[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51717325]I don't remember seeing [I]this many[/I] protests when obama was elected. A bunch of petty idiots trying to discredit Obama's presidency with the whole birth-certificate nonsense, but people didn't regroup in these amounts, across the world, to complain about the new leader of America being a black democrat.
There was just as much fear-mongering, just on the other direction, but people weren't quite as physical nor quite as self-righteous, at least as far as I remember. I may just plain remember wrong though.[/QUOTE]
Maybe if they had an actual reason to protest they would have, but a march on Washington with people demanding a white president would be futile and petty, and scary to be honest, I'm sure even they realize this.
Activity of ideologues changes.
So in the last 8 years has the violence come more from the left or right? And if it's the right could you show some counter examples that would compare/exceed to what we see from left today?
[QUOTE=Tudd;51717569]Activity of ideologues changes.
So in the last 8 years has the violence come more from the left or right? And if it's the right could you show some counter examples that would compare/exceed to what we see from left today?[/QUOTE]
Lets just take it for granted that more violence has come from left-leaning groups and individuals. What is your point?
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51717696]Lets just take it for granted that more violence has come from left-leaning groups and individuals. What is your point?[/QUOTE]
Considering there is no comparable examples that exist to compare right-wing violence to the left of today's politics and history, my point is that the activity of the ideologues is dynamic and changes. This is easily obvious when you see both groups can spike in more violence in history like for the Left Communist movements, Jim Jones, ALF, a great deal of riots in history, or for the right Fascist movements, KKK, Neo-nazis, Theocratic movements. Left or Right it doesn't really matter. There isn't a inherently worse group when both have proven a hefty death toll come along with disagreements.
So right now were experiencing a heightened amount of violence from the left at this time and recent history. That's my point. Not comparable to any of those regimes I listed, but the point is one is not innately worse/better than the other.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51717724]Considering there is no comparable examples that exist to compare right-wing violence to the left of today's politics and history, my point is that the activity of the ideologues is dynamic and changes. This is easily obvious when you see which group is being more violent in history like mass Communists Russia/China or Nazis in Germany. Left or Right it doesn't really matter. There isn't a inherently worse group when both have proven a hefty death toll come along with disagreements.
So right now were experiencing a heightened amount of violence from the left at this time and recent history. That's my point. Not comparable to any of those regimes I listed, but the point is one is not innately worse/better than the other.[/QUOTE]
Solid point
[QUOTE=Judas;51716953]lighting an innocent stranger's hair on fire is not the same as punching an open admitted neo-nazi leader[/QUOTE]
Neither are okay.
[QUOTE=Judas;51716953]lighting an innocent stranger's hair on fire is not the same as punching an open admitted neo-nazi leader[/QUOTE]
My father is in the NRA. Does that make him a Nazi?
My cousins live on a farm and small town?
Does that make them a Nazi?
The problem validating violence due to someone holding views you dislike quickly becomes from targeting dangerous people to "people who slightly annoy me due to tribal diffeeences".
It quickly becomes a cop out for abuse by those who are paranoid and unstable who see the worst in the most of benign people.
Can we instead discuss how fucked up it is that someone tried to outright harm a person just because of a political view?
[QUOTE=Guriosity;51717864]My father is in the NRA. Does that make him a Nazi?
My cousins live on a farm and small town?
Does that make them a Nazi?
The problem validating violence due to someone holding views you dislike quickly becomes from targeting dangerous people to "people who slightly annoy me due to tribal diffeeences".
It quickly becomes a cop out for abuse by those who are paranoid and unstable who see the worst in the most of benign people.[/QUOTE]
here's the thing
I dont support punching republicans, punching people who just disagree with me, punching rednecks, etc
richard spencer is an actual, literal, nazi fascist that supports ethnic cleansing and genocide
fuck him
edit: let me post someone else's argument thats more articulate than mine
[img]http://68.media.tumblr.com/63004fbad0c4c407c6c972ae46274c93/tumblr_ok8mbsDQam1r42s8uo1_540.png[/img]
[img]http://68.media.tumblr.com/ec3e84c884b4ed13d5900417cbe72671/tumblr_ok8mbsDQam1r42s8uo4_540.png[/img]
[img]http://68.media.tumblr.com/bd839e5cfe48f57e0d37144a49899534/tumblr_ok8mbsDQam1r42s8uo3_540.png[/img]
[img]http://68.media.tumblr.com/eb4c1ab5bc0e2c1bcfdca953ca162cf4/tumblr_ok8mbsDQam1r42s8uo2_540.png[/img]
[quote]Fifty-six percent of domestic terrorist attacks and plots in the U.S. since 1995 have been perpetrated by right-wing extremists, as compared to 30 percent by ecoterrorists and 12 percent by Islamic extremists. Right-wing extremism has been responsible for the greatest number of terrorist incidents in the U.S. in 13 of the 17 years since the Oklahoma City bombing.[/quote]
[URL]https://thinkprogress.org/chart-17-years-after-oklahoma-city-bombing-right-wing-extremism-is-significant-domestic-terror-805653857c40#.sh0or620e[/URL]
There was also that time a few years ago where sovereign citizen militias were ranked more dangerous than Islamic Jihadists on the FBI domestic Terror watchlist.
[URL]https://news.vice.com/article/move-over-jihadists-sovereign-citizens-seen-as-americas-top-terrorist-threat[/URL]
Have something about 2015 anti-abortion violence too
[quote]In the wake of CMP’s accusations, incendiary rhetoric filled legislative bodies, social media, and the public debate, which fueled violence by extremists. Fringe anti-abortion activists unleashed a wave of attacks on abortion providers across the country. In the five months after the first video was released, Planned Parenthood clinics suffered four arson attacks, one violent break-in, and a mass shooting – killing three people and injuring nine.[/quote]
[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?_r=0[/URL]
Oh and here's something about black hate crime
[quote]In 2015, law enforcement agencies reported that 4,029 single-bias hate crime offenses were motivated by race/ethnicity/ancestry. Of these offenses:
52.7 percent were motivated by anti-Black or African American bias.
[/quote]
[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2015-hate-crime-statistics-released[/URL]
The difference in leftist violence and right violence is that leftists typically get into groups and damage property, riot, and attack people usually in reaction to some current affair. Right wing attacks are usually lone wolf hate crimes which aren't labelled by their political ideology so they don't make the headlines as right-wing violence.
[QUOTE=nox;51717906][URL]https://thinkprogress.org/chart-17-years-after-oklahoma-city-bombing-right-wing-extremism-is-significant-domestic-terror-805653857c40#.sh0or620e[/URL]
There was also that time a few years ago where sovereign citizen militias were ranked more dangerous than Islamic Jihadists on the FBI domestic Terror watchlist.
Have something about 2015 anti-abortion violence too
[URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?_r=0[/URL]
Here's something about black hate crime
[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2015-hate-crime-statistics-released[/URL]
The difference in leftist violence and right violence is that leftists typically get into groups and damage property, riot, and attack people usually in reaction to some current affair. Right wing attacks are usually lone wolf hate crimes which aren't labelled by their political ideology so they're not as easy to identify as right wing violence.[/QUOTE]
Are there any numbers on actual violence? I don't know what is encompassed in "domestic terrorist attacks and plots". I've seen definitions like that before which included vandalism or simple verbal "hate speech", and these are portrayed as equal to 9/11. So even though 9/11 totally tips the scale of terrorist attack casualties, the quantity of "right wing" attacks appears larger, even though their effect is minuscule in comparison.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51717946]Are there any numbers on actual violence? I don't know what is encompassed in "domestic terrorist attacks and plots". I've seen definitions like that before which included vandalism or simple verbal "hate speech", and these are portrayed as equal to 9/11. So even though there 9/11 totally tips the scale of terrorist attack casualties, the quantity of "right wing" attacks appears larger, even though their effect is minuscule in comparison.[/QUOTE]
I don't have numbers, but there's a lot more than vandalism going on to get them on the FBI domestic terror watchlist.
Oh wait, there's a full list of attacks from 2010-2014 at the bottom of this page
[URL]http://reason.com/blog/2015/02/25/homeland-security-sovereign-citizens[/URL]
[QUOTE=Judas;51717899]here's the thing
I dont support punching republicans, punching people who just disagree with me, punching rednecks, etc
richard spencer is an actual, literal, nazi fascist that supports ethnic cleansing and genocide
fuck him
edit: let me post someone else's argument thats more articulate than mine
[URL="https://twitter.com/meakoopa/status/823319604386791424"]*twitter thread*[/URL][/QUOTE]
You lost me with this one:
[quote]u can't even articulate WHY they are unreasonable bc to articulate WHY they are unreasonable is to itself open the possibility of reason.[/quote]
How do you even say something like this with a straight face? This sounds worse than religious fundamentalism.
Who decides what beliefs are ok to hold? Who decides what constitutes a Nazi/fascist? Why can't this attitude be taken against socialism? There is no objective standard here. It just starts sliding into tyranny.
[QUOTE=Judas;51717899]here's the thing
I dont support punching republicans, punching people who just disagree with me, punching rednecks, etc
richard spencer is an actual, literal, nazi fascist that supports ethnic cleansing and genocide
fuck him
[/QUOTE]
And what did punching him solve?
I never heard of the man before it. All it did was spread his name and his views. I mean hell im a little lenient on what i'd consider the line in which im fine with clocking someone but in that context, in that video, he wasnt doing anything deserving of a punch. And in general, beyond him, not even attempting dialogue before committing a crime is only going to make things worse and these peoples resolves stronger.
No, punching him was not the right thing to do in that situation, stop trying to make it seem like it was.
[editline]23rd January 2017[/editline]
And again with the irony in calling someone a fascist whilst also saying its totally fine to break the law and do physical acts of violence because of a differing, no matter how ethically or morally wrong, opinion or viewpoint. Theres a stunning lack of self awareness.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51717325]I don't remember seeing [I]this many[/I] protests when obama was elected. A bunch of petty idiots trying to discredit Obama's presidency with the whole birth-certificate nonsense, but people didn't regroup in these amounts, across the world, to complain about the new leader of America being a black democrat.
There was just as much fear-mongering, just on the other direction, but people weren't quite as physical nor quite as self-righteous, at least as far as I remember. I may just plain remember wrong though.[/QUOTE]
I don't remember anything like this but there was a bunch of backwoods racist who burned effigies of obama and hung him. But it was on their own property i believe it gained some attention but didn't mean much I don't think.
I get why Trump is so threatening to people. But attacking other people is not the right way about this in any shape or form. Sadly no one seems to get this because it is a continuous back and forth tit for tat type deal.
Out of all these protests and all the attacks what have they accomplished besides making people bitter? They're not doing anything. They're not challenging the establishment.
The right doesn't generally do the whole mass protest thing. The closest they got was the Tea Party, but that was a lot more politically focused, and I don't remember any that got violent.
[QUOTE=pentium;51716933]What told you that?
We literally have another member here who made an avatar out of someone getting punched.
[B]Arguably he deserved it and people here say it's okay he got punched,[/B] but otherwise you shouldn't go about punching people you don't agree with, even if they are also ethically, logically, racially or politically in the wrong.
Likewise it's equally asshole to be trying to light people's hair on fire. You're no better than them.[/QUOTE]
I can't really remember anyone here thinking it was okay that he got punched, it was more that people tried to point out why he got punched and were then labeled as victim blamers.
can we stop generalising leftists thanks
i don't condone any of this shit
(same goes for right leaning people, don't generalise them either)
[editline]24th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Judas;51717899]here's the thing
I dont support punching republicans, punching people who just disagree with me, punching rednecks, etc
richard spencer is an actual, literal, nazi fascist that supports ethnic cleansing and genocide
fuck him
[/QUOTE]
but then you're just doing the same thing only justifying it by saying that the line that he had to cross for you to punch him could not be crossed by simply being a trump supporter
Kinda sickening how her friend saw her attempting to light the girl's hair on fire with a lighter and just instantly ignores it. What a shitfuck.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51717074]Liberals have long held to the philosophy of "don't punch left". They never properly criticizes the extremists on their side. This has led to the general perception of the political arena to greatly favor the left. Meanwhile the right has always policed their extremists.
I've learned recently not to punch right. It doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
this is just so juvenile. for someone who so often calls people out for parading conjecture around as absolute truth, you sure do a lot of it yourself
[QUOTE=paul simon;51718443]I can't really remember anyone here thinking it was okay that he got punched, it was more that people tried to point out why he got punched and were then labeled as victim blamers.[/QUOTE]
Dude, you've got one in this very thread. And at least 5 other people in the other thread.
[editline]24th January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Judas;51716953]lighting an innocent stranger's hair on fire is not the same as punching an open admitted neo-nazi leader[/QUOTE]
The same exact logic though. "It's okay to assault someone I disagree with". It's like saying stealing a car is different than stealing a phone. Yeah no shit the scope is different but it's stealing in both cases. We are making an argument that stealing is wrong and should never be done while you are arguing that it's okay in some cases because you hate thieves so much.
Generationisations of anything is extremely dangerous.
All I hope is that the girl will eventually be alright and that one violent protester will be in jail for a very long time.
[QUOTE=Judas;51716953]lighting an innocent stranger's hair on fire is not the same as punching an open admitted neo-nazi leader[/QUOTE]
They're both assault. Do either, your ass deserves to be thrown in jail.
[QUOTE=.Vel;51719108]They're both assault. Do either, your ass deserves to be thrown in jail.[/QUOTE]
no man its okay you should be able to suckerpunch people and get away with it
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51717074]Liberals have long held to the philosophy of "don't punch left". They never properly criticizes the extremists on their side. This has led to the general perception of the political arena to greatly favor the left. Meanwhile the right has always policed their extremists.
I've learned recently not to punch right. It doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
Honestly during the presidential campaign up until now I feel the exact opposite. Ivory tower elitism definitely exists on the left but I find them consistently more introspective and self-critical than the right, particularly when it came to the presidential race.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51717074]Liberals have long held to the philosophy of "don't punch left". They never properly criticizes the extremists on their side. This has led to the general perception of the political arena to greatly favor the left. Meanwhile the right has always policed their extremists.
I've learned recently not to punch right. It doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
You must live in a frightening world to think that liberals are some brainwashed hivemind. Your critique here isn't even focused on any actual arguments held by the left, just an uncitable claim accusing anyone left of dick cheney on the political spectrum of not being self aware enough to criticize their own party when we just went a fucking year of massive campaigning for reform within the party led by people like Bernie Sanders, who might I add is the current voice of moderate liberalism in America. And then you turn around and admit to doing the same exact thing but for some reason it's okay because the right is infallible or something.
Yeah, the guy in the video is a jackass, but you treat this like some definite evidence of you being correct without even listening to what you're saying; claiming to be disappointed by the frankly horrific divide in our country and then copping the same elitist attitude that put us in this situation in the first place.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51717207]I find state communism and cultural marxism just as terrifying as gas chambers.[/QUOTE]
what are you huffing
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51717207]I find state communism and [B]cultural marxism[/B] just as terrifying as gas chambers.[/QUOTE]
the fuck does this even mean? i keep seeing it applied to every goddamn thing, without ever explaining what it is and what it has to do with marxism
like you can't just fuckin put two words that sort of sound fancy together and say you have a point
oh i hate artisan capitalism, i find it as scary as pretentious anarcho-collectivism
:snip:
[QUOTE=paul simon;51718443]I can't really remember anyone here thinking it was okay that he got punched, it was more that people tried to point out why he got punched and were then labeled as victim blamers.[/QUOTE]
I just found out I was talking about an entirely different thread, whoops.
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