous.
The more I hear of the tipping system in America and how people try to justify it, the more I seem to find myself opposed to the concept of tipping altogether, mainly because the arguments in favour of perpetuating it seem to be really shoddy. I don't know if it's because I'm a European but it's an exceptionally bizarre and alien thing
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50071973]The more I hear of the tipping system in America and how people try to justify it, the more I seem to find myself opposed to the concept of tipping altogether, mainly because the arguments in favour of perpetuating it seem to be really shoddy. I don't know if it's because I'm a European but it's an exceptionally bizarre and alien thing[/QUOTE]
How about this: nobody gets hurt! The employees get to make more than they would otherwise and the customers end up paying about what they would have paid anyway.
[QUOTE=sgman91;50071979]How about this: nobody gets hurt! The employees get to make more than they would otherwise and the customers end up paying about what they would have paid anyway.[/QUOTE]
Maybe just having a different wage system in place would be better. Tipping seems like such an archaic practice
To those that think lawsuits are super expensive courtroom wars, depending on the state you're in and how much you've lost in wages, you should be able to take it to small claims court. Filing the suit is usually less than $200 or so.
All most people need is decent knowledge of wage laws in your state, and hard evidence that you've been fucked out of your wages. If you have some reliable hard evidence and you're not a pathological liar, chances are you'll win what you're owed.
If you work for a big corporate chain, then file complaints to the appropriate authorities. A lawsuit won't do much to help you, unfortunately.
I'm not a lawyer, I just want people to know that there's options other than the traditional lawsuit. People throwing in the towel and giving up without even trying is something I hate seeing.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50072004]Maybe just having a different wage system in place would be better. Tipping seems like such an archaic practice[/QUOTE]
Being "archaic" isn't a reason. As a side note, wages are even more archaic than tipping.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;50072004]Maybe just having a different wage system in place would be better. Tipping seems like such an archaic practice[/QUOTE]
what's more archaic about exchanging money for services than exchanging money for services?
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