• Overwatch Bastion Animated Short Livestream Premiere - August 18th 9AM PDT (12pm EDT)
    104 replies, posted
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;50910606]Overwatch feels more pg-13 than TF2 does.[/QUOTE] It doesn't even feel PG-13 to me. Overwatch's characters feel like they're written for children. [QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;50910701]I never disliked Overwatch dialogue .-. Sure they don't have many flaws but they're supposed to be more like cartoon superheroes. I never expected to see Tracer's space PTSD or get a long speech on Soldier 76's drinking problem or whatever.[/QUOTE] Even superheros tend to have a lot of character depth. Just look at Batman. When I say "flaw" I'm not just talking about some kind of psychological problem or condition. Just aspects of their personality that complicate them. A character can be arrogant, hot-tempered, naive, all sorts of things. Plus some of the characters aren't anything more than pun dispensers; Junkrat and D.Va especially. You may not be bothered by it, but considering how much Blizzard is trying to build their lore with these shorts, you have to admit it's pretty hollow writing.
[QUOTE=The Vman;50910564]A lot of their dialogue feels painfully cliche and bland. The characters all feel really one note and lack any distinct personality. But most of all, I think it's because there's no contrasts in their personalities. An important thing to remember when writing is that a character's strengths are much less interesting than their flaws. Like, take Tracer. She's peppy and jovial. Not really much else to her. She hasn't got anything [I]wrong[/I] with her. Nothing seems to relate to her backstory of being a fighter pilot and science experiment. Not to mention the fact that she's a killer for hire and spends most of her day gunning people down. Why is she so happy and wholesome? In TF2 you've got the Scout, who's also peppy, but he's also brash, arrogant, narcissistic, sarcastic and incredibly irritating to the other characters. Overwatch's characters are basically Saturday morning cartoon characters, with little more depth than G.I. Joe or Cobra Commander. The heroes are wholesome, tough, friendly, and just, and the villains are edgy, sultry, mysterious or crazy. In TF2 characters are self-absorbed, paranoid, hypocritical, incompetent, obsessive, cruel, and overall shitty people, which gives you a whole lot more to work with when writing dialogue for them.[/QUOTE] Ehh, I don't think you're really right here. TF2's characters aren't any deeper or more fleshed-out, they just work better because they don't try and make them to be anything more than that, and don't try to create any drama that would be dissonant with their silliness.
Junkrat and D.Va haven't even had shorts yet though. And puns feel right for D.Va's character since she's basically Overwatch's equivalent of a celebrity MLG gamer. And iunno. The shorts are... short. They allow for a minute or two of buildup and then several of fighting. It doesn't lead to much room for deep character development. What is there though I think you can see some flaws. S76 is obviously a deeply conflicted character of what he wants to be, Tracer is a bit naive and inexperienced, Hanzo is haunted by guilt over Genji, etc.
[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;50910701]I never disliked Overwatch dialogue .-. Sure they don't have many flaws but they're supposed to be more like cartoon superheroes. I never expected to see Tracer's space PTSD or get a long speech on Soldier 76's drinking problem or whatever.[/QUOTE] I think he's saying we need flaws in the same vein as characters like Junkrat. He doesn't have edging tone-breaking flaws, he has funny entertaining flaws that fit the cartoony vibe.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;50910817]Ehh, I don't think you're really right here. TF2's characters aren't any deeper or more fleshed-out, they just work better because they don't try and make them to be anything more than that, and don't try to create any drama that would be dissonant with their silliness.[/QUOTE] I agree that TF2 isn't trying to inject any lore into itself, but I definitely think that just characterization wise, TF2 has much more interesting personalities than Overwatch. Like if you listen to the hero interactions: [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqIKRL_5f6o[/media] They're all just so bland and empty. It's all just them complimenting how great eachother are or being pissy about working with a rival. Most of it is just there to offer more lore exposition rather than have the characters play off one another. It's like that Mr Plinkett test, describe a character without talking about their job or what they look like. What's Phara's character? What's Mei's? Mercy? If TF2 didn't have more interesting characters, then the Meet the Team videos wouldn't have worked at all. Meet the Heavy just a couple minutes of him sitting and talking. There's no story to it, just characterization, and it's so much more interesting than pretty much all of Overwatch's dialogue combined. [editline]18th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;50910827]I think he's saying we need flaws in the same vein as characters like Junkrat. He doesn't have edging tone-breaking flaws, he has funny entertaining flaws that fit the cartoony vibe.[/QUOTE] Not quite. Like I said before, Junkrat is little more than a pun dispenser. His character is "He's crazy and blows things up" with little explanation. TF2's soldier was also crazy, and also blew things up, but his crazy was much more well explored. He lives for war, he loves it. He's the patriotic god-fearing american soldier exaggerated to the point of insanity. He distorts everything to fit with a war narrative. It feels like there's a [I]reason[/I] to why he's the way he is.
[QUOTE=damnatus;50909809]I didn't like it? There was nothing new we didn't know about Bastion. He was a war relic, but now he woke up with his combat directives glitching out. Am I missing something out or the previous short animations actually expanded upon the lore? And graphics-wise it's not exactly fantastic either, nothing more than "well-made". But it's probably because I'm used to CGI trying to be realistic, and Overwatch's style is pretty cartoony. I'm so gonna get shit for this, seeing as the majority absolutely loved it.[/QUOTE] You're right, it doesn't teach us anything new about the character, but that's because teaching us new info isn't the point of the short. The point is to encapsulate the essence of the character, which this does perfectly
i didn't know there were multiple reinhardts maybe im just really behind on lore
[QUOTE=The Vman;50911133]Not quite. Like I said before, Junkrat is little more than a pun dispenser. His character is "He's crazy and blows things up" with little explanation. TF2's Soldier was also crazy, and also blew things up, but his crazy was much more well explored. He lives for war, he loves it. He's the patriotic god-fearing american soldier exaggerated to the point of insanity. He distorts everything to fit with a war narrative. It feels like there's a [I]reason[/I] to why he's the way he is.[/QUOTE] Junkrat was one of many survivors of a nuclear meltdown that struck Australia turning it into an absolute hell, and his character is still played for comedic value most of the time despite that sympathy point although in a very different way (i.e: complete fool who acts like a total trickster in the vein of Silver Age Joker, loves to blow shit up while still getting the job done VS. very zealous crazed mad man of a veteran who loves to kill and will do whatever it takes). Soldier? The comics (specifically Unhappy Returns) made it out that he drank contaminated water which is a reason, major or minor, for his current mental state, and sounds boring in comparison despite the much more polished view of his character. [QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50911486]i didn't know there were multiple reinhardts maybe im just really behind on lore[/QUOTE] Its obvious that Reinhardt's suit wasn't the only one that was made.
[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;50911344]You're right, it doesn't teach us anything new about the character, but that's because teaching us new info isn't the point of the short. The point is to encapsulate the essence of the character, which this does perfectly[/QUOTE] i mean they succeeded with that point, but that's a really shallow goal. they have all the opportunity in the world to make these characters great and they choose otherwise for the sake of cliche. Valve on the other hand shows a great way to take that opportunity and run with it. tf2 doesn't give us anything new with the characters, it encapsulates them well. but it gives us a wide variety of things to look at. Meet the Scout: he tells us about his ego, but we also see how cocky he can be. we see who he is, how he thinks and speaks, how he fights, and we get a good sense of who he is as a person. he's given funny dialogue that lines up with his personality, and overall we get a general sense of his person. Demoman, Engineer, and Heavy are the same. Meet the Soldier gives us the same thing but not directly to the audience, we just get a day in the life of the Soldier, talking to the heads of his enemies. we also see he's dumb but powerful and crazy and a megalomaniac. The only one that's kinda one-track is the Heavy, but that's because Heavy is a one-track personality in the shorts, and it makes sense for him. Heavy is his gun, and he is all about his gun. He loves the gun and nobody fucks with his gun. Once you get to stuff like Meet the Spy, Pyro, Sniper, and Medic, you see more lore in the characters, and those are where the shorts are at their best. Snipers probably the best example of blending the two, and Spy's closest to what Blizzard attempts with their shorts (a day in the life and an explaination of who the character is.) Looking at Overwatch, you either get lore or you get character with their shorts. this is the one about character as it is closer to a day in the life than the others, and it's probably the best out of all of them because blizzards animators and designers are miles better at telling stories compared to their writers. there's also not a lot to talk about with bastion, which is alright for him cause he has no dialogue (robo PTSD is good enough to make the audience care.) in say, the tracer/widowmaker short, we see a situation, not a day in the life. so it's a little more lore heavy, but alright. tracer gets really odd, she's emotional which doesn't really happen in the shorts or in the game, and it feels out of place without being built up properly. hell, i think that scene actually made me dislike her more because it became clear to me after that they don't actually care about her emotions. widowmaker is a badass sniper in the shadows with a french accent, but that's all she is. she doesn't have any depth. no personality to build on. it shows off her abilities and gives you a [I]sense[/I] for who she is, but doesn't actually use who she is to build a stronger short [I]or[/I] a stronger character. they have opportunities but don't take it, resulting in a mediocre film with amazing visuals. the first short is also pretty great cause it defined the characters, but they never built off it. they obviously have the lore but the storytelling is so poor that it doesn't feel right honestly. i know this is a bit of a ramble but I can see where they wanted to go with these characters, they just haven't used them to their fullest extent. I hope you see where I'm coming from, and know this isn't just a "TF2 is better post." fuck it man, i love these characters and their stories, but i can think of several ways where they could do [I]so much better.[/I] soldier 67's short comes CLOSE but it's too edgy and didn't find a good balance, and that girl's story was too focused on. but he's a great character and they could've done so much more. winston also got really close but it got too, i dunno, slapsticky? and reaper did nothing for the plot. he was basically a gi joe villain. you would've been better off not having him in there at all. [QUOTE=Dr. Kyuros;50911638]Junkrat was one of many survivors of a nuclear meltdown that struck Australia turning it into an absolute hell, and his character is still played for comedic value most of the time despite that sympathy point although in a very different way (i.e: complete fool who acts like a total trickster in the vein of Silver Age Joker, loves to blow shit up while still getting the job done VS. very zealous crazed mad man of a veteran who loves to kill and will do whatever it takes). Soldier? The comics (specifically Unhappy Returns) made it out that he drank contaminated water which is a reason, major or minor, for his current mental state, and sounds boring in comparison despite the much more polished view of his character.[/QUOTE] that lore sounds great. but in the shorts, are they going to use that to write the character, and can they do it in a way that makes us feel good about the character? i hope so, but probably not considering their track record. the thing is, these characters have great lore but the shorts are the biggest let-down of all. if they can take their notes from say, mad max (which is a obvious inspiration for his backstory, specifically the character Nux in Fury Road,) then you'd have a great character. Nux is a perfect way to handle him actually, where you start him out as kinda a fodder character who's just another but finds his own way of being human (in the case of Fury Road, he finds romance with one of the girls Max is saving.) You can go nuts with Junkrat [U]AND[/U] allow us to care about him more than just as the "crazy bomb guy" if you give him a good, human goal. or even something shallow but hints at something more, like demoman's family in the Meet the Demoman short (which is investigated more in the comics, and is actually pretty well told there.) there's a lot of good ideas with their inspirations, so hopefully they look into those guys more than just the face value (and percieve their own characters more than face value too.) [editline]j[/editline] as a follow up to my post, i wanna say this short was [I]perfectly[/I] paced. it had a great beginning, middle, and end, and had no fluff or extra characters thrown in there. no extra padding, just straight and to the point. it defined our character, gave him some (emotional) backstory which was well explained and shot (the idea of him hearing a woodpecker and going crazy is absolutely heartbreaking.) and of course, it looked absolutely great and pretty and ugh. this was one of their best, it's too bad their best can only be when they don't have dialogue.
I wonder how many more bastion robots will active or have been activated in overwatch timeline, What's strange is their weapons to combat theses machines were basic assault rifles not something you expect to take down heavily armored mechs. I'm sure there's a perfectly logically explanation that's something like each of their weapons is a mass driver similar to the original mass effect.
[QUOTE=Sims_doc;50911713]I wonder how many more bastion robots will active or have been activated in overwatch timeline[/QUOTE] According to the lore they've given out so far, Bastion E54 is the only one that survived. It's possible that there might be other survivors, but I think it's unlikely.
If anything people would restore them by cannibalizing parts from other robots to rebuild one, given that in this video there's a city nearby with possibality millions of them laying destroyed. Although considering the sheer number of them and the fact that there's no remains of the larger robots or airships that city fell.
[QUOTE=Sims_doc;50911979]If anything people would restore them by cannibalizing parts from other robots to rebuild one, given that in this video there's a city nearby with possibality millions of them laying destroyed. Although considering the sheer number of them and the fact that there's no remains of the larger robots or airships that city fell.[/QUOTE] In Overwatch's lore, the war with the robots was a near apocalyptic situation. Nobody wants to bring them back.
[QUOTE=Fire Kracker;50911486]i didn't know there were multiple reinhardts maybe im just really behind on lore[/QUOTE] Pretty sure that dude was Reinhardt and not someone else.
I'm still interested to find out more about how Bastion ended up in the situation he did with regards to Overwatch. I know it's implied that he avoids civilisation in general, but I don't think even a non-canon game would just inexplicably ram in a character who has absolutely nothing to do with any of the others and has never even seen or heard of any of them (apart from maybe Reinhardt).
[QUOTE=Skyward;50908064]I think that was the best one they've done. Probably because there's no hammy dialogue :v:[/QUOTE] Instead really hammy combat.
[QUOTE=Wolverunder;50908492]When the hell is Blizzard just going to open a film studio?[/QUOTE] Probably never? When other studios fucked up at Activision, they thought it would be good idea of compensation to simply cut 600 jobs at Blizzards film department.
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;50912548]I'm still interested to find out more about how Bastion ended up in the situation he did with regards to Overwatch. I know it's implied that he avoids civilisation in general, but I don't think even a non-canon game would just inexplicably ram in a character who has absolutely nothing to do with any of the others and has never even seen or heard of any of them (apart from maybe Reinhardt).[/QUOTE] Junkrat and Roadhog kind of fit that description tbh. They're kind of just, there.
[QUOTE=ClauAmericano;50912812]Junkrat and Roadhog kind of fit that description tbh. They're kind of just, there.[/QUOTE] Half the cast of Overwatch are mercenaries or vigilantes. It's not far fetched that they would work together with Overwatch or another organization, and the fact that the game is not canon and is just the scrapped remnants of an MMO almost a decade long in the making, ya know. Blizz also said that the new Eichenwald map was meant to be in the game, but they decided to finish Route 66 first. So you can infer that it would have been Bastion and Rein's map in the same way Route 66 is Mcree and 76's, Hanamura is Genji and Hanzo's, ect. [QUOTE=Antimuffin;50912684]Probably never? When other studios fucked up at Activision, they thought it would be good idea of compensation to simply cut 600 jobs at Blizzards film department.[/QUOTE] I didn't know this, damn. Activision was the worst thing to happen to Blizzard since Chris Metzen developed an orc fetish.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;50912658] And you know why Junkrat's back story doesn't stand up to Soldiers? Because it's entirely inconsequential to the character we actually see and listen to in game.[/QUOTE] i played TF2 since beta, and by the time I stopped playing around 2013-2014, soldiers character to me was little more than a brain-damaged patriot (I TELEPORTED BREAD) i'm sure the character has more depth than that, but to say that depth is visible in the character we see and listen to in game is a bit of a stretch to me
Part of the problem here is that TF2s characters and story have been fleshed out over years of comics and shorts. Overwatch isn't really old enough for that yet and TF2 kinda suffered from the same issues when it first started out. Give it a year or two and i'm sure it'll be much better.
Couldn't find the exact comment again, but it was pretty hilarious one about the ending of the short. [QUOTE]Bastion is returning to the forest to give that woodpecker a run for its money.[/QUOTE]
The short was good, but I still can't get over how these have absolutely nothing to do with the game.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;50912849]Half the cast of Overwatch are mercenaries or vigilantes. It's not far fetched that they would work together with Overwatch or another organization, and the fact that the game is not canon and[B] is just the scrapped remnants of an MMO almost a decade long in the making, ya know.[/B] Blizz also said that the new Eichenwald map was meant to be in the game, but they decided to finish Route 66 first. So you can infer that it would have been Bastion and Rein's map in the same way Route 66 is Mcree and 76's, Hanamura is Genji and Hanzo's, ect. I didn't know this, damn. Activision was the worst thing to happen to Blizzard since Chris Metzen developed an orc fetish.[/QUOTE]Had no idea they planned overwatch to be an MMO originally
[QUOTE=Kite_shugo;50913640]Had no idea they planned overwatch to be an MMO originally[/QUOTE] It's actually a pretty interesting story [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq-HwvYjLLg[/media] Makes me hope that one day they go back to the idea, or at least make other games with the Overwatch IP.
It's a bit unfair on OW because it's just started out and hasn't had years to flesh out its characters. There's always time to get different writers to make stories. I mean, Symmetra is more interesting than any TF2 character but they haven't done much with her beyond a really short comic. She's also more interesting than the rest of her team mates though to be fair.
Is the game really noncanon? I mean, Tracer/Winston/Symmetra/Pharah/76/Torb/Mercy/Reinhardt/McCree/Ana/Lucio/Zenyatta were all either Overwatch or potential Overwatch. The Dragon short established that Genji had joined Overwatch (or potentially Blackwatch I guess) and he wanted Hanzo to join him. Bastion could potentially end up helping Overwatch since they're the good guys if they ever found him, so his participation in the game, at least in the new Stuggary map, aren't completely odd. Bad guys with Blackwatch we currently got Reaper, Junkrat, Roadhog, Widowmaker and D.Va and Zarya are sorta neutral (along with Genji and Hanzo I guess. Especially since Hanzo might still want to kill Genji once and for all.) I know when you have Tracer/Tracer/Tracer/Reaper vs. all 76's or whatever then the story obviously goes off the cliff, but if you say, had all the Blackwatch on a team and the other team of Overwatch characters then whatever happens would fit in the story. As the roster expands that'd probably be even more likely.
[QUOTE=The Vman;50910564]A lot of their dialogue feels painfully cliche and bland. The characters all feel really one note and lack any distinct personality. But most of all, I think it's because there's no contrasts in their personalities. An important thing to remember when writing is that a character's strengths are much less interesting than their flaws. Like, take Tracer. She's peppy and jovial. Not really much else to her. She hasn't got anything [I]wrong[/I] with her. Nothing seems to relate to her backstory of being a fighter pilot and science experiment. Not to mention the fact that she's a killer for hire and spends most of her day gunning people down. Why is she so happy and wholesome? In TF2 you've got the Scout, who's also peppy, but he's also brash, arrogant, narcissistic, sarcastic and incredibly irritating to the other characters. Overwatch's characters are basically Saturday morning cartoon characters, with little more depth than G.I. Joe or Cobra Commander. The heroes are wholesome, tough, friendly, and just, and the villains are edgy, sultry, mysterious or crazy. In TF2 characters are self-absorbed, paranoid, hypocritical, incompetent, obsessive, cruel, and overall shitty people, which gives you a whole lot more to work with when writing dialogue for them.[/QUOTE] It's already been established in lore that there definitely are personality flaws with all of the characters. If there weren't then I don't think that Reaper would have shot Soldier 76 in the face over 76 giving someone else a promotion over himself. Widow also used to be completely normal, and it's very clear in the lore that Tracer and Widow have some lesbian hate boner for one another. I mean, all things considered lore wise, there is a reason for the Overwatch crew to be peppy and happy towards one another. They're a team, and they have to work together. There's no room for being a sarcastic, snappy dickhead to the grumpy old german man with the shield protecting your entire squad. I partially agree with you but they are both very different concepts and have gone in very different directions. TF2 was clearly meant to have characters that are direct parodies of various culture and ideas. Overwatch is not, and this is where I agree with you completely. Overwatch definitely is a Saturday morning cartoon, but it still manages to work. They can't be compared like this.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;50912658]And you know why Junkrat's back story doesn't stand up to Soldiers? Because it's entirely inconsequential to the character we actually see and listen to in game.[/QUOTE] It really isn't. He's constantly talking about how much he hates omnics, which is because his home was taken from him by the omnics (or at least he descended from people whose home was taken by the omnics). He has multiple makeshift prosthetics because he's been living in an apocalyptic desert where he had to scrap them together. Literally every sound and animation when you're playing as him reminds you of it. He winces when he drops down a little bit, and his weapon bobs jerkily as he limps. With every voice line you can hear he's unhinged and twitchy, which ties to the backstory with the radiation and toxins in Australia affecting his brain. The way he actually plays is chaotic, just like the character himself. There are far, far more things in the gameplay, dialogue, animations, and sound design that tie Junkrat to his story than there are things that tie Soldier to his story. Which is mostly because Soldier barely has a story. His whole backstory is that he wanted to fight in WWII, but was rejected, and instead went on a killing spree in Germany after the war happened. Now that's a great one-off joke but when you play TF2 do you every REALLY think "I'm playing as a completely insane xenophobic mass-murderer who despises Nazis"? No, you think "I'm playing as a compete idiot who thinks he's a good soldier". Now there's a lot of funny dialogue that can come out of that, but to say that there's more that connects soldier to his backstory in TF2 than there is that connects Junkrat to his in Overwatch is absolutely laughable. I think they only added in one line about soldier's "backstory" literally this year, he's never mentioned it before at all in the 9 years tf2 has been out. When I play Junkrat I DO feel like I'm playing an unhinged chaotic scavenger because his dialogue, character design, and even gameplay, pretty much everything they've done to present him, actually connects to his backstory.
[QUOTE=TheBloodyNine;50917386]Is the game really noncanon? I mean, Tracer/Winston/Symmetra/Pharah/76/Torb/Mercy/Reinhardt/McCree/Ana/Lucio/Zenyatta were all either Overwatch or potential Overwatch. The Dragon short established that Genji had joined Overwatch (or potentially Blackwatch I guess) and he wanted Hanzo to join him. Bastion could potentially end up helping Overwatch since they're the good guys if they ever found him, so his participation in the game, at least in the new Stuggary map, aren't completely odd. Bad guys with Blackwatch we currently got Reaper, Junkrat, Roadhog, Widowmaker and D.Va and Zarya are sorta neutral (along with Genji and Hanzo I guess. Especially since Hanzo might still want to kill Genji once and for all.) I know when you have Tracer/Tracer/Tracer/Reaper vs. all 76's or whatever then the story obviously goes off the cliff, but if you say, had all the Blackwatch on a team and the other team of Overwatch characters then whatever happens would fit in the story. As the roster expands that'd probably be even more likely.[/QUOTE] You got it mostly wrong. Up to this point we only know about two Blackwatch members, McCree and Reyes (Reaper). Blackwatch wasn't some kind of evil organization, it was just Overwatch's Covert Ops, but they did some shady shit (torture, kidnappings, murders, etc etc). Genji joined Overwatch because Angela Ziegler (Mercy) found him half dead after his fight with Hanzo and made him a robot. Overwatch doesn't even exist anymore, and most of the old guard (like 76) would rather it never be recomposed. Lucio is not affiliated to Overwatch (although, did Overwatch still exist, he would surely be) but he's just a Freedom Fighter against the Vishkar Corporation, of which Symmetra is an employee. Symmetra is probably the grayest character in the game, her being not really evil, just dictatorial (sees freedom as chaos) and apathetic. Junkrat and Roadhog are part of the Junkers, mad-max style raiders that formed in the Australian Wasteland. D.va and Zarya are soldiers, respectively for the South Korean and the Russian governments. Hanzo works alone. Reaper and Widowmaker are part of Talon, a terroristic organization. Reaper is probably just a mercenary while Widowmaker was the wife of an overwatch operative, but she was brainwashed to become an assassin by Talon itself. Soldier 76 works alone for whatever he thinks justice is, just like McCree, Ana and Reinhardt. Tracer and Winston want to reform Overwatch.
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